Large electric motors, batteries and vehicles

[boatgeek]

Not necessarily. Generalisations are just too general. Some cell constructions and chemistries effectively integrate the amount of charge/discharge over the life of the battery and can result in a very short service life for a battery. Gel cell lead acid batteries is one that comes to mind. They have a cycle life of about 500, up to 1000 if you are lucky, but if you use a crude charger that results in charge-discharge ripple it very quickly kills the battery. I am sure there are others as well, but I hope you get my point.

The generalisation also doesn't make sense from a logic point of view. If you discharge to 90% then recharge does it count as a cycle? 80% etc. What defines a "cycle".

In practical terms, we've had our 2013 Leaf since 2015, or about 6.5 years. It's been plugged in at home every night (well, except for a couple that we forgot), and gets used 3-4 days a week at minimum. So it's had around 1,200 charge cycles with no noticeable loss of charge. Only a couple of those charge cycles were deep discharges. My understanding is that deep discharges and fast charging are harder on batteries than light uses with slow recharges.

 

[neil_w]

Not necessarily. Generalisations are just too general. Some cell constructions and chemistries effectively integrate the amount of charge/discharge over the life of the battery and can result in a very short service life for a battery. Gel cell lead acid batteries is one that comes to mind. They have a cycle life of about 500, up to 1000 if you are lucky, but if you use a crude charger that results in charge-discharge ripple it very quickly kills the battery. I am sure there are others as well, but I hope you get my point.

The generalisation also doesn't make sense from a logic point of view. If you discharge to 90% then recharge does it count as a cycle? 80% etc. What defines a "cycle"

We're only talking about EV batteries here, which are (with no exceptions that I know of) Lithium-Ion. Generally, a cycle is defined as charging from 0-100% and then discharging back to 0. So if you discharge from 100% - 90% and then charge back to 100%, you have consumed 1/10 of a charge cycle.

Obviously this is all not perfectly linear, but that is the general calculation.

I top off my 4 year-old car every night. I have certainly not consumed 1200 battery cycles, more like 400 by my rough estimates given my daily consumption.

 

[Cape Byron]

 

[Funkworks]

... it's had around 1,200 charge cycles with no noticeable loss of charge ...

That's amazing. Just about everything has improved since 2013, so if your battery is that good, every other battery out there should be better (assuming they've been taken care of). The couple of 2014 Leafs I tried had a lost 1-2 bars of battery life (out of 12? 14?). My current 3 year old Hyundai has yet to lose any range (knock on wood).

One thing about state of charge is that with some cars, like a Tesla, you can select a maximum above which not to charge (charging stops at say 85%). With others, like my Hyundai, I cannot set a maximum, but I assume there's a margin between the indicated 100% and the real 100%.

I wish all makers would think of the used market and include some kind of battery health indicator. It's hard to know how well a used battery has been treated. Leafs have health bars, but I don't about others. Mine doesn't, I don't know about others. Indicated EV range should be a required spec and filter criteria on Autotrader.

 

[boatgeek]

That's amazing. Just about everything has improved since 2013, so if your battery is that good, every other battery out there should be better (assuming they've been taken care of). The couple of 2014 Leafs I tried had a lost 1-2 bars of battery life (out of 12? 14?). My current 3 year old Hyundai has yet to lose any range (knock on wood).

One thing about state of charge is that with some cars, like a Tesla, you can select a maximum above which not to charge (charging stops at say 85%). With others, like my Hyundai, I cannot set a maximum, but I assume there's a margin between the indicated 100% and the real 100%.

I wish all makers would think of the used market and include some kind of battery health indicator. It's hard to know how well a used battery has been treated. Leafs have health bars, but I don't about others. Mine doesn't, I don't know about others. Indicated EV range should be a required spec and filter criteria on Autotrader.

I should be clear, most of the "charge cycles" I mentioned were for 5-20 miles (<10%-25% capacity), so they're definitely not on the scale of the 0-100-0 standard that @neil_w referenced. For a while, we charged to 80%, but there were a few times in winter when our range wasn't what we wanted so we started charging to 100% again. I think the main reason some car companies don't offer the 80% charge feature is that the range estimate gets dinged by that.

BTW, the Leaf has 10 battery bars. That would be a super-useful indicator on other cars. It's disappointing that it's not shown. I think that part of the reason the Leaf has it is to ID warranty issues. The battery is warranted for 8+ bars after a full charge. If it's at 7 or below, then Nissan has to replace the battery (if it's under warranty).

 

[AeroTech]

Those don't need right-of-way or permits.
We have a major commute corridor here that can't get a permit for the wiring for lights....been a year.
Digging up the sidewalks on all the streets to install the infrastructure will take years to clear the red tape....years....
Plus, who's providing the funding?

If there is a demand it will happen. Look at how broadband internet has proliferated. A lot of digging there…

 

[Funkworks]

Harley-Davidson's electric bike brand has its own website. Latest model "S2 Del MarLaunch Edition" sold out, but one can reserve.

LiveWire.com

www.livewire.com

Stellantis to build a battery plant:

Stellantis and Samsung SDI to Invest Over $2.5 Billion in Joint Venture for Lithium-Ion Battery Production Plant in United States | Stellantis

Joint venture to build electric-vehicle battery plant in Kokomo, Indiana, U.S. to support Stellantis’ North America electrification ambitions outli

www.stellantis.com

 

[Funkworks]

This I think is a first: an EV charger (240V) with a 120V outlet for electric bikes. Along the Oregon coast.

ODOT has added e-bike charging outlets to Oregon's portion of 'West Coast Electric Highway' - BikePortland

(Images of Tuesday’s press event in Woodburn provided by ODOT. Click for full image and captions.) “Community feedback has influenced our thinking and direction around e-bikes.”— Matt Noble, ODOT At a press event Tuesday, Oregon Governor Kate Brown spoke about her commitment to climate change...

bikeportland.org

"SPARKZ announced in March it will begin construction in 2022 of a Gigafactory in West Virginia to commercialize their zero-cobalt battery which will initially employ 350 workers and could grow to as many as 3,000."

...

"SPARKZ and the United Mine Workers of America will partner to recruit and train dislocated miners to be the first group of production workers to be hired into the facility. SPARKZ will be focused on creating a strong and diverse workforce capable of competing against foreign batteries made in China and securing the supply chain."

“This agreement is a win-win for the laid-off coal miners who will work in this facility, their families and their communities,” UMWA International President Cecil E. Roberts said. “We have lost thousands of mining jobs over the last decade in West Virginia. This is a first step to putting some of those people back to work in good, well-paying, family-sustaining jobs. We look forward to working with SPARKZ to build on this initiative as traditional energy workers meet the challenges of the ongoing energy transition.”

Next-Gen Battery Maker Sparkz, United Mine Workers of America Announce Labor-Management Agreement

SPARKZ and the United Mine Workers of America will partner to recruit and train dislocated miners to be the first group of production workers to be hired into the facility. SPARKZ will be focused on creating a strong and diverse workforce capable of competing against foreign batteries made in...

umwa.org

Zero Cobalt Solid State Battery Research & Development | Sparkz Inc.

Sparkz Inc is reengineering the battery supply chain with their innovative zero cobalt, solid state batteries.

sparkz.energy

300 battery gigafactories are being built or planned worldwide.
(yes, I think "holy ______" is an appropriate reaction to this number)

"The number of gigafactories in the pipeline has surpassed 300 as the global rush to develop lithium ion battery production capacity continues."

Global gigafactory pipeline hits 300; China dominates but the West gathers pace | Benchmark

The number of gigafactories in the pipeline has surpassed 300 as the global rush to develop lithium ion battery production capacity continues. There is now 6,387.6 gigawatt hours (GWh) of lithium ion battery capacity in the pipeline as assessed in Benchmark’s May 2022 Gigafactory Assessment, a...

www.benchmarkminerals.com

 

[Funkworks]

DeLorean will officially be unveiling its new car today at 9 pm pacific time in a livestream:

DeLorean

DeLorean is a legacy mobility company focused on redefining human connections through creative technologies.

delorean.com

 

[MClark]

DeLorean will officially be unveiling its new car today at 9 pm pacific time in a livestream:

DeLorean

DeLorean is a legacy mobility company focused on redefining human connections through creative technologies.

delorean.com

View attachment 520885

Will it come with a Mr. Fusion?

 

[Funkworks]

Will it come with a Mr. Fusion?

I had to look up what that was as I haven't seen those movies in a long time. Referring to the car in Back to the Future 2:

"For one thing, the car had a new addition to its rear deck, right above the engine, a white canister labeled 'Mr. Fusion'."

"Mr. Fusion converted household waste to power the time machine's flux capacitor and time circuits using nuclear fusion (it is thought that this is cold fusion), as well as allowing the DeLorean time machine to generate the required 1.21 gigawatts to travel through the space-time continuum. The energy produced by Mr. Fusion replaced plutonium as the primary power source of the DeLorean's time travel and flight capabilities."

I guess you'll have to wait for the unveilling event to know!



I'm not much of a boat person but here's a channel with many short videos from electric boat maker Candela.

https://www.youtube.com/c/CandelaSpeedBoat/videos

 

[MidOH]

With a dozen states talking about rolling black outs. Could ya'll, especially in the Michigan area, NOT plug your flashlight cars in right now?

At least wait until I'm off call, and a few states away

 

[CalebJ]

With a dozen states talking about rolling black outs. Could ya'll, especially in the Michigan area, NOT plug your flashlight cars in right now?

At least wait until I'm off call, and a few states away

Hmm...
So you'd rather them not drive than focus on fixing the problem? And that's ignoring how tiny a percentage of total energy use is currently allotted for EVs.

 

[MidOH]

Whoa there.

A charge cycle means charging the equivalent of 0-100% of capacity, not topping it off every day. So unless you're spending your entire life in your car, you're not doing 6 cycles per week (that would imply somewhere between 300,000 - 900,000 miles on the car in 10 years, depending on battery capacity). At the point your car has other problems.

EV batteries last longer than everyone seems to think, and they're only getting better in that regard.

Sounds like someone is in for a rude awakening.

 

[boatgeek]

With a dozen states talking about rolling black outs. Could ya'll, especially in the Michigan area, NOT plug your flashlight cars in right now?

At least wait until I'm off call, and a few states away

Or set the charger to recharge in the middle of the night when electrical demand is relatively low.

 

[boatgeek]

Sounds like someone is in for a rude awakening.

Do you have data to back that up, or are you just assuming disaster again?

 

[CalebJ]

Sounds like someone is in for a rude awakening.

Given the number of times you've made dubious claims and received contradicting evidence with sources cited, it's hard to imagine who you're referring to...

 

[MidOH]

The average commute, round trip, is certainly going to count as a ''cycle'' on a battery. Lot's of happy hippy wishful thinking, in this thread.

Batteries are a major money maker in machinery and solar. The laptop/flashlight batteries in a Tesla, are hardly better.

 

[MidOH]

Hmm...
So you'd rather them not drive than focus on fixing the problem? And that's ignoring how tiny a percentage of total energy use is currently allotted for EVs.

You be sure to hand us your ''allotment'' card, when your power goes out.

 

[CalebJ]

It's almost as if you imagine facts and try to will them into existence in this thread.

Thankfully, the rest of us exist in places where research, development, and testing take place.

 

[dhbarr]

You mention "laptop/flashlight" batteries as if billions of people aren't constantly walking around with tiny miracles strapped to their leg.

 

[neil_w]

Sounds like someone is in for a rude awakening.

Thanks for joining this thread and offering your incisive and completely on-topic analysis.

 

[boatgeek]

The average commute, round trip, is certainly going to count as a ''cycle'' on a battery. Lot's of happy hippy wishful thinking, in this thread.

Batteries are a major money maker in machinery and solar. The laptop/flashlight batteries in a Tesla, are hardly better.

Pro tips:
1. Batteries are warrantied based on miles driven, not charge cycles. I'm not sure why you care what counts as a cycle or not when teh manufacturer certainly doesn't.
2. Not every electric vehicle is a Tesla. And Tesla battery packs come with active liquid cooling and heating that the average laptop/flashlight battery doesn't.
3. Actual real-world experience has shown that batteries last longer than they were originally expected to, in miles driven.
4. You're not convincing anyone of anything except that you're a person who can't take "this isn't the thread for that" for an answer.

 

[KC3KNM]

The average commute, round trip, is certainly going to count as a ''cycle'' on a battery. Lot's of happy hippy wishful thinking, in this thread.

Batteries are a major money maker in machinery and solar. The laptop/flashlight batteries in a Tesla, are hardly better.

The fact that you’ve apparently worked on everything/everywhere but consistently have no clue what you’re talking about (and have an enormous ego to boot) really spices up these threads when they get boring. Thank you for brightening up what was a pretty bland day for me.

 

[MidOH]

The fact that you’ve apparently worked on everything/everywhere but consistently have no clue what you’re talking about (and have an enormous ego to boot) really spices up these threads when they get boring. Thank you for brightening up what was a pretty bland day for me.

Are you suggesting that a 33% discharge doesn't count as a cycle?

Are you suggesting that I don't make a killing on your batteries and your short sightedness?

Are you suggesting that nobody is currently suffering through EV battery replacements?

 

[boatgeek]

Are you suggesting that a 33% discharge doesn't count as a cycle?

Are you suggesting that I don't make a killing on your batteries and your short sightedness?

Are you suggesting that nobody is currently suffering through EV battery replacements?

Oh, now you're an EV battery installer too? Remarkable! I had no idea you were such a Renaissance man.

I'm pretty sure that everyone has been saying that a 33% discharge would count as 1/3 of a cycle. And that EV batteries are getting more mileage/cycles than originally expected.

And a very nice straw man, too. Nobody has ever said that no EV users are having to replace batteries.

 

[KC3KNM]

Are you suggesting that a 33% discharge doesn't count as a cycle?

Are you suggesting that I don't make a killing on your batteries and your short sightedness?

Are you suggesting that nobody is currently suffering through EV battery replacements?

You’re fixated on cycles for some odd reason. Read the rest of the thread.

Not sure who you are or why you’re touching my batteries. If you’re making such a killing, wouldn’t it be against your best interests to alert the plebs of their poor practices? To me, it sounds like you’re the dude who drives the truck to drop them off… but from how you talk you may also be a nuclear physicist, so I’m really not sure.

I’m sure they are, just as people are dealing with transmission issues, blown head gaskets and a million other issues ICE cars suffer from.

 

[MidOH]

I was responding to the comment, that batteries last a long long time, and short hops and light charges aren't cycles. As a warning.

In your case, I hope you buy a ton of them.

 

[KC3KNM]

I was responding to the comment, that batteries last a long long time, and short hops and light charges aren't cycles. As a warning.

In your case, I hope you buy a ton of them.

Awesome, I didn’t make that comment. I will add that my 7 year old battery in my Golf is doing quite well, though.

I mean, I’ll probably hit you up if I need some potato salad. Weren’t you going off about that in another thread?

 

[MidOH]

They're back online. Another food factory fire last week. Thankfully, I'm not involved.

My best interest is equipment that works. When it's junk, life gets harder. The last thing I need is more job security. Hopefully I'll also be slinging quality home solar soon, with stand-by power capability. Current solar, is weak. Huge market for a one stop shop, of quality gear that lasts.