L3 Certification Advice

[Rocket501]

Hi Everyone,

I have been L2 certified for about a year now and am looking on going larger and getting my L3. I am a college student and fly at Tripoli Central California, which is currently closed due to the pandemic. I am in contact with the two TAP's, but was hoping to get some advice so I can give them a good proposal.

At first I was planning on using a Madcow Fiberglass DX3 XL, Aerotech M1350 DMS, and eggtimer electronics for my project, but I think that there may be more affordable options available.

As for rocket kits, I am also looking at some Wildman options (Competitor 4 and the Wildman Extreme) which seem to be roughly comparable at a lower price. I have heard they don't come with any instructions, but that doesn't bother me. Is there any other reason to choose the madcow rocket over wildman's?

The other option I am looking at is Performance Rocketry's Arcas with upgraded nosecone and 75mm motor mount. Has anyone flown this or a similar rocket of theirs? The Arcas is one of my favorite sounding rockets, so I'd love to have something inspired by it as a kit, but I have no experience with canvas phenolic as a fin material. Is it roughly comparable with fiberglass?

I'm sure all of these kits can be built to survive an L3 attempt, but I'd love to hear what people who have built them think.

When it comes to electronics, I am thinking about going all eggtimer. I currently have their LCD gps box, gps mini tracker, and a quark altimeter. All work flawlessly for me, the price is right, and I enjoy soldering them. I am currently considering buying one of their TRS computer systems and using the quark to provide deployment redundancy. However, I soldered my previous eggtimer products in my college's lab space, which is currently unavilible. I'm thinking about getting a Hakko FX-888d. Is that what is still recommended? I'm willing to spend a little extra for a good product that will last a long time without needing to be upgraded, but if there is a cheaper alternative that people love, I'd consider it too.

As for recovery, I am thinking about doing drogue-less dual deploy. That's how I fly the majority of my L2 rockets as it seems to work well. I have a drogue that should work should I decide otherwise, but I'll need a new main. Any advice? I don't want anything fancy, but something relatively cheap and reliable that I don't have to sew myself. I am currently leaning towards one of the standard rocketman parachutes.

Finally, I've found a good deal on special ordering the M1350 from Sirius rocketry, but would anyone be willing to consider loaning me an Aerotech 75/5120 casing on a you break it, you buy it basis? $40 doesn't matter all that much to me, but being able to avoid the worst-case scenario of a 12 week lead time or $75 somewhat is. The other big deal is if I need to launch against, the price of an on-site reoad is about $300 compared to $400 for a DMS M.

I already have most of the other supplies necessary. I have a budget of about $1500 total, of which I am willing to spend about $1100 on my first attempt, so if I end up with minor damage which disqualifies me, I have enough left over to buy a M1350 from BAR for another shot. If I have budget left over from my goals, I'm planning on sticking a camera on the rocket to record the flight.

I'll draft an official proposal for the TAP's latter, but I wanted to first try to nail down my basic details first.

 

[Steve Shannon]

The Wildman rockets do come with instructions, but even better Crazy Jim has done some absolutely excellent builds that are fully documented here.
Canvas phenolic works like fiberglass.

 

[Cameron Anderson]

I did my L3 on a Madcow DX3 XL flying an M1350 I got from Sirius. Great flight - solid and rugged kit, fun motor. Ended up tickling 16,000'. I prefer Madcow over Wildman (personal preference) but I own and fly both and you can't go wrong with either.

I like spherechutes...flew my L3 with a 96" and it came down great.

Missile works RRC2's are very affordable and virtually idiotproof in terms of electronics. If you want something more high-end, consider the Marsa33. Check out the tilt gadget and wifi gadgets you can use with the Marsa - very cool options.

Fly what you know...if you know drogue less DD, fly your L3 drogue less DD. I fly my DX3 XL DD on a very small drogue.

I don't have an Aerotech motor but I have a CTI 75 6-grain I'm willing to lend if you wanna go big. I have some spacers too if you're feeling less bold.

I also have a TAP at my club in northern Nevada, solid dude, always willing to help, so if you can make it Black Rock, I can put you in contact with him.

 

[crossfire]

Just make sure who ever you buy the kit from its a stock item. Or you could be waiting months to receive it.

 

[tfish]

When it comes to electronics, I am thinking about going all eggtimer.

Make sure your TAP's see what you are planning for electronics. I as a a TAP would require you to at least 'pre fly' any newly built altimeters prior to being used in an L3 cert flight.

Tony
TRA L3 TAP

 

[Rocket501]

Thanks everyone for the support and advice.

As for the electronics, I actually happen to own a RRC2 though I haven't used it for a while. I like the idea of using one commercial altimeter and an eggtimer TRS.

I would certainly test-fly any home-built altimeter before using it in such an important (and potentially dangerous) rocket.

I'll also make sure any kits I'm looking at are in stock. I think I am currently thinking about the MAC Performance Arcas, but I'll need to do a little modeling to make sure it won't break the 16,800 foot waiver and that it is in stock.

 

[cerving]

I did my L3 with a Wildman Drago XL, I got it during one of their sales. If you haven't purchased the rocket yet and aren't it a terrible hurry, keep an eye out for sales... both Wildman and Madcow have been having them on and off the past few months. It's not the rocket that runs up the cost... the motor isn't cheap either, nor is the hardware. For the latter, you can probably borrow the case... I'm pretty sure that TCC has some to lend. L3-sized parachutes can be pricey, too, but you can move them from one build to another.

I'd also echo the advice about flight testing your Eggtimer stuff first... you don't want the maiden flight of your brand new tracker to be a L3 cert flight. Mine had two Quantums that had been previously flown, and a TRS in the nose (tracking only) that had plenty of flights on it. Everything worked flawlessly.

 

[mrwalsh85]

Don't be afraid to investigate scratchbuilds. However - sometimes those can be more costly than not.

If you're willing to wait a bit, Wildman has some amazing sales the Saturday after Thanksgiving. I kid you not, you can get your L3 for about $1k under his sales, maybe a little more when you choose your flavor of epoxy and electronics. You can certainly do a lot of your homework ahead of time so that when you're ready to go, you're ready to go.

More than one way to go about it. Have fun!

 

[boatgeek]

If you already have an Eggtimer Mini/LCD tracker, Quark altimeter, and a MW RRC2, I think you have your electronics needs covered unless you want more data out of your altimeter. In that case, a Proton or Quantum would be a good choice. Any decent temperature-controlled soldering iron with a fine tip will take care of your soldering needs.

 

[Steve Shannon]

This may be unpopular, but I’d like to suggest that the questions you’re asking are ones that would be great to answer for yourself (and at a lower cost) by flying more L1 and L2 rockets.

 

[Rocket501]

This may be unpopular, but I’d like to suggest that the questions you’re asking are ones that would be great to answer for yourself (and at a lower cost) by flying more L1 and L2 rockets.

That's a good point, but I've flown a lot of L1 and L2 already. I've built a total of 3 kits that fly on J motors and up, and built two level two scratch builds, one with blue tube and one with hand-rolled carbon tubing. I've also built a minimum diameter 98mm rocket which successfully flew on an O3400 as part of an internship.

However, I would still prefer to use a kit for certifications. The easiest question for me to answer with more flight experience is the question about parachutes, but I was mostly looking to see if there were any companies that I hadn't heard of to investigate.

I'd rather work on my certification over the summer than wait until Wildman's sale, though the savings seem great. However, wildman prices seem reasonable and I'm going to contact the owner to see if I could get a modest discount if I purchase a bundle of stuff all from him instead of parting it out. I've already heard a response from Mac Performance and that looks very promising too.

I really like the motor choices available for the 75/5120 and wildman has the casing on a nice discount, so I might just bite the bullet and purchase it if I can get some sort of package deal.

 

[Steve Shannon]

That's a good point, but I've flown a lot of L1 and L2 already. I've built a total of 3 kits that fly on J motors and up, and built two level two scratch builds, one with blue tube and one with hand-rolled carbon tubing. I've also built a minimum diameter 98mm rocket which successfully flew on an O3400 as part of an internship.

However, I would still prefer to use a kit for certifications. The easiest question for me to answer with more flight experience is the question about parachutes, but I was mostly looking to see if there were any companies that I hadn't heard of to investigate.

I'd rather work on my certification over the summer than wait until Wildman's sale, though the savings seem great. However, wildman prices seem reasonable and I'm going to contact the owner to see if I could get a modest discount if I purchase a bundle of stuff all from him instead of parting it out. I've already heard a response from Mac Performance and that looks very promising too.

Very wise! Wildman just announced a Father’s Day sale starting tomorrow.

I probably have a 75 mm case you can borrow. I intend to be at LDRS next year.

 

[rvanler65]

Try Bama chutes they have some nice options I only have 1 so far a small rotofoil to try them out. But am planning to redo my level 1 and 2 as I let them expire and I am looking at using their rotosail for my level 2.

https://www.bamachutes.com/

 

[crossfire]

For your chute check out Top Flight Recovery. They have been making chutes for almost 30 years and still offer a great chute at a very reasonable price.

 

[TimothyG]

Our student group has a loaner 5120 casing we use for students getting L3 certifications that you could borrow if you fly at balls or hellfire or LDRS. Plus I'll already be delivering you the PBAN buckets. Personally I go all out for my certifications but it shows in my failure rate as cert flights are the ones I'm most likely to have problems on so far. However I enjoy the process of certification more this way and I learn more from it. I'll be doing my second L3 attempt end of this summer once I have a range to fly on. First attempt had a few small errors combine to cause one big problem duing coasting portion of the flight.

 

[FMarvinS]

You can't beat Wildman for quality kits, prices, and unlimited expert advice whether you buy his products or not. For quality and low price, cross-fire's advice about Top Flight chutes is excellent (he is the former owner). Good Luck-and don't forget to buy your decals from Sticker Shock.

Fred,L2

 

[Bat-mite]

I know I'm late to the party, but here's my two cents on altimeters. Use two different brands/manufacturers. If there were some weird anomaly with one brand at a certain freak condition, you bypass it with the other brand. So Eggtimer, MissileWorks, PerefctFlite, Altus Metrum, Pico, Marsa, etc. Lots to choose from.

 

[richP]

You can't beat Wildman for quality kits, prices, and unlimited expert advice whether you buy his products or not. For quality and low price, cross-fire's advice about Top Flight chutes is excellent (he is the former owner). Good Luck-and don't forget to buy your decals from Sticker Shock.

Fred,L2

I'll second the expert advice part. While the other vendors are good and offer very nice kits, Tim from Wildman is very responsive and gives advice that would be worth charging $ for.

 

[mrwalsh85]

Wildman just announced his Father's day sale -- a new kit - Interceptor 98. 4" diameter, though I didn't think to check the motor diameter, but to give you perspective my 4" "performance" rocket (basic 3FNC) does about 16,900 on a M1315W. The Interceptor has what I consider to be somewhat-draggy fin design, so you would lose a little altitude. Plus, if you overbuild, you can throttle back on the altitude some.

Plenty of kits available at nice prices. Just have to keep an eye out!

 

[jd2cylman]

Wildman just announced his Father's day sale -- a new kit - Interceptor 98. 4" diameter, though I didn't think to check the motor diameter, but to give you perspective my 4" "performance" rocket (basic 3FNC) does about 16,900 on a M1315W. The Interceptor has what I consider to be somewhat-draggy fin design, so you would lose a little altitude. Plus, if you overbuild, you can throttle back on the altitude some.

Plenty of kits available at nice prices. Just have to keep an eye out!

The Interceptor 98 has a 75mm mmt. I've flown mine on L2375WT, L1520T, and M155R. The L1520 caused a little problem (not the rocket's fault) and resulted in a trashed booster. So I rebuilt the booster and flew the M1550R with no problems. When Tim cut the new booster tube he cut it to the wrong length. Thus I can fit the 75/6400 case in mine (It's worth the extra money). I love my Interceptor 54, and 98 so much that I'm building a Interceptor 150 (6") that I got for a steal at the last black Saturday sale. He also has the Cherokee D upscale kit with a 75mm mmt. Good hunting and shopping.

 

[mikec]

There are instructions available online for the Extreme Wildman. I used that kit for my L3, it's pretty bulletproof.

I don't recommend going drogueless with rockets of this size. I used a 24-inch Skyangle drogue.

 

[ksaves2]

Make sure your TAP's see what you are planning for electronics. I as a a TAP would require you to at least 'pre fly' any newly built altimeters prior to being used in an L3 cert flight.

Tony
TRA L3 TAP

I was going to say Tony you're F.O.S. about pre-flying electronics but after thinking about it for a week, you're right. If I get around to an L3 project, that's exactly what I'll do. Pre fly the electronics successfully "THEN" install in the L3 rocket. I will have more time as I'm retiring July 1st and after I clean up the house and my two little workshops, I'll be flying again. (Hopefully a lot!)
Best regards, Kurt Savegnago

 

[tfish]

Kurt,

Thanks for taking the time to think it over..before posting.

Tony

 

[Rocket501]

I got into contact with wildman rocketry. Tim offered me a very generous package, so I’m buying almost everything (except the electronics) from him.

I decided to just purchase to 51/5120 casing as it is on a nice discount.

I’m going with the Extreme Wildman for the rocket and dual deploy with a drogue.

Thanks everyone for your advice and feedback.

 

[FredA]

I was going to say Tony you're F.O.S. about pre-flying electronics

I'll say it -- sorry Tony.
If your altimeter checks out on the bench, odds are huge it will work OK in the air.
Talk about an arbitrary and capricious requirement.......

Why so much FUD regarding electronics? Especially if you have two on board?

 

[boatgeek]

I'll say it -- sorry Tony.
If your altimeter checks out on the bench, odds are huge it will work OK in the air.
Talk about an arbitrary and capricious requirement.......

Why so much FUD regarding electronics? Especially if you have two on board?

For commercial altimeters, I'd 100% agree with you on construction defects. For self-assembled electronics, there is a small but not unreasonable chance that you'd have a weak solder joint that came loose under boost accelerations or deployment shocks. Flying the altimeter on some rocket is a good way to check that before a high-stakes flight.

Flying on a smaller rocket is also a good chance to check that your programming/settings worked the way you expected. Not so much an issue on simple deployment programming or if you have other altimeters of the same make/model, but that's another potential source of failure that you can address before flight.

 

[tfish]

I'll say it -- sorry Tony.
If your altimeter checks out on the bench, odds are huge it will work OK in the air.
Talk about an arbitrary and capricious requirement.......

Why so much FUD regarding electronics? Especially if you have two on board?

Fred, how does a "bench check out" simulate + and - G force and other things that could reveal bad or cold solder joints? A test flight would also help in knowing that the flier knows how to program/set that altimeter.
When we take on these TAP assignments we are also 'buying in' for some of the responsibility on how the flight goes...good or bad.
I may even have one or more things that you may call arbitrary and capricious that I feel is important for a good safe flight.

Tony

 

[jd2cylman]

I'll add one thing. If you have never used a deployment bag, your L3 cert flight is NOT the time to try it out...

 

[Rocket501]

I'm not planning on doing anything that I haven't done before. While I have usually done drogue-less dual deploy, I have used a drogue before. I do not plan on using a deployment bag for this flight.

Edit: I actually have used a deployment bag before, I just don't think one is needed for this flight.

 

[mrwalsh85]

I'll add one thing. If you have never used a deployment bag, your L3 cert flight is NOT the time to try it out...

Guess I should do my L3 over again, then?