Large electric motors, batteries and vehicles

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Funkworks

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Hey, I just thought of something. If Spinlaunch can do that with a rocket then they could do that with an artillery shell, right? Electric cannons? Maybe DoD is working on that. Would need to improve turnaround time though.
Rail guns seemed promising for a while but I think the latest big project has dwindled. They never got to the point of adding explosives afaik. I think kinetics was enough for most purposes.

Spinlaunch's system seems totally new, so I don't think anyone really knows exactly how it can best be used yet (they just launched a camera for the first time). Sounding, orbital and military applications with all sorts of payloads are all things that could be tested. It comes down to economics: comparing specs and costs vs alternatives for a given purpose. That's what I like about the project, it's a totally new system, and there's a lot to discover. But it's really nothing but a ginormous electrical sling.

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"Hyundai Motor Group to Establish First Dedicated EV Plant and Battery Manufacturing Facility in the U.S."


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A nice graphic showing how lithium batteries can be recycled.

recycling-06-00031.jpg

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A company planning to build many Li recycling plants: https://www.bluewhalematerials.com/solution

 
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Funkworks

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The prettiest trailer ever! With no driver, the tractor part is so slim the entire thing can be seen as the most advanced trailer ever.



 

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ThirstyBarbarian

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Couple of things about that. There has been so much of the "close spaces" being eaten up. It began with Disabled Parking, and that makes perfect sense. Then expectant mothers..OK. Then veterans. And parking to go inside to the Pharmacy.

And more recently, accelerated by Covid, whole swaths of close parking eaten up for "Drive-Up" orders, taking up extra wide space per car to allow carts beside the vehicles. While the drivers don't need to park close (since they stay in their cars), most certainly the employees wheeling out those orders need as short of a distance as possible. And they are usually under a corporate arbitrary deadline (like 2 minutes or 3 minutes, regardless of weather) to complete the delivery from the moment the customer clicked on their phone app that they were there. Also, less distance they travel, the safer due to moving cars.

So, I'm not so much in favor of YET ANOTHER special class of "parking" to eat further into the parking that is near the store, the very mid-lot places I'm stuck parking at now due to all the other dedicated parking spots above. EV's won't be the mainstream for perhaps 2 decades, and giving them preferential treatment in addition to all the others above would bring a lot of resentment from everyone else in the here and now.

Like say if there was special closer parking for LImousine and Sports Cars, vehicles of the rich. How would that play out among the general public? For now, most EV's are vehicles for "the more affluent", out of the price range of most people for the time being. As it is, some Wal-Marts have gas stations, and guess what, those stations are not in the middle of the parking lot. They are usually in a corner of the lot or even outside but adjacent to the Wal-Mart store's parking lot. And of course, EV owners could still park as close as they can get, if they want a shorter walk, just not get their car charged up.

But I was not even thinking about that aspect. I was thinking of the practical logistics of adding all the charging stations to an existing lot, and the extra space needed per car compared to a normal parking lot. It would seem to be easiest to place those along a border area of the parking lot. And I would expect that if say Target and Wal-Mart did it, they'd have the sense to offer some sort of discount on the charging fee, or gift card, or something.

And I referred to that as a beginning point. Certainly as more and more EV's replace IC vehicles, there will be more demand, and forward-planning companies ought to keep in mind how to upgrade from "X" number of charging stations at first in a large lot, to several times "X" number in the future. At least if there is a demand for it at those stores, if there is not the mass increase in charging stations elsewhere that there needs to be in the next couple of decades.

I see that Love's Truck Stops are doing EV chargers. Well, they are doing a better PR job at it, than actually doing a good job at EV chargers. I see by this article, one of the top hits, they planned 28 chargers by 2021, in 7 of their 520 locations, 4 chargers each at only at those 7 locations. Seven is a drop in the bucket (1.3 percent). "Test program" would be a more accurate story there. Hopefully Covid didn't screw up those plans, and they and other truck stops (which do have crap-loads of parking available) will add charging stations to most or all their locations quickly, with ability to add many more charging stations as more and more EV's are on the highways, and less IC vehicles are. THOSE are the places that need to adapt the quickest, as far as their general customer base outside of truck drivers using Diesel, as fewer and fewer non-Diesel IC vehicles are on the road over time.


At least Love's is trying something though. I hope the rest of the big truck stop chains are trying too, but I did not find much else.
But what about the pregnant disabled veterans who need to charge up while visiting the pharmacy?
 

boomtube-mk2

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Spinlaunch's system seems totally new, so I don't think anyone really knows exactly how it can best be used yet (they just launched a camera for the first time). Sounding, orbital and military applications with all sorts of payloads are all things that could be tested. It comes down to economics: comparing specs and costs vs alternatives for a given purpose. That's what I like about the project, it's a totally new system, and there's a lot to discover. But it's really nothing but a ginormous electrical sling.
The latest prototype space launch system.

All that's required is for it to be scaled-up.
 
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Funkworks

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Couple of things about that. There has been so much of the "close spaces" being eaten up. It began with Disabled Parking, and that makes perfect sense. Then expectant mothers..OK. Then veterans. And parking to go inside to the Pharmacy.

And more recently, accelerated by Covid, whole swaths of close parking eaten up for "Drive-Up" orders, taking up extra wide space per car to allow carts beside the vehicles. While the drivers don't need to park close (since they stay in their cars), most certainly the employees wheeling out those orders need as short of a distance as possible. And they are usually under a corporate arbitrary deadline (like 2 minutes or 3 minutes, regardless of weather) to complete the delivery from the moment the customer clicked on their phone app that they were there. Also, less distance they travel, the safer due to moving cars.

So, I'm not so much in favor of YET ANOTHER special class of "parking" to eat further into the parking that is near the store, the very mid-lot places I'm stuck parking at now due to all the other dedicated parking spots above. EV's won't be the mainstream for perhaps 2 decades, and giving them preferential treatment in addition to all the others above would bring a lot of resentment from everyone else in the here and now.

Like say if there was special closer parking for LImousine and Sports Cars, vehicles of the rich. How would that play out among the general public? For now, most EV's are vehicles for "the more affluent", out of the price range of most people for the time being. As it is, some Wal-Marts have gas stations, and guess what, those stations are not in the middle of the parking lot. They are usually in a corner of the lot or even outside but adjacent to the Wal-Mart store's parking lot. And of course, EV owners could still park as close as they can get, if they want a shorter walk, just not get their car charged up.

But I was not even thinking about that aspect. I was thinking of the practical logistics of adding all the charging stations to an existing lot, and the extra space needed per car compared to a normal parking lot. It would seem to be easiest to place those along a border area of the parking lot. And I would expect that if say Target and Wal-Mart did it, they'd have the sense to offer some sort of discount on the charging fee, or gift card, or something.

And I referred to that as a beginning point. Certainly as more and more EV's replace IC vehicles, there will be more demand, and forward-planning companies ought to keep in mind how to upgrade from "X" number of charging stations at first in a large lot, to several times "X" number in the future. At least if there is a demand for it at those stores, if there is not the mass increase in charging stations elsewhere that there needs to be in the next couple of decades.

I see that Love's Truck Stops are doing EV chargers. Well, they are doing a better PR job at it, than actually doing a good job at EV chargers. I see by this article, one of the top hits, they planned 28 chargers by 2021, in 7 of their 520 locations, 4 chargers each at only at those 7 locations. Seven is a drop in the bucket (1.3 percent). "Test program" would be a more accurate story there. Hopefully Covid didn't screw up those plans, and they and other truck stops (which do have crap-loads of parking available) will add charging stations to most or all their locations quickly, with ability to add many more charging stations as more and more EV's are on the highways, and less IC vehicles are. THOSE are the places that need to adapt the quickest, as far as their general customer base outside of truck drivers using Diesel, as fewer and fewer non-Diesel IC vehicles are on the road over time.


At least Love's is trying something though. I hope the rest of the big truck stop chains are trying too, but I did not find much else.
Yes I generally agree. Not too close because EV owners don't need preferential treatment or to be in the spotlight, not too far because they shouldn't have to walk more than anyone else, and not in the middle, because of the trouble of running wires. So along the side somewhere seems good, and planners can actually calculate exactly how far they need to be for the average walking distance to be the same as for other car owners. On average, that's where I see them: sometimes close, sometimes far, sometimes in the middle.

At some places, EVs are mainstream. In Norway for example, 91% of cars sold last March were EVs. In the US, it depends on the state. From a somewhat random article:

"Increasing numbers of exciting new electric vehicle models and historically high gasoline prices are driving a surge in EV sales in the U.S. Sales are expected to total about 670,000 in 2022, according to a forecast by market consultant AutoPacific.

That would be a 37% increase from 2021’s 488,000 EV sales and marks the second year of what will be a long string of large annual hikes in electric car and truck sales, the California-based consultancy said.

AutoPacific is predicting that EV sales nationally will top the one million mark sometime in 2024 and hit two million—more than 10 percent of a healthy year’s total new vehicle sales—by 2026. That compares to less than 3% of sales in 2021."


With 488,000 new EV sales in 2021, I'd say they're part of the mainstream in that they sell more than some other familiar models. As for being for "the more affluent", I'd say the more affluent buy new cars, while people like me buy used cars. I got a used Hyundai PHEV instead of a new Civic. I don't think it makes me affluent. I just hopped on an early wave of used EVs. Many more are on the way. Still much less than the average selling price (~40k) of all new cars. Total cost of ownership is what matters and once you make that calculation (which I did with my previous car), the difference isn't so bad as it seems by looking only at the sticker price.

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Doug Demuro on whether he'd buy an EV. Notably (speaking of "mainstream"), at some point he says probably not a Tesla because he sees them all the time where he lives. He's known for being into quirkier, or less common things.

 
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boomtube-mk2

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With 488,000 new EV sales in 2021, I'd say they're part of the mainstream in that they sell more than some other familiar models. As for being for "the more affluent", I'd say the more affluent buy new cars, while people like me buy used cars.
And that's the $64,000,000,000 question. How long will it take until there are sufficient numbers of used EV's to fill the market needs?
The way things are happening now, gasoline and diesel prices are going to make it prohibitively expensive for many people to keep operating their ICE vehicles long before there are enough used ICE vehicles available for them to purchase, and that's assuming they can even afford a used EV, they are going to be substantially more expensive than what they likely paid for their current ICE vehicle.

And then there's the charging situation both with regards to the availability of convenient charging stations and the availability of enough electricity to charge them all.

People in the industry are already predicting nation-wide rotating blackouts this summer during "Peak usage hours" because the U.S. doesn't have the generating capacity required, for every 1,000 megawatt's generating capacity that's been "retired" we've only replaced it with 600 megawatts capacity, and we've been doing this for the past 20+years.
Now if millions of commuters get home and plug their EVs into charging stations, not to mention the potential for a couple of million commercial trucks doing the same, then "peak usage hours" becomes 24 hours a day.
 

KC3KNM

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And that's the $64,000,000,000 question. How long will it take until there are sufficient numbers of used EV's to fill the market needs?
The way things are happening now, gasoline and diesel prices are going to make it prohibitively expensive for many people to keep operating their ICE vehicles long before there are enough used ICE vehicles available for them to purchase, and that's assuming they can even afford a used EV, they are going to be substantially more expensive than what they likely paid for their current ICE vehicle.

And then there's the charging situation both with regards to the availability of convenient charging stations and the availability of enough electricity to charge them all.

People in the industry are already predicting nation-wide rotating blackouts this summer during "Peak usage hours" because the U.S. doesn't have the generating capacity required, for every 1,000 megawatt's generating capacity that's been "retired" we've only replaced it with 600 megawatts capacity, and we've been doing this for the past 20+years.
Now if millions of commuters get home and plug their EVs into charging stations, not to mention the potential for a couple of million commercial trucks doing the same, then "peak usage hours" becomes 24 hours a day.
Not sure what the broader market looks like, but I just sold my 2010 Honda Fit to Carvana for $5600 ($1400 less than I paid for it 60k miles and 4 years ago) and picked up a 2015 E Golf for $15k with 40k miles on it. I was on the fence for a bit, but there’s plenty of options out there with used EVs and it made sense to trade in my older ICE vehicle for a slightly newer EV at this point.

YMMV but I drive about 20 miles a day, and charge for free at work. Besides the fuel savings, the maintenance savings in time and energy will be well worth it. We also have a Mini for longer trips, but use the E Golf for about 95% of our driving now.

I’ve seen issues with the grid popping up in Texas, but I’m not sure they’re indicative of the country as a whole. Perhaps it’ll be a challenge nationally at some point, but I don't think it’s the end of the world. (https://www.virta.global/blog/myth-buster-electric-vehicles-will-overload-the-power-grid)
 
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Funkworks

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And that's the $64,000,000,000 question. How long will it take until there are sufficient numbers of used EV's to fill the market needs?
The way things are happening now, gasoline and diesel prices are going to make it prohibitively expensive for many people to keep operating their ICE vehicles long before there are enough used ICE vehicles available for them to purchase, and that's assuming they can even afford a used EV, they are going to be substantially more expensive than what they likely paid for their current ICE vehicle.

And then there's the charging situation both with regards to the availability of convenient charging stations and the availability of enough electricity to charge them all.

People in the industry are already predicting nation-wide rotating blackouts this summer during "Peak usage hours" because the U.S. doesn't have the generating capacity required, for every 1,000 megawatt's generating capacity that's been "retired" we've only replaced it with 600 megawatts capacity, and we've been doing this for the past 20+years.
Now if millions of commuters get home and plug their EVs into charging stations, not to mention the potential for a couple of million commercial trucks doing the same, then "peak usage hours" becomes 24 hours a day.
The number of used EVs is directly related to the number of new EVs sold.
The number of new EVs sold is directly related to the availability of battery grade lithium.
The availability of battery grade lithium is directly related to the number of lithium refining plants.
The number of lithium refining plants is directly related to how much investment they get.
How much investment do they get?
That I think is a question for professional analysts and economists.

If people predict black-outs, then others will see business opportunities in preventing them. Peak usage hours can be flattened by charging at night (all EVs have a scheduling function allowing to start charging any time), and when the time is right, EVs will be equipped with battery-to-grid. That really isn't a consumer concern. Grid operators and EV makers are on it. Still too soon.
 

boatgeek

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And that's the $64,000,000,000 question. How long will it take until there are sufficient numbers of used EV's to fill the market needs?
The way things are happening now, gasoline and diesel prices are going to make it prohibitively expensive for many people to keep operating their ICE vehicles long before there are enough used ICE vehicles available for them to purchase, and that's assuming they can even afford a used EV, they are going to be substantially more expensive than what they likely paid for their current ICE vehicle.

And then there's the charging situation both with regards to the availability of convenient charging stations and the availability of enough electricity to charge them all.

People in the industry are already predicting nation-wide rotating blackouts this summer during "Peak usage hours" because the U.S. doesn't have the generating capacity required, for every 1,000 megawatt's generating capacity that's been "retired" we've only replaced it with 600 megawatts capacity, and we've been doing this for the past 20+years.
Now if millions of commuters get home and plug their EVs into charging stations, not to mention the potential for a couple of million commercial trucks doing the same, then "peak usage hours" becomes 24 hours a day.
The big problem is peak usage. If usage stays relatively constant through the night, then the peaker plants just stay on longer. Also, I have some trouble feeling sorry for Texas, since they deliberately airgapped their grid from the rest of the US so they wouldn't have to deal with pesky federal regulations about ... things like reliability. Plus, they've already shown a lack of ability to manage their plants and grid.

Anyway, used EVs will come on the market, priced to what the market will bear. For example, the price of a 2012-15 Leaf has settled in around $7K, which is pretty typical for a hatchback of that vintage. They do have a relatively limited range, but they're also fantastic commuter cars for 80%+ of the population.
 

georgegassaway

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Anyway, used EVs will come on the market, priced to what the market will bear. For example, the price of a 2012-15 Leaf has settled in around $7K, which is pretty typical for a hatchback of that vintage. They do have a relatively limited range, but they're also fantastic commuter cars for 80%+ of the population.
Plus thousands to replace the battery. As I take it a 7-10 year old battery that's been charged say 6 times a week, would have about 30,000 charge cycles on it if it was 10 years old and on its last legs for range, if not already needing replacement. Prices vary, but one I found lists $5,500 grand total for a 24 kWh Leaf battery , parts, and labor. So, that's more like $12,500.

Tesla's battery replacement, battery alone $13k to 20k depending on car model and battery.

Note, I'm not down on electric. Heck, I modified my bike for Electric assist. If I won the lottery, I'd get one. I don't see getting one anytime in the foreseeable future, the prices need to become more affordable for the masses, as well as the charging infrastructure across the whole U.S. I certainly want to get one eventually, but not any time soon.
 
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ThirstyBarbarian

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Maybe charging stations can revive the drive-in restaurant concept. You drive in to get charged up, and a sassy server roller-skates up to your window on an electric hoverboard to serve you a burger and shake. (Or optional impossible meat burger and almond milk shake, if that’s your thing.)
 

Funkworks

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Maybe charging stations can revive the drive-in restaurant concept. You drive in to get charged up, and a sassy server roller-skates up to your window on an electric hoverboard to serve you a burger and shake. (Or optional impossible meat burger and almond milk shake, if that’s your thing.)

Also thought about that, but not surprisingly, some are waaaay ahead of us:


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.. If I won the lottery, I'd get one. I don't see getting one anytime in the foreseeable future, the prices need to become more affordable for the masses, as well as the charging infrastructure across the whole U.S. I certainly want to get one eventually, but not any time soon.

If you put on an accountant hat and calculate total cost of ownership over 10 years (not just sticker price), you might find that a decent EV is cheaper (depending on which models you're looking at). Now of course, all cars are expensive right now because of some macro economic issues, but aside from that, it might be worth looking at it. Anyway that's what I did. More financing might be balanced out by less running costs.

As for a charging network, it might depend on where you're located and your particular habits, but you can always look up where your local chargers are before even shopping for an EV. But when you charge at home each day, you find that public stations don't matter very much. You have to drive 3-5 hours to empty an EV battery. Few people do that on any day of the week. The ability to charge at home changes everything.

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Leno in a Lightning:

 
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boatgeek

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Plus thousands to replace the battery. As I take it a 7-10 year old battery that's been charged say 6 times a week, would have about 30,000 charge cycles on it if it was 10 years old and on its last legs for range, if not already needing replacement. Prices vary, but one I found lists $5,500 grand total for a 24 kWh Leaf battery , parts, and labor. So, that's more like $12,500.
Depends a lot on how well the battery has been cared for. My 2013 Leaf still has over 90% of original battery capacity at about 50K miles.
 

neil_w

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Plus thousands to replace the battery. As I take it a 7-10 year old battery that's been charged say 6 times a week, would have about 30,000 charge cycles on it if it was 10 years old and on its last legs for range, if not already needing replacement. Prices vary, but one I found lists $5,500 grand total for a 24 kWh Leaf battery , parts, and labor. So, that's more like $12,500.
Whoa there.

A charge cycle means charging the equivalent of 0-100% of capacity, not topping it off every day. So unless you're spending your entire life in your car, you're not doing 6 cycles per week (that would imply somewhere between 300,000 - 900,000 miles on the car in 10 years, depending on battery capacity). At the point your car has other problems.

EV batteries last longer than everyone seems to think, and they're only getting better in that regard.
 

FredA

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The ability to charge at home changes everything.

Great for home owners.
Here in Portland where housing is un-affordable for most, they don't want cars so even expensive apartments/condo's are now built with ~10:1 housing to parking ratio.....park in the street or drive a bike (sure, where it rains 9 months a year) is the mantra of the "planning" people.

So parking-meter style chargers at every spot need to appear ASAP and that's not going to happen.
 

Funkworks

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Great for home owners.
Here in Portland where housing is un-affordable for most, they don't want cars so even expensive apartments/condo's are now built with ~10:1 housing to parking ratio.....park in the street or drive a bike (sure, where it rains 9 months a year) is the mantra of the "planning" people.

So parking-meter style chargers at every spot need to appear ASAP and that's not going to happen.
So what if home owners get EVs before every one else? There aren't enough EVs yet for all of them anyway, so let them get the EVs first. If some people don't even want a car at all, that's also not a problem.

Parking-meter style chargers are possible and I saw one for the first time a few days ago. How many do you need?


I can't imagine why you'd say "that's not going to happen". It happened for quite a lot of other things.
 

Alan15578

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So what if home owners get EVs before every one else? There aren't enough EVs yet for all of them anyway, so let them get the EVs first. If some people don't even want a car at all, that's also not a problem.

Parking-meter style chargers are possible and I saw one for the first time a few days ago. How many do you need?


I can't imagine why you'd say "that's not going to happen". It happened for quite a lot of other things.
I have heard that many parking meters in Minnesota have plugins for electic ICE block heaters. I don't think EVs are well suited to extreme cold weather or heavily salted roads. I know that "Bullet" Bob Kaplow, in Chicago, bought a 4WD Tesla Model 3. It is very sporty and trendy, but I don not know how practical or cost effective it is.
 

boatgeek

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I have heard that many parking meters in Minnesota have plugins for electic ICE block heaters. I don't think EVs are well suited to extreme cold weather or heavily salted roads. I know that "Bullet" Bob Kaplow, in Chicago, bought a 4WD Tesla Model 3. It is very sporty and trendy, but I don not know how practical or cost effective it is.
EVs do lose some battery capacity in cold weather, but at least they do start (see ICE block heaters above). Salted roads are probably a wash compared to ICE, since the electrical components have to be well-sealed against any water ingress anyway and the frame components are similar. A few years ago, I saw a YouTube video of an AWD Tesla's dashcam as they went up a snowy hill. They passed about a dozen AWD ICE vehicles in the ditch. I've had no complaints about my FWD Leaf's handling in the snow, though we don't get that much in Seattle. As with anything related to driving in snow, AWD helps, but driver skill and not geting into bad situations helps a lot more.
 

Funkworks

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One doesn't help....need millions
The exact same thing could said about socks, smartphones, refrigerators and fire hydrants. If you want to place an order for 1 million, it will be newsworthy enough for me to post about it right here.

I have heard that many parking meters in Minnesota have plugins for electic ICE block heaters. I don't think EVs are well suited to extreme cold weather or heavily salted roads. I know that "Bullet" Bob Kaplow, in Chicago, bought a 4WD Tesla Model 3. It is very sporty and trendy, but I don not know how practical or cost effective it is.

If the winter range is enough for your needs, they are well suited. The important part is to be clearly aware that winter range and summer range are different. I wish dealers were more oepn about this. In my case, I know the Model 3 AWD long range would suit me, in my winters. In the meantime, I have a Hyundai that transforms from an EV to a hybrid when I say "Autobot! Transform!" (not true, it's actually with the flick of a switch - it's what PHEVs do.)
 
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dhbarr

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ICE vehicles also lose 10-20% efficiency in extreme cold weather, but you don't hear anybody wringing their hands about that.
My truck loses a fair bit of range in the summer because I accelerate too fast and crank the AC.
 

FredA

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The exact same thing could said about socks, smartphones, refrigerators
Those don't need right-of-way or permits.
We have a major commute corridor here that can't get a permit for the wiring for lights....been a year.
Digging up the sidewalks on all the streets to install the infrastructure will take years to clear the red tape....years....
Plus, who's providing the funding?
 

Funkworks

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ICE vehicles also lose 10-20% efficiency in extreme cold weather, but you don't hear anybody wringing their hands about that.
My truck loses a fair bit of range in the summer because I accelerate too fast and crank the AC.

Using a heater in the winter reduces EV range. Not a problem for short trips, but it can be on a winter road trip. I rented a regular Model 3 for a road trip last winter in part to test out those limits. I concluded the area needed more fast chargers next to the highway or that I would need the long range version.

Those don't need right-or-way or permits.
We have a major commute corridor here that can't get a permit for the wiring for lights....been a year.
Digging up the sidewalks on all the streets to install the infrastructure will take years to clear the red tape....years....
Plus, who's providing the funding?
You left out fire hydrants. Yes years, correct. Millions of projects take years. Not thousands, millions. I don't get into funding. Enough material to have its own thread. Maybe you could start a new thread about funding.
:computer:

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Lilium makes electric aircrafts. They're partnering with Honeywell and DENSO.

 
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neil_w

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Using a heater in the winter reduces EV range. Not a problem for short trips, but it can be on a winter road trip. I rented a regular Model 3 for a road trip last winter in part to test out those limits.
I lose about 30% of my range in winter on my Model 3; a more extreme winter might lose more. However, mine was before they started putting in heat pumps instead of pure resistive heating, so the new ones might do a little better in terms of winter range.
And it will take years for EV's to slowly saturate the market while the infrastructure develops. This is hardly a 'sky is falling' problem to be frantic about.
Don't you get it? It won't ever work because everything isn't perfect now. It is important to keep pursuing this argument in threads like this one where it has been expressly requested not to.

Perhaps I should head over to the Guns and Rockets thread and start arguing about gun deaths and mass shootings in the US. That would be cool, right?
 

Funkworks

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Don't you get it? It won't ever work because everything isn't perfect now. It is important to keep pursuing this argument in threads like this one where it has been expressly requested not to.

Perhaps I should head over to the Guns and Rockets thread and start arguing about gun deaths and mass shootings in the US. That would be cool, right?
I get what you're saying, it's like having someone trying to keep you away from whatever you like for no given reason: quite pointless. I could spend my time posting about everything I don't like about the Big Bertha and arguing with its fans. I just don't see why in the world I would do that. To each his cup of tea. No need to spill someone else's.

The good news is that good news keeps on coming.

"Single crystal Li[Ni0.5Mn0.3Co0.2]O2//graphite (NMC532) pouch cells with only sufficient graphite for operation to 3.80 V (rather than ≥4.2 V) were cycled with charging to either 3.65 V or 3.80 V to facilitate comparison with LiFePO4//graphite (LFP) pouch cells on the grounds of similar maximum charging potential and similar negative electrode utilization. The NMC532 cells, when constructed with only sufficient graphite to be charged to 3.80 V, have an energy density that exceeds that of the LFP cells and a cycle-life that greatly exceeds that of the LFP cells at 40 °C, 55 °C and 70 °C. Excellent lifetime at high temperature is demonstrated with electrolytes that contain lithium bis(fluorosulfonyl)imide (LiFSI) salt, well beyond those provided by conventional LiPF6 electrolytes."

 
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OverTheTop

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A charge cycle means charging the equivalent of 0-100% of capacity, not topping it off every day.
Not necessarily. Generalisations are just too general. Some cell constructions and chemistries effectively integrate the amount of charge/discharge over the life of the battery and can result in a very short service life for a battery. Gel cell lead acid batteries is one that comes to mind. They have a cycle life of about 500, up to 1000 if you are lucky, but if you use a crude charger that results in charge-discharge ripple it very quickly kills the battery. I am sure there are others as well, but I hope you get my point.

The generalisation also doesn't make sense from a logic point of view. If you discharge to 90% then recharge does it count as a cycle? 80% etc. What defines a "cycle".
 

Funkworks

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Not necessarily. Generalisations are just too general. Some cell constructions and chemistries effectively integrate the amount of charge/discharge over the life of the battery and can result in a very short service life for a battery. Gel cell lead acid batteries is one that comes to mind. They have a cycle life of about 500, up to 1000 if you are lucky, but if you use a crude charger that results in charge-discharge ripple it very quickly kills the battery. I am sure there are others as well, but I hope you get my point.

The generalisation also doesn't make sense from a logic point of view. If you discharge to 90% then recharge does it count as a cycle? 80% etc. What defines a "cycle".
If it isn't specified, a cycle is a full cycle at an average temperature, but those intimate with the subject can further define their cycle with rates, levels, temperatures, etc. i would assume that if an EV battery can take 10,000 full cycles, it can take at least as many "lesser cycles", because the charger, battery management system and cooling system in the car are tuned to care for the battery.
 
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