Lance Paint and Markings

Discussion in 'Scale' started by Bruiser, May 28, 2019.

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  1. May 28, 2019 #1

    Bruiser

    Bruiser

    Bruiser

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    Considering a simple build for my next rocket but am having problems finding the above data. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

    I do have the book Fourteen US Army Missiles of the Cold War which has the Always drawing and marking data.

    Thanks
    -Bob
     
  2. May 28, 2019 #2

    kuririn

    kuririn

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    The Alway paint and marking data seems pretty concise to me. What else do you need?
     
  3. May 28, 2019 #3

    Bruiser

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    I can't explain it, but the way its illustrated is just not clear to me. Like how wide the lines are, size of the lettering, etc. It looks different somehow...

    Bob
     
  4. May 28, 2019 #4

    kuririn

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    Did you see the lettering details and sizes on pg. 26?
     
  5. May 28, 2019 #5

    Bruiser

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    Kuririn, I'll have to look when I get home. I did see the line drawing with the specs and another drawing with markings. I'm not sure of the page number.



    So I started the design by drawing it up in OpenRocket. At 1/10th scale it has a diameter of 2.2 inches and a length of 24.something (sorry, oldtimers kicking in).

    The first design was with a 2.2 inch tube. I actually made two designs this size. One with parts from Rocketarium and one with parts from eRockets. I did that because of different wall thicknesses. I put in a 24mm mount. That was pretty un-impressive. I think it was between 350 to 390 feet with the 2.5 ounces of nose weight to get one caliber. I think the nose weight has to be because of the small fins.

    I took one of them and changed the mount to a 29mm to try for more altitude. With a F15 it made 400 feet because of the 5.5 ounces of nose weight so that is a no-go

    Next I put it on a diet and slimmed it to 1.9 inches which changes the scale to 1/11.5 but I only decreased the length to 22.5 (instead of 20.87 for the same ratio). It only needed 1 ounce of weight to get one caliber and with a D12 I think it made just over 700 feet.

    So I need to decide if I am going to stick with the 2.2 tube (the lighter one) and try some other things to try to get more altitude. The only things I can think of is to change the fins from basswood to papered balsa, make the fins slightly larger and change the 1/8 ply centering rings to cardboard. Any other ideas?

    The other option is to go with the 1.9 tube but keep the length at 1/10th scale. Again, change the fins from basswood to papered balsa and change the 1/8 ply centering rings to cardboard. Maybe play with the fin size a little to eliminate any additional nose weight. Overall, I'd be slimming the rocket .25 inch. I don't think it would be too noticeable...

    What do ya think? Any advice?

    -Bob
     
  6. May 28, 2019 #6

    kuririn

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    There were two fin sizes for the Lance, one for conventional warheads and one for nuclear. If you used the smaller fin design, try the larger one and see if you can get to one caliber with less nose weight.
    Not clear which tube you used. If it was a thick wall tube like the BTH-70, try the thinner wall, like a BT-70. Big difference in weight. Also if your centering rings are plywood, try fiber instead.
    Plastic nose cone? Balsa MIGHT be lighter (compare specs first) but more expensive. For more weight savings you can hollow it out.
    The now defunct TLP made mid sized military scale kits using thin wall tubes, balsa fins, and used economical 24mm motors. I have their Lance kit, here's the page for some ideas:
    https://www.the-launch-pad.com/lance
    Good luck!
     
  7. May 28, 2019 #7

    Bruiser

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    I looked at the aerotech tubing, rocketarium tubing, and some bth70 and bt 70 tube from erockets. They ranged in thickness from .05 to .021 I think.

    I was looking at plastic nose cones but I haven't found a 2.2 inch x 10 inch for the standard wall bt70 tube. If i go balsa i will make my own. I dont really think i have to worry about the weight of the nose cone.

    I was going with a 4 inch motor mount with three centering rings. Two in the main tube and a third inside the end of the boat tail. I also planned on just an engine hook, no retainer like I normally like.

    I did not even add an exhaust baffle to it.

    I am not sure how I will do the boat tail. Probably some seriously hollowed out balsa.

    I looked at the tlp Lance and the fins look huge. I seem to remember seeing another fin in the drawing. I used the size fin actually on the rocket in the drawing. I'll take another look at that tonight.

    I don't see how the tlp lance would fly on a Estes D12. It's much larger than the 2.2 size one I built so it's got to be heavier, no way around that...

    I'll try making some changes on both the 1.9 and 2.2 designs and see what OpenRocket predicts.

    Thanks for the ideas,
    Bob
     
  8. May 28, 2019 #8

    Bruiser

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    I did a little work when I went home at lunch to let the puppies out.

    Tweaked the 2.2 design. This now has

    3/16 balsa fins that I will paper. Not sure how to sim the paper in OpenRocket
    13" BT-70 light tube for main body
    ST-9 tube for motor mount with spring clip
    3 cardboard centering rings, 2 in main body, one in boat tail
    2" balsa boat tail
    24" parachute
    9.5 Poly Nose Cone

    I simmed it with a Estes D12-4 and got this data
    46.4 FPS
    605 Feet
    57.5 Second Flight Time

    Then I said hey, what about an Estes E12-4
    47.2 FPS
    1,069 Feet
    97.4 Second Flight Time

    The best part is no nose weight required with either motor. The big fins made the difference!

    I've attached the file if you'd like to look it over for me.

    Thanks.
    -Bob

    BTW, I thought page 26 was Little John markings.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. May 28, 2019 #9

    kuririn

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    Houston, we are go for launch!
    A cardstock boat tail might be nominally lighter.
    Tradeoff would be greater susceptibility to landing damage.
    I also prefer papering to painting the balsa with thin CA, as in the TLP kits.
    Less mess, more economical.
    Have fun.
     
  10. May 28, 2019 #10

    Ez2cDave

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  11. May 29, 2019 #11

    kuririn

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    Bob,
    Ran a couple more simulations on your OR file. An E12-6 will get you 40 more feet and a much gentler deployment than an E12-4.
    Just for the hell of it ran a sim with an F39-9 RMS. 1.03 calibers of stability, 75 fps velocity off the rod, and 1790 ft apogee. Yowzer!
     
  12. May 29, 2019 #12

    Bruiser

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    Those pics will help a lot deciphering the Alway marking guide. Thank you for them

    My design is pretty simple
    Lance Unfinished.PNG

    I have run into one snag though. The nose cones I have found are for .04 and .05 thick tubes. I need one for a standard BT-70 tube.

    -Bob
     
  13. May 29, 2019 #13

    kuririn

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  14. May 29, 2019 #14

    Ez2cDave

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    Bob,

    The outside diameter of a Lance missile is 22" . . . A BT-70 has an outside diameter of 2.217", making your model a 1 : 9.9233198 ( scale factor - .1007727 ).

    The nose cone of the Lance is 97" long . . . 9.7749519" on your model.

    This nose cone is virtually a perfect length @ 9.8" . . . http://www.erockets.biz/semroc-balsa-nose-cone-bt-70-9-8-ogive-sem-bnc-70nh

    This one is 9.9" . . . http://www.erockets.biz/semroc-balsa-nose-cone-bt-70-9-9-ogive-sem-bnc-70g4

    Another very cool "offshoot" of the Lance is the VOUGHT T-22 ASSAULT BREAKER . . .

    Dave F.
     
  15. May 29, 2019 #15

    Bruiser

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    I saw the balsa cones there and I do have a pretty good stock of balsa to spin up my own. I was looking for a plastic one though. Fast and simple; a little sanding and ready for paint.

    So far the only one I've found is at Apogee: https://www.apogeerockets.com/Build...th=42_47_257&zenid=01phubqs8uirjn08cncaqtpfo3 Cost is $15.25 but then shipping is another $8.88 and they only sell BT70 tubes in a four pack...

    I did see that Estes has a 2" nose Cone and 2" tubing that they use on the Pro kits. It looks like the nose cone is 9.75 long and it's 3.99 and the tube is 4.29 but I don't know how long the tube is. I did find that it is .040 wall thickness though so that might put the kibosh on downsizing the tube a little. Sent an email to Estes and am waiting for a reply.

    -Bob
     
  16. May 30, 2019 #16

    Ez2cDave

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    Bob,

    Don't forget that your Scale Factor will change with body tube diameter . . . Smaller diameter, shorter cone.

    Dave F.
     
  17. Jun 6, 2019 #17

    Bruiser

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    I thought I posted this last week but I guess not.

    Last Friday Elaine and I drove to Denver to bring a new German Shepherd puppy home. We show and breed gsds and now and then it's good to bring in new DNA...

    Anyway as we were driving thru coloroda springs I asked Elaine if we took a little detour. She said she didn't mind so 5 minutes later I pulled into Apogee Rockets. I was able to get what appears to be the only plastic nose of the right length made for standard bt-70 tube and a bt-70 body tube.

    Now I just need to figure out some way of doing all the stenciling and then we can do some building.

    I am considering this or a two stage design that I have another thread on concerning how to delay the chute opening

    Bob
     
  18. Jul 13, 2019 #18

    Bruiser

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    I went to the Space Museam yesterday to look at the Lance on display. The boat tail in the Alway drawing looks curved but you mentioned making it from cardstock. Well, it turns out it's a combination with a radius at the top then to a straight taper.

    Lance Boat Tail.jpg


    I did start to turn one and it's coming out pretty good. I went to hollow out the middle with a hole saw but I can't find the arbor for the size hole saw I need to use...

    -Bob
     
  19. Jul 17, 2019 #19

    Ez2cDave

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    VOUGHT T-22 ASSAULT BREAKER.jpg

    sig-d_01.jpg

    diagram.jpg
     
  20. Jul 17, 2019 #20

    Bruiser

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    That's an interesting rocket. I like the paint scheme in the top photo. I have actually been doing some research on that one. It's hard to find pictures of. I sent a pm to rharshberger but he hasn't replied yet. I think after reviewing several pictures of other rockets, it uses what seems to have been a standard pattern with some adjustments for the length of the stripes.

    I have actually started working on making the boat tail for the rocket. I'm doing a little on it while my main focus right now is on my Sea Tiger over in the low power forum. It's getting ready for paint though so I'll probably get more done on this while the paint cures on that one.

    Thanks for the pics,
    -Bob
     
  21. Jul 17, 2019 #21

    Ez2cDave

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  22. Jul 17, 2019 #22

    Bruiser

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    Those are the two I found. Here is the roll pattern off an Honest John as drawn by Peter Always with the pictures from above:

    Roll Pattern.jpg
    The stripes of the roll pattern look shorter but that will be fairly easy to figure out.

    Thank you,
    -Bob
     

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