Large electric motors, batteries and vehicles

[cbrarick]

lithium batteries in cars (mostly due to MVAs) as well as bikes, scooters, skate boards and computers are also problematic when paired with cheap replacement chargers without good BMS's. All result in fires that are pretty much unextinguishable.
Tesla is the best with it's coolant acting as an extinguishing agent, however the consensus is to protect exposures and let them burn. It takes tens of thousands of gallons to stop thermal runaway in car batteries, and if you're successful the car should be towed to a quarantine area to sit for 3 weeks before any attempt at scrapping the battery is made.
We've already had a problem with a college student trying to recharge one of those green scooters vice leaving it out for the company to recover and recharge. His charger's BMS wasn't up to the challenge and it overcharged into thermal run-away. I understand that FDNY responds to multiple of these a day.
I was just at a structure fire caused by a cheap computer charger. Some form of regulation is needed.

 

[CalebJ]

lithium batteries in cars (mostly due to MVAs) as well as bikes, scooters, skate boards and computers are also problematic when paired with cheap replacement chargers without good BMS's. All result in fires that are pretty much unextinguishable.
Tesla is the best with it's coolant acting as an extinguishing agent, however the consensus is to protect exposures and let them burn. It takes tens of thousands of gallons to stop thermal runaway in car batteries, and if you're successful the car should be towed to a quarantine area to sit for 3 weeks before any attempt at scrapping the battery is made.
We've already had a problem with a college student trying to recharge one of those green scooters vice leaving it out for the company to recover and recharge. His charger's BMS wasn't up to the challenge and it overcharged into thermal run-away. I understand that FDNY responds to multiple of these a day.
I was just at a structure fire caused by a cheap computer charger. Some form of regulation is needed.

Isn't the BMS on all of those devices supposed to be integrated into the battery itself?

 

[cbrarick]

Isn't the BMS on all of those devices supposed to be integrated into the battery itself?

not always, especially on the cheaper stuff from China.
Incorrect charge voltage can fool some.

doesn't happen all the time, but given the number of lithium batteries, we've satisfied the law of large numbers, and a outlier is found (boom)

I can tell you that this is the topic in fire services - how to extinguish them and keep them out, from small batteries to cars.
https://theloadstar.com/lithium-bat...rent-firefighting-techniques-says-safety-oem/It's also become a shipping headache. It's a major source of loss
https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2022/09/02/312507.htmhttps://hardware.slashdot.org/story...lithium-ion-batteries-burned-more-than-a-week

 

[Greg Furtman]

not always, especially on the cheaper stuff from China.
Incorrect charge voltage can fool some.

doesn't happen all the time, but given the number of lithium batteries, we've satisfied the law of large numbers, and a outlier is found (boom)

I can tell you that this is the topic in fire services - how to extinguish them and keep them out, from small batteries to cars.
https://theloadstar.com/lithium-bat...rent-firefighting-techniques-says-safety-oem/It's also become a shipping headache. It's a major source of loss
https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2022/09/02/312507.htmhttps://hardware.slashdot.org/story...lithium-ion-batteries-burned-more-than-a-week

Nasty stuff I'd say.

 

[Funkworks]

It seems that solid state batteries are now a reality with Amptricity taking orders for Residential & Commercial storage units. And Amptricity replaced a Tesla S battery pack with their own and saw a 97% range increase. The downside is these buggers are expensive.

Excellent news! High cost doesn't surprise me and not a problem at this point. Just seeing them on pre-order is good enough news for me. Not just lab stuff anymore. This is how it starts. Now we'll see their price decrease over time (years). But even lithium-ion and LFP are still too expensive for many. As long as there's progress. The smallest home solid state battery they have is $20k for 12 kWh.
https://www.amptricity.com/order

Incorrect charge voltage can fool some.

I blew a fuse the first time I rented a Leaf. Incorrect current. (no fire, the car was just not fully charged in the morning)

I can tell you that this is the topic in fire services - how to extinguish them and keep them out, from small batteries to cars.

Interesting, I wouldn't even try personally, but maybe pros have better ideas. Much like with propane and gas tanks, I'd just run the other way.

All-electric option on Heart Aerospace's ES-30:

https://heartaerospace.com/es-30/

 

[Cape Byron]

Much like with propane and gas tanks, I'd just run the other way.

Small propane fires, like you would encounter with a small (~4 kg) cylinder while camping, are easily put out with the extinguisher you have already got out of your camper and placed within easy reach. I've extinguished one propane fire of my own and two for other campers in the past few years. No biggie.

If you don't know how to use an extinguisher, you'll learn by practice. Your local fire brigade is there to help you.

If you don't carry an extinguisher (or two) when you're camping, you probably shouldn't be lighting any kind of fire.

 

[Greg Furtman]

Another possibly good and inexpensive battery chemistry.

 

[Funkworks]

Small propane fires, like you would encounter with a small (~4 kg) cylinder while camping, are easily put out with the extinguisher you have already got out of your camper and placed within easy reach. I've extinguished one propane fire of my own and two for other campers in the past few years. No biggie.

If you don't know how to use an extinguisher, you'll learn by practice. Your local fire brigade is there to help you.

If you don't carry an extinguisher (or two) when you're camping, you probably shouldn't be lighting any kind of fire.

Sounds like good advice for campers who use propane. If ever I camp, I'll probably find ways to go without propane and keep the fire extinguisher in the kitchen.


Sysco food delivery receives first of many electric trucks!

https://investors.sysco.com/annual-reports-and-sec-filings/news-releases/2022/11-11-2022-201724373
https://northamerica.daimlertruck.c...sforming-the-future-of-foodservice-2022-05-19
https://freightliner.com/trucks/ecascadia/

 

[Greg Furtman]

A recent look at the BETA Alia.

 

[boatgeek]

There's some interesting "how to build battery enclosures to manage thermal runaway and cell damage events" stuff here: https://shift-cleanenergy.com/technology/

The standard test for cell damage is the nail test--basically drive a nail straight into the cell and see what happens. These cells are built for marine environments, where fire is particularly nasty. Unlike shoreside, you can't just step away and let it burn.

 

[cbrarick]

cool
but we will see losses due to improper charging of batteries go up. I hope it doesn't affect anyone any of us know. (I just got back from chimney fire 2 for the week)

 

[Funkworks]

There's some interesting "how to build battery enclosures to manage thermal runaway and cell damage events" stuff here: https://shift-cleanenergy.com/technology/

The standard test for cell damage is the nail test--basically drive a nail straight into the cell and see what happens. These cells are built for marine environments, where fire is particularly nasty. Unlike shoreside, you can't just step away and let it burn.

Lots of battery tech webinars here too:
https://chargedevs.com/sessions/

cool
but we will see losses due to improper charging of batteries go up. I hope it doesn't affect anyone any of us know. (I just got back from chimney fire 2 for the week)

Just like when aviation started, the total number of mishaps can only go up at first, but it can be reduced later on, in total or per flight, per hour, per unit, etc. (I wasn't there to see aviation take off but watching BEVs take off now is good enough for me!)



Caterpillar's first BEV mining truck:



Largest grid storage battery in the UK turned on.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-63707463

 

[Funkworks]

Not for the faint of heart:

https://www.escendblades.com/


Rivian towing:

 

[dr wogz]

(Haven't read / kept up with this thread, so apologies if already discussed)

I was thinking the other day, with all the uber-large container / transport ships, why not make these 'nuclear powered', like subs & aircraft carriers. Could cut down on shipping costs & fuel usage.

Oh yeah, easily obtained "nuclear" stuff for committed terrorists..

pity

 

[boatgeek]

(Haven't read / kept up with this thread, so apologies if already discussed)

I was thinking the other day, with all the uber-large container / transport ships, why not make these 'nuclear powered', like subs & aircraft carriers. Could cut down on shipping costs & fuel usage.

Oh yeah, easily obtained "nuclear" stuff for committed terrorists..

pity

They tried that back in the 50’s during the heyday of thinking that nuclear power was the future. Google up the NS Savannah. It was never commercially viable, mainly because of the crew requirements. Those big container ships are running with a crew of around 25, of whom about 10-15 are engineering/maintenance. That’s not very many to monitor and take care of a nuclear reactor. There’s also issues with how much space the reactor takes up in the space that could otherwise be used for cargo.

 

[Funkworks]

(Haven't read / kept up with this thread, so apologies if already discussed)

I was thinking the other day, with all the uber-large container / transport ships, why not make these 'nuclear powered', like subs & aircraft carriers. Could cut down on shipping costs & fuel usage.

Oh yeah, easily obtained "nuclear" stuff for committed terrorists..

pity

Much of this thread is just daily EV and battery news from the past year so no worries. It's not easy to keep up with. I for one am just amazed by it all.

I think there are still many technical possibilities with nuclei but as you suggest, the whole geopolitical security landscape make them a drag.

I haven't dug into ships very much myself, but these are perhaps my favorite article and company so far:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/first-battery-powered-tanker-coming-to-tokyo
https://www.fleetzero.com/

 

[Greg Furtman]

Australia is building the largest energy storage battery ever, 850-megawatt/1,680-megawatt-hour! The Australian company that is building it is using a energy management system developed by a US company called Powin. Nowhere did I find out what kind of battery chemistry they use so I had to do some digging. Looks like they are using CATL LiFePO4 batteries.

Watch the video of the tear down of the coal-fired power plant this is replacing. Some very cool detonations to bring the different structures down.

https://www.canarymedia.com/article...-coal-plant-with-record-busting-850mw-battery

 

[Funkworks]

Australia is building the largest energy storage battery ever, 850-megawatt/1,680-megawatt-hour! The Australian company that is building it is using a energy management system developed by a US company called Powin. Nowhere did I find out what kind of battery chemistry they use so I had to do some digging. Looks like they are using CATL LiFePO4 batteries.

Watch the video of the tear down of the coal-fired power plant this is replacing. Some very cool detonations to bring the different structures down.

https://www.canarymedia.com/article...-coal-plant-with-record-busting-850mw-battery

Yes, LiFePO4 (LFP) appears to be the ideal chemistry for stationary storage, and also for practical transportation (used in the lowest cost Asian Model 3 and probably many of the smaller Chinese EVs). Other chemistries can allow better performance in cars, but they're also more expensive. I only watch videos on evenings and weekends so I'll get to it later.

 

[Greg Furtman]

@Funkworks Here's another one for you. NASA's solid state battery.

 

[Funkworks]

Batteries about to convert me into a truck guy (or SUV).

 

[Greg Furtman]

I ran across this. I like it!

 

[Greg Furtman]

A US Company is going to open a battery factory in AZ. No Asian partners with materials from the US.

https://www.canarymedia.com/article...to-build-lithium-ion-battery-cells-in-arizona

 

[Greg Furtman]

United Airlines is going to electrify their airport fleets using sodium ion batteries.

https://www.canarymedia.com/article...-airport-operations-with-sodium-ion-batteries

 

[Funkworks]

I ran across this. I like it!

I'll look into it to see what "sound generator" really is about but the idea of generating sounds just for the heck of it sounds ridiculous to me. If it's for nostalgia, I'm out. Otherwise, then why not also for toasters, chimneys and ball caps. SMH. Just carry a smartphone and speaker. Anyway, I'll look at the video later.

A US Company is going to open a battery factory in AZ. No Asian partners with materials from the US.

https://www.canarymedia.com/article...to-build-lithium-ion-battery-cells-in-arizona

Cool. I love Asia as much as anyone, but there needs to be a little more balance here. Far from enough American production yet.

United Airlines is going to electrify their airport fleets using sodium ion batteries.

https://www.canarymedia.com/article...-airport-operations-with-sodium-ion-batteries

"... the latest funding from United will allow Natron to accelerate production at the facility in Michigan, which is slated to start commercial deliveries in July 2023. Still, he added, it may take several years before the sodium-ion batteries wind up in airports, owing to permitting and regulatory requirements."

Hopefully it works out.

 

[jderimig]

Australia is building the largest energy storage battery ever, 850-megawatt/1,680-megawatt-hour! The Australian company that is building it is using a energy management system developed by a US company called Powin. Nowhere did I find out what kind of battery chemistry they use so I had to do some digging. Looks like they are using CATL LiFePO4 batteries.

Watch the video of the tear down of the coal-fired power plant this is replacing. Some very cool detonations to bring the different structures down.

https://www.canarymedia.com/article...-coal-plant-with-record-busting-850mw-battery

Some interesting facts I found. Australia uses 229 billion kwh per day. This battery is 1.68 billion kwh. So this battery will be able to supply 10minutes of Australia's daily energy usage if fully discharged for 25 million people.

 

[CalebJ]

Some interesting facts I found. Australia uses 229 billion kwh per day. This battery is 1.68 billion kwh. So this battery will be able to supply 10minutes of Australia's daily energy usage if fully discharged.

So... what is your interpretation based on those facts you found? That they shouldn't proceed with the project because this first step doesn't do enough?

 

[Greg Furtman]

I'll look into it to see what "sound generator" really is about but the idea of generating sounds just for the heck of it sounds ridiculous to me. If it's for nostalgia, I'm out. Otherwise, then why not also for toasters, chimneys and ball caps. SMH. Just carry a smartphone and speaker. Anyway, I'll look at the video later.

Yes, I think the vroom-vroom sound is over the top. Hopefully it could be turned off. But it looks like the handling would be great!

 

[boatgeek]

Some interesting facts I found. Australia uses 229 billion kwh per day. This battery is 1.68 billion kwh. So this battery will be able to supply 10minutes of Australia's daily energy usage if fully discharged for 25 million people.

I'm honestly pleasantly surprised that the battery is big enough that they would only need ~200 of them to power the nation.

 

[jderimig]

I'm honestly pleasantly surprised that the battery is big enough that they would only need ~200 of them to power the nation.

Yes and at $1billion each it would onyt cost $200Billion in capex to power Australia for a single day. I wonder what would nat gas turbines would cost to provide the same intermittent backup power?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...uper-battery&usg=AOvVaw24I7x08gjjE_JqZmU7HKxx

 

[jderimig]

So... what is your interpretation based on those facts you found? That they shouldn't proceed with the project because this first step doesn't do enough?

Just doing math. Sometimes a banana is just a banana.