L3 NAR kit or scratch built rules?

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Hobie1dog

Hobie1dog

Sea Killer rocket
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A friend of mine was discussing whether they could use a kit for their NAR L3 or does it have to be a scratch built rocket? I assumed that no one is going to be able to tell whether you gathered up the pieces yourself that are exactly the same ones that are used in a kit, or whether it is manufactured as an L3 kit. Just want to verify before they start on it as they couldn't find it in the NAR rules and guidelines.
 
It's pretty easy to find the rules. https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-3-hpr-certification/

Kits are allowed (as long as the rocket is "substantially built by the certifying flyer"), but pre-fab fin cans are not. However, anyone wanting to do a NAR L3 should talk to the L3CC member who will be signing off before buying anything IMHO. "Prior to the start of construction of the Level 3 Certification project, the flyer shall submit detailed plans for L3CC member review and approval."
 
mikec said:
It's pretty easy to find the rules. https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/level-3-hpr-certification/

Kits are allowed (as long as the rocket is "substantially built by the certifying flyer"), but pre-fab fin cans are not. However, anyone wanting to do a NAR L3 should talk to the L3CC member who will be signing off before buying anything IMHO. "Prior to the start of construction of the Level 3 Certification project, the flyer shall submit detailed plans for L3CC member review and approval."
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I read the L3 rocket requirements you linked, just like my friend did, and neither of us see anything mentioning the word "kit".:questions:
 
hobie1dog said:
I read the L3 rocket requirements you linked, just like my friend did, and neither of us see anything mentioning the word "kit".:questions:
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It doesn't say you can't use a kit. All I can say beyond that is that I did my L3 with a kit and my L3CC was fine with it, and many other people on this forum and elsewhere have as well.

But to emphasize, you need to talk to the L3CC before starting.
 
mikec said:
It doesn't say you can't use a kit. All I can say beyond that is that I did my L3 with a kit and my L3CC was fine with it, and many other people on this forum and elsewhere have as well.

But to emphasize, you need to talk to the L3CC before starting.
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They will do that, thanks.
 
hobie1dog said:
I read the L3 rocket requirements you linked, just like my friend did, and neither of us see anything mentioning the word "kit".:questions:
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There is nothing in there stating you cannot use a kit. I know a few that have used kits to do their level 3.
 
For what it is worth. Most kits that can be used for an L3 are just a bag of parts. The builder almost always puts a lot of custom touches and the recovery system is usually their design too. Not only are kits allowed in the rules, they are not in violation of the "spirit" of an L3 as well.
 
Kits are fine since any large enough for L3 still require a lot of GOOD building pracitces and planning of recovery systems, motor retention, Electronic deployment etc.

An L3 rocket is not like an L1 rocket where you just build the kit per instructions. This is also a reason the L3CC or TAP is required to sign off starting with selection/design.
 
waltr said:
Kits are fine since any large enough for L3 still require a lot of GOOD building pracitces and planning of recovery systems, motor retention, Electronic deployment etc.

An L3 rocket is not like an L1 rocket where you just build the kit per instructions. This is also a reason the L3CC or TAP is required to sign off starting with selection/design.
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I'm Tripoli and knew it was ok, but they are NAR and wanted verification on using a kit.
 
hobie1dog said:
I'm Tripoli and knew it was ok, but they are NAR and wanted verification on using a kit.
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There is very little difference between NAR and Tripoli L3 certs, mainly its the oversight required anymore. TRA requires two TAP's, NAR a single L3CC. The extra switching on electronics requirements that used to be a big sticking point on the NAR have been streamlined and are similar/same as TRA. Both groups still require, a proposal and sims for supporting documentation, documented build, a successful flight etc.
 
hobie1dog said:
I don't think my club even has two TAP's. 🤔
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Most clubs don't have any TAPs or L3CC's for that matter, in the PNW (Pacific NorthWest) we have two in Seattle, one in Spokane, and not sure if the one in Montana counts as PNW region, and I think there is one in OR. Actually our club has both TAP's and an L3CC as members but they are not local, nor are they at every launch. FYI...most L3CC's are also TAP's I believe, and its a small and exclusive club of good ole boy's (my opinion based on observations and what I know of the people in those positions, most of them are pretty good guys and at least one is a personal friend).
 
hobie1dog said:
A friend of mine was discussing whether they could use a kit for their NAR L3 or does it have to be a scratch built rocket? I assumed that no one is going to be able to tell whether you gathered up the pieces yourself that are exactly the same ones that are used in a kit, or whether it is manufactured as an L3 kit. Just want to verify before they start on it as they couldn't find it in the NAR rules and guidelines.
Click to expand...

Yes. You can use a kit.
 
rharshberger said:
Most clubs don't have any TAPs or L3CC's for that matter, in the PNW (Pacific NorthWest) we have two in Seattle, one in Spokane, and not sure if the one in Montana counts as PNW region, and I think there is one in OR. Actually our club has both TAP's and an L3CC as members but they are not local, nor are they at every launch. FYI...most L3CC's are also TAP's I believe, and its a small and exclusive club of good ole boy's (my opinion based on observations and what I know of the people in those positions, most of them are pretty good guys and at least one is a personal friend).
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I’m in Montana and I’m more than happy to help folks in the Pac NW. I’m somewhat limited in ability to travel (my wife is disabled and would have to travel with me) but much can be done electronically before the actual flight. I’m both a TAP and L3CC.
 
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Steve Shannon said:
I’m in Montana and I’m m more than happy to help folks in the Pac NW. I’m somewhat limited in ability to travel (my wife is disabled and would have to travel with me) but much can be done electronically before the actual flight. I’m both a TAP and L3CC.
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I know you are working/worked with at least one of my friends Kris H., and I think you maybe working with Ryan as well.
 
When I started my L3 project, I was going to scratch build based on a scale up of a novel AF I had previously used. I had a list of parts that I was checking prices on when one of the vendors had a great sale on a L3 rocket (about the same cost as my scratch). My mentors (~120 miles away) agreed to the kit with the comment that "kits are just a bucket of parts." I did make a number of fairly significant changes to the kit based on what I was learning from my mentors. And I learned a ton of stuff from them. I had built and successfully flown a number of rockets before but the forces involved with >= M motors took me into new directions. Lots of emails to my mentors with pictures showing the build. I did make a couple of trips over to meet with them to show the actual results and ask a lot more questions. All in all a very positive experience. My goal on all my certs was to succeed the first time. Good luck!
 
Flyfalcons said:
Ryan's been spending a lot of time clearing garage space for a new build table, but the beginnings of the project are there. 😀
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Let the chaos and shenanigans begin!

Can’t wait to see a large (yet another) Black Brant from you!

And is that another nosecone tip I see barely poking it’s tip from the top of that box?
 
hobie1dog said:
I don't think my club even has two TAP's. 🤔
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As mentioned above, one of my two TAPs didn’t live in my state, and we communicated via email and through the forum here. There are three TAPs in NC from what I can see on the Tripoli website, three more in GA, and several in VA. I’m sure many of them would be more than happy to help you or your friend if and when the time comes.

As for using a kit, my L3 build started life as a LOC 5.5” Sandhawk that I then modified extensively. But the heart of it is still the basic LOC kit.
 

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