L1 Cert choices

Rockethound

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Hello, TRF. A funny thing happened Saturday. I flew Estes rockets when I was young and again when I had children. After randomly stumbling into YouTube posts on N2O/Rubber rockets, I came to know HPR. I first want to thank all the kind, wise and generous folks who contribute to TRF. I've learned a lot from searching through the posts. I came to Saturday's LUNAR launch to see what modern HPR is all about. What a treat! Here's the first L2 flight I've seen in my life.

DSC_6504.jpg


This beautiful rocket was launched by pcalvin here on TRF. He introduced me to his family, allowed me to join him at the pad, and shared his love of the hobby with me. Thanks, Phil! ("Whoosh!")

The funny thing that happened was different. I gotta say, this was a magical weekend meeting wonderful people. As I drove up, I thought "There are more cows than people!"

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I found a place to park and walked towards the pads. I was amazed to run into a very familiar sight just 15 feet from my car.

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Do the center two look familiar? They are the Wild Thang and Scarab from Mr. G's build thread. It was rather mysterious... I had been reading that thread on Friday night, thinking of the Scarab as a possible build choice. I came to the LUNAR launch to see if HPR appealed to me - and ran across the two models I was thinking of, and Mr G, who was as kind and welcoming as the rest of LUNAR.

I live in Sacramento, so my club choices are SARG and LUNAR. I will join both. SARG has a 1500' waiver with a no HPR rule; G and below only. LUNAR will be my HPR club, but I want to test my L1 rocket closer to home at SARG as well. Their launch dates are often staggered, so I might get two a month.

People often wonder about the OP's POV in this kind of thread. I would consider myself a wild man. I come from 25+ years of flying HP sailplanes, such as this 2.5m Energic.



It drew 2.2KW and climbed at 180-200fps. From my hand to 600' in 4 seconds. This would be a L or M kind of sailplane. I like to build and fly strong models that handle speed well. At the same time, I want to fly my L1 cert rocket with a 1500' waiver.

It seems that neither of the rockets in Mr G's thread really suit me. I'm now considering a Wildman Jr. and a Blackhawk 38. Since Tim advertises the WMJ as suitable for F-J motors, it seems an obvious choice, and I like it for what it is. OTOH, I have this wild man thing and like the BH38 for its HP purity. This might be an embarrassing statement, but after what I've read at TRF I think you will be kind. I have considered building the BH38 and using a 38-29 adapter for MPR flights. This was mentioned in a build thread... someone saud they would check into the feasibility of using a 38-29 adapter in a BH38, but I saw no follow-up.

So I offer it to the group for your thoughts. I want to enjoy H/I motor performance with a tracker at LUNAR while still launching G motors at SARG. I prefer the pedigree, lines and style of the BH38, but I want to launch DD with 1500' waivers because I enjoy the deployment style. Would the BH38 suit me, should I go for the Wildman Jr, or are there other recommendations worth considering?

Thank you... my first TRF post...

Randy
 

DavidMcCann

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Welcome! A few fast points, to the point ;)

a wildman Jr is a Wildthing Jr with different fins. I think it would suit you fine at LUNAR and you'd really enjoy flying the higher end L1 motors (look up the I600R from aerotech ;) ) It should fly OK on bigger G motors if you cut out the payload. I think you'd have a hard time playing it DD on G motors with the full rocket. (too heavy)

a BH38 could be adapted to a 29mm motor. Several ways to do it, I'd make a typical motor mount, with thick plywood centering rings. Instead of gluing it in, as typically done in rockets, simply drill 3 holes in the airframe where the CR's are, counter sink them, and attach the mount with #6 screws.

Personally, I'd get two rockets at least.
OK, personally I'd get a few more than two...
28810263786_73ae78bd10.jpg



Naw... just get two. One to rip on H/I, and one to fly for fun on G's. Something in the 2.6- 3" range with a 38mm mount will give nice controlled flights to 800-1200 feet on G's depending on how you build/what it's built out of.


If I could only have one.... it'd be a 54 with a 38 hole. Build it long enough to fit the L2 motors you'll want to fly in it one day. ;)

Tim makes great rockets, I have several. Some other places to look for ideas-

https://macperformancerocketry.com/collections
https://www.madcowrocketry.com/kits/
https://www.locprecision.com/rocket-kits/

There are many materials to choose from. Cardboard, Bluetube,phenolic, Canvas phenolic, fiberglass, carbon fiber, unobtanium..... All have their advantages and downsides. read around the forum and pick which ones sound the best to you. Fiberglass seems the obvious choice.... but you can do some wild stuff with cardboard too that won't happen in FG on an I motor.
 
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qquake2k

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I too like the I600, but I prefer big slow moving rockets.

P1100067.JPG
 

qquake2k

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Certainly slower than a 38mm minimum diameter! I love that red flame!
 

DavidMcCann

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Of course, Looking at SARG's site... they say no HPR...and a G limit. Technically speaking.... Two G80's clustered is not HPR ;)
 

Rockethound

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OK, personally I'd get a few more than two...

Lol, I hear that and love the photo. I want FG for its strength as I grow in the hobby, but I want to stay under 1500g so is isn't class 2 and I can fly at SARG. The Scarab does this - the only 54/38 at Madcow that stays under 1500g. Funny you'd mentioned the WT fins, as I prefer not having the cutout W. That's one of the reasons the WMJR is high on the list. It's 54/38 and maybe it can be flown under 1500g with DD but no tracker. The BH38 isn't as practical but it's enticing. Does anyone have an OR or Rocksim file on either?
 

qquake2k

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I don't know, G80's are pretty energetic. I'd say it would depend on the weight of the rocket.
 

DavidMcCann

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Rockethound

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OK - now I show my noob-ness. SARG says "no HPR". One interpretation is the same as "G and below". The other is <1500g rocket and <125g propellant.

Now that I type this, it seems obvious I should ask SARG. I very much enjoy low'n'slow, but thought it's something I can only launch at LUNAR. I have to build some rocket first, and the goal is to test it at SARG then earn L1 at LUNAR.

If anyone from SARG is out there, please say Hi. Otherwise I'll write the president of SARG - like I wrote the president of LUNAR, who was quite polite in his reply to my search for (oops) Phil Kelvin. (pcalvin)
 

Rockethound

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Another L2 Dark Matter launch on Saturday, seconds after Phil's. This was by a young man, early 20's, didn't get his name but the rocket was a champ. Ii this hobby cool or what?

DSC_6508.jpg
 

Rockethound

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Basically, the listed weight by most manufacturers is highly optimistic at best, and the weight of bare parts in the box at worst.
Thank you. That is the kind of practical advise I wanted to learn. Thx also for the files. Mr G said his Wild Thang weight was 5.4lbs. I could not get there using OR from the info available to me.

Wildman's page on the WM Jr says F-J motors. Maybe that's taking into account SD as well as DD. Lots of nuances to learn.
 
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DavidMcCann

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OK - now I show my noob-ness. SARG says "no HPR". One interpretation is the same as "G and below". The other is <1500g rocket and <125g propellant.

Class one is <1500g rocket and <125g propellant. That's FAA. (you'll find we have multiple sets of regulations/rules/fairytales to follow, and none make sense). It gets you a fair bit into H motors.

But SARG does list a G limit, which they may have set for various reasons. The largest G I've found is the Aerotech G75J for the 29/180 case. Which unfortunately is a hazmat item :(

For my L1, I built a replica of my favorite estes rocket. But out of Bluetube. It flew on an H133BS for my L1, and flies on everything from an F50, to an I200W

(H133, F50, I200)
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Normally, I'd recommend people start this way. Simple, not complex. You've got the background to handle complexity, so DD isn't a huge deal. use lipos, thin shock cord, don't go crazy on the epoxy... it may be possible to get a jr under 3.3 pounds on a DD setup.
 

Rockethound

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Thank you, David. I've enjoyed your comments. OMG there's no way to keep up or thank everyone for their input. In fact, right now in CA I have to thank my wife for her love and care - time for dinner!
 

DavidMcCann

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Thank you, David. I've enjoyed your comments. OMG there's no way to keep up or thank everyone for their input. In fact, right now in CA I have to thank my wife for her love and care - time for dinner!

Enjoy dinner, and keep asking questions. We love answering them.
 

MikeyDSlagle

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I have the Wildman Sport, which is just a shorter version of Wildman Jr and it stays under 1500 on G motors. It barely flies on F motors at all. So you would have to build a Jr super light. You can fly the Jr without the payload and it will likely do good with G motors and should come in under the 1500 gram limit.

MAC Performance stuff is a bit lighter than fiberglass I think, but just as tough...I think. I have one MAC kit still in the box.
PML (https://publicmissiles.com/secure/) has their Quantum tube. But it can't do Mach so probably not a good idea in a 54/38 combo. I have one of their kits still in the box as well.

New on the scene is Mach 1 rocketry. https://www.mach1rocketry.com/ Haven't tried em, but they use fiberglass as well; and have some interesting kits.

Also Binder Design if you want a cardboard/plywood kit. https://binderdesign.com/ Did my level 2 on the Tyrannosaur.

If you liked the level 2 flight, wait until you see an M+ flight.

m8500.jpg nike.jpg

Neither of these are mine. The first is Paul S's L3 project on an M2100G (?), it's a big rocket, that is me zooming in on the away pad. The second is Scott Taylor's Nike Smoke on god knows what, don't think it was actually an M, a big K maybe.
 

markkoelsch

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Might I suggest a Wildman Wildchild with the dual deploy upgrade? Flies great on 24 mm F as a single deploy, and can take up to a small I in 29mm. A fairly versatile and durable rocket for relatively little cost.


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DavidMcCann

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Might I suggest a Wildman Wildchild with the dual deploy upgrade? Flies great on 24 mm F as a single deploy, and can take up to a small I in 29mm. A fairly versatile and durable rocket for relatively little cost.

I'm betting this is where he'll wind up. 38mm as a first av bay will be challenging, but the rest will be cake after this one lol.

Flew my Eagle Claw Mini on an F52.... always wanted to build an av-bay and chop it in half to fly on an H268R.... Never got around to it. Sold off most of the parts, But a 38/29 with DD and tracking is still high on my 'To Do" list.
 

blackjack2564

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I came to Saturday's LUNAR launch to see what modern HPR is all about. What a treat! Here's the first L2 flight I've seen in my life.

That's a Wildman DarkStar 3in. build thread at top of High Power "sticky"

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...DARKSTAR-3-OR-ANY-GLASS-KIT-BUILD-quot-STARTS



I have this wild man thing and like the BH38 for its HP purity. This might be an embarrassing statement, but after what I've read at TRF I think you will be kind. I have considered building the BH38 and using a 38-29 adapter for MPR flights. This was mentioned in a build thread... someone saud they would check into the feasibility of using a 38-29 adapter in a BH38, but I saw no follow-up.

Yes they fly well on 29's, even Big G's adapter is very simple to make. Finished only weigh's about 2lbs.
BlackHawk build thread:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?16374-New-Wildman-38mm-BlackHawk-prototype-first-look-!

Thank you... my first TRF post...

Randy


Just put nose cone on the fincan of BH 38 and fly small hobby 29's.

I've been to both real [airplane towed] & model sail-plane events. I feel about those, like you do here about rockets...LOL I like it...but understood little of what was going on.

Friend of my father had the real one, it was a beauty.
The model event I went to with a friend was amazing. They launched with a giant catapult, probably around 100ft long rubber somethings..wingspans on those monsters was 10ft and over. They filled the sky and stayed up for what seemed forever & did amazing stunts.
, both individually and in groups. That was in southern Ohio at the old "Radio Free Europe" field. [V.O.A] Voice of America where they broadcasted from huge towers to Russia during the Cold War.
Much skill required to do that sport!

If you can build and fly those beauties.... I would think you already have the skill sets needed to build & fly a fiberglass Blackhawk.
They come with glue & fin alignment guides, chute & shock cord. You will need more shock cord and a few more items for dual deploy.
Just follow the build thread above, that became the instructions.
Fly what you like!
 
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Bat-mite

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Check out the MAC Performance kits at macperformancerocketry.com. They are made of canvas phenolic, which is kind of a stepping stone from cardboard to FG. They sand well, take paint well, and can be built with 30-minute epoxy. I got my Level 3 on one, the Radial Flyer.
 

Andrew_ASC

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My prof got his L-1 cert on a Blackhawk 29 with a H118 no tracker. There were no winds on that salt flat that day and he got his cert. It landed 40 yards from pad but went a mile up. You'll lose sight visually. If there were winds we would've never seen it again. The vendors called it hella nuts to attempt a cert on min diameter. We didn't know better is all I'm saying. Stuff a GPS in a FWFG nosecone if you want to see that BH38 again.

I'm trying to cert on a Wildman RB-05A sport scale missile, it has less packing volume, but I enjoy a challenge. Flies nice with a pound of lead. I wouldn't recommend it as a cert rocket. Failed my first cert attempt last year. If you buy a short rocket make sure it's really wide and draggy. Else packing becomes a nightmare.
 

Rockethound

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Good morning. This is the most supportive, thoughtful and polite forum I've ever run across. Thank you all for who you are and what you do!

I really, really hate bugs.

Uh-oh. I write a CAD program for designing model railroads (www.TrackPlanning.com). I've been at it for 20+ years, so there are now 500,000 lines of C++ MFC-based code to keep in sync. I really, really hate bugs too - but I write them and I have to fix them.

I talked to Mike (BAR) at the launch. We both started to do business in the hobby we love, causing us to essentially lose interest in pursuing the hobby. I still build them for others, such as this layout of Walt Disney's property in the early 50's when he had a ride-on 1/8 scale live steam railroad.

DSC_5430-4.png

Here it's on exhibit at the Disney Family Museum in the Presidio (SF). They display it every year November-January, calling it "Home for the Holidays". The family gave us lots of blueprints and docs to get the model spot-on. I have one that I shouldn't share (it's a Disney personal family photo) of Salvador Dali riding on it, looking ever so dignified with his erect posture, classic mustache and elegant pocket handkerchief. Building railroads for others now gives me the hobby feeling I used to get when I built for myself. Note - Dali and Disney collaborated on a short but enchanting animated film named Destino; it's on YouTube. The Disney staff made models of Dali and his wife, placing them on the bench where they enjoyed sitting.

TheDalis.jpg

The point of this - to anyone who thinks that doing business in their hobby is the best of both worlds... avoid the temptation. Who wants to do the same thing day and night?

This also gives you some more background on me. I'm an old-school HW/SW guy as comfortable with circuit design and a soldering iron as assembler or object-oriented programming. I have a CNC router and laser cutter in the garage/shop to make things for the model railroad community that I hope to use to fabricate parts for a rocket build in the near future.

Two G80's clustered is not HPR.
I think a 3" on two G80's with a DD setup should maybe stay under 1500...
Enjoy dinner, and keep asking questions. We love answering them.

Super stuff, David! I've been lurking here for over a month. I bet I've read >100 threads. The most attractive thing about TRF is the unending support you provide for each other. I saw an older post by Crazy_Rocketeer asking if a 32" chute was enough for his 10lb rocket. Even *that* got courteous responses!

Class one is <1500g rocket and <125g propellant. That's FAA. (you'll find we have multiple sets of regulations/rules/fairytales to follow, and none make sense).

My temporary avatar speaks to this. I'm IFR rated with >500 hours PIC. As I read in another thread where a sugar-rocket experimenter was asking about the rules, you've gotta read them all and consider them together. Same thing for pilots, with that added gotcha of being responsible to "know all information relating to the flight". Like maybe the NOTAMs for an HPR launch?

Class 2 is an official HPR, thus I considered anything class 1 would be fair to fly at SARG. But here I am writing to you folks rather than SARG. Doh.

Normally, I'd recommend people start this way. Simple, not complex. You've got the background to handle complexity, so DD isn't a huge deal. use lipos, thin shock cord, don't go crazy on the epoxy... it may be possible to get a jr under 3.3 pounds on a DD setup.

I think you're being kind and supportive, but I'm getting the message. The weights on the mfr sites aren't representative of the final build weight. I have a Wild Thang Jr. OR file I pieced together from parts lists. Mr G said his launch weight with an H178DM was 5.4lbs. The OR file has chutes, shock cords and even the aluminum nose tip. But I had to make the av bay 1200g to bring the overall weight with motor to 5.4lbs. I've learned in this thread what I didn't know: a LOT of weight appears in HPR rockets that isn't readily apparent to the neophyte.

I may be doing what I caution my wife to avoid: trying to incorporate so many conflicting goals that no solution is possible. Paralysis by analysis.

I have the Wildman Sport, which is just a shorter version of Wildman Jr and it stays under 1500 on G motors. It barely flies on F motors at all. So you would have to build a Jr super light. You can fly the Jr without the payload and it will likely do good with G motors and should come in under the 1500 gram limit.

My gosh, another reality check. I've flown Estes rockets a lot and wanted DD even at SARG just because it's cool and NASA-like. Is it possible the Scarab is going to end up the bird of choice? I gotta check with Mr G to see what its empty weight is. It isn't "proper" to build a Wildman super light. This is called learning and that's why I came to TRF... where no one told me to search the existing posts, thank you!!!

New on the scene is Mach 1 rocketry. https://www.mach1rocketry.com/

Merci, that a new mfr to me. I think I've viewed every Aerotech, Madcow, PML, Wildman and assorted other mfrs' rockets. I know I will be pursuing Mach at some point, so I want to work with FG from the beginning. I'm also most comfortable with FG and CF from the sailplane experience. The Energic in my first post has its antennae outside the fuse, as the whole plane is spread-tow CF - a Faraday cage to RF.

Might I suggest a Wildman Wildchild with the dual deploy upgrade?

Thanks! That's an interesting suggestion, not at all apparent just looking around Tim's site.

I'm betting this is where he'll wind up. 38mm as a first av bay will be challenging, but the rest will be cake after this one lol.

Yeah, I can see it's a challenge. I learned a lot from Jim Hendrickson's excellent BH38 build thread, and to be honest, also from Caley Ann's Mini DX3 thread. She was a new to rockets, coming from R/C, and some of the suggestions were quite helpful. Truth be told, the av bay was pushing me to 54/38.

Yes they fly well on 29's, even Big G's adapter is very simple to make. Finished only weigh's about 2lbs. BlackHawk build thread: ...

Hi CJ. Thank for your stepping in. I've learned more from your posts than seems possible. You built six rockets in three weeks?!? That photo of rocket hardware and boxes ready to go in the trailer is one for the ages. I had been looking at a Mongoose before reading your thread... now I won't spend the money on a Faraday cage that underperforms the BH38.

Oh, random thought. I'd been looking at cert launches on YouTube and ran across a two-stage CF rocket that broke 100K. Son-of-a-gun, it was Jim Jarvis, another great contributor here. TRF is Rocket Central to be sure!

Yes they fly well on 29's, even Big G's adapter is very simple to make. Finished only weighs about 2lbs.

Wow - is that DD or NC on the fincan? Maybe the BH38 will work for lazy days at SARG and crazy days at LUNAR.

Just follow the build thread above, that became the instructions.
Fly what you like!

I have to smile. You and Tim obviously go back a ways and share motivations. "Fly what you like" is sound advice.

The model event I went to with a friend was amazing. They launched with a giant catapult, probably around 100ft long rubber somethings..wingspans on those monsters was 10ft and over.

Surgical tubing. You walk back until your arm muscles are shaking, then Whoosh! off she goes! SVSS uses 24V winches mostly, so people can launch pure gliders to 800-1000'. The new FAA regs WRT drones have an exception for sailplanes flown by AMA members, which are pretty lame limited to 400' altitude.

I fly electric sailplanes. Motor launched, 800W - 2KW, then the prop folds back when the motor is turned off at altitude. No winch to set up... you can fly pretty much anywhere you can land, and the CSFM has nothing to say about it. Here is a photo my father took of me launching a 3.7m Graphite (12.1' wingspan).

Graphite.jpg

Graphite.jpg

This was running about 1KW, so it climbed fast but the very lightweight wings let it soar a long time. I'd regularly get 30 minutes of soaring from one climb to 600-700 feet. But, man, if you crater one of these you're out $2500-$4000 depending on your tastes. (crater = lawndart) It's easy to lose sight of a sailplane at 1800 AGL if you take your eyes off it, and once you've lost it...... you listen for it? Sometimes you hear a whistle and get a reprieve, other times you hear a crunching sound and start the Walk Of Shame.

Oddly, I don't see any CFK rockets, while CFK sailplanes are all the rage.

Check out the MAC Performance kits at macperformancerocketry.com. They are made of canvas phenolic, which is kind of a stepping stone from cardboard to FG.

I will, thank you. I'm pulled into FG by my background (and its ease of finishing). I don't even know what canvas phenolic is at the moment, but it won't take long to learn.

My prof got his L-1 cert on a Blackhawk 29 with a H118 no tracker.

OMG, brave soul. My plan was to start low, perfect DD at altitudes where I can see the whole flight, then put a tracker in once the airframe and my procedures are solid. It'll be an Eggfinder, what else would fit in 38mm and be easy on the wallet?

If you can build and fly those beauties.... I would think you already have the skill sets needed to build & fly a fiberglass Blackhawk.

Thanks, Jim! I appreciate your support and confidence. I am thinking, though, that I'd best learn MD filleting on a practice fincan before doing the deed on the BH. There's a beauty to a good fillet and the BH deserves quality construction.

Time for my day job. I wonder what's been posted while I wrote this?

Take care... Randy
 

DavidMcCann

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I think you have two conflicting goals, but they&#8217;re obtainable in one of two ways-

a 38/29 that is definitely under 3.3 pounds, and will break a mile on a large 29mm I. Not the craziest, but exciting

fight to keep a 54/38 under 3.3 pounds with a G motor (weight includes motor). It will fly the largest 38mm I motors. Building lightly will not really affect ability to handle large I motors in my opinion.

i don&#8217;t have a thinwall FG 54/38 to weigh, I&#8217;m sure others will chime in soon

i do have a MAC canvas 54/38 I&#8217;ll load up tonight and weigh. I forgot what it was last launch.
 
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Rex R

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as a comparision point, a 3" 'cardboard' av-bay built from a kit weighs in at about 450g.
Rex
 

Rockethound

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You might be interested in seeing the altimeter plot from a flight of the Graphite. It looks much different than rocket data!

Altitude.png

The first climb was to 400' but I couldn't find any thermals. The second climb was to 500' where I found a nice thermal and circled up in it to almost 1200'. That thermal broke up or I flew out of it, but I found another a few minutes later - good enough to maintain altitude. The day was near an end, so I did a dive and a loop, then brought it in for a safe landing.

I shouldn't hijack my own thread, but hopefully some of you will enjoy seeing this.
 

CPUTommy

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The Scrab 54 does alot more than that.. my 38 mm that is a tough tough bird. Its waiting for its 10k voyage..

https://youtu.be/4ceXLBDZX9g


welcome to the sport, and the board.. You wont find a better group of guys and gals out there...

Tom





Lol, I hear that and love the photo. I want FG for its strength as I grow in the hobby, but I want to stay under 1500g so is isn't class 2 and I can fly at SARG. The Scarab does this - the only 54/38 at Madcow that stays under 1500g. Funny you'd mentioned the WT fins, as I prefer not having the cutout W. That's one of the reasons the WMJR is high on the list. It's 54/38 and maybe it can be flown under 1500g with DD but no tracker. The BH38 isn't as practical but it's enticing. Does anyone have an OR or Rocksim file on either?
 

Rockethound

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Fight to keep a 54/38 under 3.3 pounds with a G motor (weight includes motor). It will fly the largest 38mm I motors. Building lightly will not really affect ability to handle large I motors in my opinion.

That was my goal when I first posted. Hopefully someone will chime in with a 54/38 TWFG weight to calibrate me. On Madcow's Scarab page, the poster said he was successful building it Class 1. That's the only affirmative I've seen so far. Yes, please let me know what your MAC rocket weighs.

As a comparision point, a 3" 'cardboard' av-bay built from a kit weighs in at about 450g.

Ah. A pound of avionics and hardware. Thanks, Rex, that's a very helpful number. 3" or 54mm, the tube weight matters little compared to the guts.

FWIW the avionics for my Bonanza cost as much as the airframe. Something similar is happening here.
 

boatgeek

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You just need more than 2 rockets. :) I'd suggest a fleet of 3 to start:

38mm HPR cardboard body, 24mm or 29mm mount. This will fly nicely on F power to 1000 feet or so. There's lots of fun and relatively cheap motors for this one. If you build 29mm motor mount and it's light, you can do silly things like the CTI 3-grain longburns to 3000 feet or so.

54mm or 2.6" body and 29mm or 38mm motor mount. This is G-I territory, although a fiberglass 2.6"/38mm will easily take a J. A 54mm cardboard body is easy to keep under 1500g, and will fly nicely on G or more punchy F motors. This probably stays under 1500 feet on G motors and can do dual deploy.

2.6" or 3" fiberglass with 38mm or 54mm motor mount. This is your big fun rocket for launching among the cows.

No matter what launch you go to, you have 2 rockets to fly. You can do any of these from kits or scratch. I'm a scratch fan myself, but YMMV.
 
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