# Large electric motors, batteries and vehicles

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#### les

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
There is already a "standard" out there with water companies using multiple meters for different applications. I previously owned a house where there was one meter for domestic use and the other for lawn use. Not only did they charge differently, they also limited the amount useable on the sprinkler systems. I'm pretty sure this is common around the US.
Except for those of us in rural areas and get water from our personal wells. I never get a water bill. Just the electric bill for that covers the water pump...

#### BEC

##### Well-Known Member
Has anyone figured how the government will collect road use tax on EVs? Now they tax gasoline but as fewer people use gasoline, a different tax will have to be collected.
In Washington State I pay two surcharges on my annual registration for my Soul EV, one of which is an attempt to do this. I grudgingly understand this.

There is a move afoot in the state to try a mileage tax that would track how much you drive and charge you accordingly (regardless of the power source for your vehicle). That, of course, has all sorts of ramifications that make people, including me, less than thrilled. In the long run I don’t know what the solution will be. Clearly the roads will need to be paid for.

A month ago, a friend of mine purchased a new Prius "Prime", which is a "plug in" hybrid that's supposed to run most of the time on its battery. The manual states that a full charge requires 5 hours from a standard 120 volt outlet, or 2 hours from a special 240 Volt outlet (the type used by an electric clothes dryer). Her round-trip commute is 125 miles at highway speeds; when she works from home she generally drives 30 to 40 miles locally, and she frequently makes daily trips of 220 to 330 miles on work assignments, visiting her friends or on weekend get-aways.

Unfortunately she's had a few issues:
First, the car's on-board charging cable is not long enough to reach a suitable outlet in her house, and it's specifically stated in the manual that it not be used with an extension cord. Therefore she cannot charge at home or when visiting friends or get-aways. There are suitable charging stations at work, but they're sometimes occupied. She's used a public charging station once, but was dissatisfied with the multi-hour wait while charging.
Second, the car's battery apparently has a range of only 20 to 25 miles when fully charged (the dealer said that's typical). Since the majority of her trips are much longer than that and she can't charge at home, her car's battery is nearly always discharged. Fortunately the car is a hybrid, so the engine runs constantly unless she's braking, moving slowly or stopped in traffic.
Thirdly, her mileage is nowhere near the 50+ MPG that was claimed; it's actually not much more than her previous conventional Toyota RAV-4.

So how practical could a pure-electric car be for her? I'm feeling that for the charging time to be reduced to 5 or 10 minutes for full charge at public charging stations (such as at gas stations), charging systems and/or batteries will have to evolve to a much higher level than is currently attainable.

I don't see that rapid charging at home/work/friends will ever be economically feasible: It's my understanding that all existing and proposed rapid-charging stations require industrial-grade 3-phase power far in excess of that available in residential areas. Even when a medium-power 240 Volt dryer-grade connection (generally installed in a garage, which my friend doesn't have room for) is used, full-charge time for a modern long-range electric car exceeds 10 hours.
I suspect that warning to not use an extension cord is driven mainly by Toyota not wanting to be considered responsible when someone uses an inadequate extension cord and starts a fire. The first couple of months of our ownership of the Soul EV I used a 20A-rated 100 foot extension to connect the car to the supplied 120V EVSE as the only outdoor outlet we had (no garage) was around behind the house. It worked fine. On very rare occasions we still use this system.

But we had a level 2 EVSE (240V) installed on a front porch support post a couple of months into having the car and that is how we charge now almost exclusively. A ten hour charge isn’t as bad as it sounds - plug in when you get home, it’s done in the morning, and it only takes that long if you’ve run the car down to nothing during the day.

So for a pure EV for your friend, she’d need one with the range to do at least the 220 mile trips with a little margin, as well as install a level 2 EVSE at home. Any car like that will have the ability to be fast charged, which generally means recharging to ~80% state of charge in half an hour or so.

For the longer trips, finding one reliable place to do a fast charge either on the way out or on the way home for the longer trips would be needed. Here, Tesla has the advantage since they have a good fast charger network and so far as I know they keep it well-maintained. Third party charging networks for the rest of us have a very widely varying level of reliability (at least now). The Soul EV can be rapid charged using the older fast-charge standard and we occasionally use that ability as well…bearing in mind that sometimes one comes to a broken charger. We have one favorite that‘s behind a shopping mall that supports us doing some round trips beyond the range of the car.

#### boatgeek

##### Well-Known Member
A month ago, a friend of mine purchased a new Prius "Prime", which is a "plug in" hybrid that's supposed to run most of the time on its battery. The manual states that a full charge requires 5 hours from a standard 120 volt outlet, or 2 hours from a special 240 Volt outlet (the type used by an electric clothes dryer). Her round-trip commute is 125 miles at highway speeds; when she works from home she generally drives 30 to 40 miles locally, and she frequently makes daily trips of 220 to 330 miles on work assignments, visiting her friends or on weekend get-aways.

Unfortunately she's had a few issues:
First, the car's on-board charging cable is not long enough to reach a suitable outlet in her house, and it's specifically stated in the manual that it not be used with an extension cord. Therefore she cannot charge at home or when visiting friends or get-aways. There are suitable charging stations at work, but they're sometimes occupied. She's used a public charging station once, but was dissatisfied with the multi-hour wait while charging.
Second, the car's battery apparently has a range of only 20 to 25 miles when fully charged (the dealer said that's typical). Since the majority of her trips are much longer than that and she can't charge at home, her car's battery is nearly always discharged. Fortunately the car is a hybrid, so the engine runs constantly unless she's braking, moving slowly or stopped in traffic.
Thirdly, her mileage is nowhere near the 50+ MPG that was claimed; it's actually not much more than her previous conventional Toyota RAV-4.

So how practical could a pure-electric car be for her? I'm feeling that for the charging time to be reduced to 5 or 10 minutes for full charge at public charging stations (such as at gas stations), charging systems and/or batteries will have to evolve to a much higher level than is currently attainable.

I don't see that rapid charging at home/work/friends will ever be economically feasible: It's my understanding that all existing and proposed rapid-charging stations require industrial-grade 3-phase power far in excess of that available in residential areas. Even when a medium-power 240 Volt dryer-grade connection (generally installed in a garage, which my friend doesn't have room for) is used, full-charge time for a modern long-range electric car exceeds 10 hours.
I'm sorry that your friend's experience hasn't been good. That's really frustrating to buy a car thinking that it will be better and then it isn't.

1. Does your friend not have a 110V outlet in her garage near the car? If she did, then she could charge overnight every night and be in a much better place in terms of usage. Personally, I would have no problem running a heavy duty 110V extension cord across the garage. An electrician could also install an outlet in an hour or two if you can get on their schedule. The outlet could be 110V or 220V if the breaker panel is in the garage and has an appropriate slot open.
2. The car should have a DC fast charge port in this day and age (not to say that Toyota put one in!). That would cut the charge time at most stations from 2.5 hours to <1 hour. Virtually all dedicated EVs have a fast charge port, and there's an arms race on to offer faster charging at charging stations.
3. If you can cover your daily commute driving with charging at home on 110V or 220V, then all of this makes a lot more sense. Most of us have 10 or more hours of uninterrupted charging time while we're home, so that's a pretty decent metric--can you charge the car at home for your commute in 10 hours?

#### Banzai88

##### Lvl 1,Wallet....Destroyed
TRF Supporter
But we had a level 2 EVSE (240V) installed on a front porch support post a couple of months into having the car and that is how we charge now almost exclusively.
What does something like this cost?

#### neil_w

TRF Supporter
Unfortunately she's had a few issues:
First, the car's on-board charging cable is not long enough to reach a suitable outlet in her house, and it's specifically stated in the manual that it not be used with an extension cord. Therefore she cannot charge at home or when visiting friends or get-aways. There are suitable charging stations at work, but they're sometimes occupied. She's used a public charging station once, but was dissatisfied with the multi-hour wait while charging.
I would agree with Bernard that using an extension cord should be OK if you use one that is sufficiently robust.

Commonly, if a suitable outlet is not available, a plug-in car owner will get a new outlet in a better location, rather than have the ongoing struggle you describe.

Second, the car's battery apparently has a range of only 20 to 25 miles when fully charged (the dealer said that's typical). Since the majority of her trips are much longer than that and she can't charge at home, her car's battery is nearly always discharged. Fortunately the car is a hybrid, so the engine runs constantly unless she's braking, moving slowly or stopped in traffic.
Thirdly, her mileage is nowhere near the 50+ MPG that was claimed; it's actually not much more than her previous conventional Toyota RAV-4.
The battery-only range is something that should have been understood before purchasing the car. Plug-in hybrids are at their best when employed in more typical usage, which is short trips and a much smaller number of miles per day. *That* is when they can "run most of the time on the battery". 125 mile daily commute is not an ideal use case for a plug-in hybrid. I'm sorry your friend didn't really understand what she was buying.

Furthermore, mileage when running in hybrid mode really should be much better than that RAV-4, not sure what's going on there. My regular Prius reliably got 45-50 MPG in warm weather, and about 40 MPG in the winter.

So how practical could a pure-electric car be for her? I'm feeling that for the charging time to be reduced to 5 or 10 minutes for full charge at public charging stations (such as at gas stations), charging systems and/or batteries will have to evolve to a much higher level than is currently attainable.

I don't see that rapid charging at home/work/friends will ever be economically feasible: It's my understanding that all existing and proposed rapid-charging stations require industrial-grade 3-phase power far in excess of that available in residential areas. Even when a medium-power 240 Volt dryer-grade connection (generally installed in a garage, which my friend doesn't have room for) is used, full-charge time for a modern long-range electric car exceeds 10 hours.
10 hours is pretty close to worst-case, assuming you pull into your garage on empty, which you normally don't do. Assuming you sleep, that is normally enough time to recharge your car.

*Rapid* charging (i.e. DC fast charging, or Level 3 charging) is not intended for the home. You're not supposed to use it that often anyway, to maintain battery health. For 99.9% of potential owners, a level 2 (30-50A, 240V) charger at home is more than sufficient. Your friend could easily handle her daily commute without charging (other than at home, overnight), and perhaps one fast-charging stop would be necessary on her road trips.

Now, if your friend is for some reason unable to install a level-2 charger at her home, then that is a more difficult situation for BEV ownership.

[edit: fixed important error, in red]

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#### neil_w

TRF Supporter
What does something like this cost?
Cost me about $400. Somewhat depends on how far you need to run the wire from the panel to the outlet. Mine was fairly short. #### Banzai88 ##### Lvl 1,Wallet....Destroyed TRF Supporter Cost me about$400. Somewhat depends on how far you need to run the wire from the panel to the outlet. Mine was fairly short.
Is that the total package, hardware and installation?

#### neil_w

TRF Supporter
Is that the total package, hardware and installation?
All it is, in my case, is a 50A NEMA 14-50 outlet, so the $400 is the whole shebang. I use the charge cable that came with my car. A hard-wired charger, if you want that instead, would add something like$300-$500. It didn't really add any value for me, so I didn't even consider it. It's possible a 30A outlet (i.e. a typical dryer outlet) might cost a bit less. #### Banzai88 ##### Lvl 1,Wallet....Destroyed TRF Supporter All it is, in my case, is a 50A NEMA 14-50 outlet, so the$400 is the whole shebang. I use the charge cable that came with my car. A hard-wired charger, if you want that instead, would add something like $300-$500. It didn't really add any value for me, so I didn't even consider it.

It's possible a 30A outlet (i.e. a typical dryer outlet) might cost a bit less.
Thanks. I'm just trying to get a handle on what the charging support costs might be. I've ready wildly differing numbers, so I figured I'd ask you folks that actually made the investment.

#### neil_w

TRF Supporter
Thanks. I'm just trying to get a handle on what the charging support costs might be. I've ready wildly differing numbers, so I figured I'd ask you folks that actually made the investment.
It should be a very easy quote from an electrician if you want to get a "real" number (choose a location first, reasonably close to the panel if possible). Some (on forums, etc.) have reported somewhat higher cost; I don't know if their electricians are ripping them off or what. Mine isn't necessarily cheap or anything, he just charges honestly for time and materials.

#### BEC

##### Well-Known Member
What does something like this cost?
This is the one I got: https://store.clippercreek.com/featured/hcs-40-hcs-40p-ev-charging-station

#### neil_w

TRF Supporter
Toyota finally getting in the game:

#### boatgeek

##### Well-Known Member
I’ve owned five Teslas over the last nine years. We have two now and an ICE SUV that only gets used for going deep into the desert. 98% of the family miles are electric.
I realized the first week I drove the all electric car that it was the future and I could never go back… eventually selling a Mustang Cobra and other ICE vehicles. I’m also not a huge environmentalist on a mission. I love how perfect gas is as a stable and incredibly dense fuel. It has provided man and society with incredible leverage, but this thread isn’t about gas.
For me it is about the dozens of benefits of electric that far outweigh “the old way”. Every day when I wake up I have 350 miles of range. Going to a gas station is actually a huge PITA when you get used to having a full tank every morning. Like having to drive to a fill up station to charge your phone. Another big factor is maintenance. My neighbor has a Tesla with 210K miles and it has never needed brakes. I have a Tesla that is four years old this week with 45K miles and today it went in for new tires. It has not had a single service in four years, besides me replacing wiper fluid and a cabin filter. The old cars constantly need brakes, oil changes, radiator flushes, belts, etc. Heat and friction cause need for a lot of maintenance. Electric is also just insanely faster. 100% torque off the line and silent.
I often drive to Vegas from so cal (about 450 miles). On the way I stop once for twenty minutes to charge. Super chargers charge the first 60% very fast and the last 10% very slow. There is no need to fully charge. When I get to Vegas it is plugged in overnight. Like my phone.
That said, I still use the ICE vehicle for deep in the desert. I need something tougher and just a bit more range to feel safe. But I resent it every time I drive it. I have to use the brakes…every time I press them I feel money burning up expensive brake pads. It needs radiator flushing, transmission fluid, and other annoying maintenance.
When the cyber truck comes out I will likely swap out the SUV, since it has 500 miles range and is much tougher. I’m excited for new all electric trucks coming.
The issue today isn’t as much with the tech as it is with the price, but the cost of batteries and the tech is dropping rapidly. In nine years my range has doubled for the same price. That trend will continue for electric, so eventually you can have 1000 mile charge on cars. Charging in apartments and street parking also isn’t ideal yet, but we charge every night with long cord in the rain with no issues. I’m not a fan of hybrids, because you have twice the complexity. A lot of the same maintenance of an ICE car, but for many they provide a more affordable price to range ratio.
The future is electric. That is why Tesla is now valued at \$1T. It will just take a bit more time to drive down the price for the masses (like all tech that has come before).
I think the issue of maintenance doesn't get enough airplay. There's so few things that wear out on an electric car.