# K'Tesh's OpenRocket Files Feedback Thread

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#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
Here's an idea... If you've got questions or feedback on my sims, you could post them here. This can help keep the thread from spinning off topic (as it does from time to time).

If you don't know about the sims, I've created an index of them, and here's a link to the actual thread.

K'Tesh's OpenRocket Tutorials
K'Tesh's OpenRocket Nosecone Tutorial
K'Tesh's OpenRocket Nosecone Library
K'Tesh's OpenRocket Parts Library
neil_w's Decals in OpenRocket: a not-so-quick and fairly complete tutorial

K'Tesh's Building Tips
Papering balsa/ply Fins... A foolproof method (No Runs, Drips, or Foul language)

Plans.rocketshoppe
JimZ

And don't forget to "like" the ones you've used... It can give me a feel for what I should work on next.

Pointy Side Up!

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#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
And for today... It's the current take on the Estes Super Neon (7242)

There have been two previous versions (both were given the kit number 2050) that used the PNC-50YR nosecone. This one uses a new (at least to me) nosecone. As it has tube fins, with balsa fins glued on top of them they are not fully supported in OR 15.03. Because of that, I had to use a PBT to mount the fins in the proper location. This means, at least until the new version of OR drops, the flight characteristics are not accurate as is. By removing the PBT, but restoring the fins to the main body tube (through the magic of two objects existing in the same place at the same time that OR allows), I was able to come up with the flight data seen in the graphic.

I have plans on doing sims of the other versions, as they both unique (each version has a different length for the fin tubes), but I am lacking the info needed to finish them at the moment (I need good scans of the fins and decals with a ruler (for scale)).

Nice work. I really need to learn how to do the graphics. You should put together a instructional video on Youtube for doing the paint jobs on these this. This work is amazing.

I've kicked around the idea of a 2.5 or 3.0 inch version of this with a slightly different fin design for a while and I might need to make it a reality now that I have a reliable sim file to begin with.
I've thought about doing videos, but I've got a ton of other projects (like cleaning my apartment (moving and removing a ton of stuff)) that have to get done before I can direct any serious time into that. However, at the top of this thread, I've got links to several related threads and tutorials. The Index thread also has the same links.

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#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
I like the design, and wish I would have bought one.
Looking at scratch building one (someday?) and maybe upscale it and maybe 2 stage (someday?)
Someday? Only if I live to be 200 with everything I have going right now!
Hi Woody...

I have no idea which kit you were referring to... I'm presuming that it was the Fireaero. If I were to live to be 200, I'd have so many more projects to do, I'd need to be Methuselah.

#### rklapp

##### NAR# 109557
TRF Supporter

If needed, you can hit the reply button to the post your interested in talking about, then copy and post that in the feedback thread.

All that said, you can hit the "Like" button on the posts with the designs you like to let me know which designs struck your fancy. This can serve as encouragement for me, and might guide me towards other kits for future sims.
Isn't there someway for the Admins to make the thread read only so only you can post? You can then go through and delete the other posts. I don't think it would be rude, just efficient.

I like the design, and wish I would have bought one.
Looking at scratch building one (someday?) and maybe upscale it and maybe 2 stage (someday?)
Someday? Only if I live to be 200 with everything I have going right now!
My Super Neon clone is an excellent flier. I never did put the fins on.

#### rklapp

##### NAR# 109557
TRF Supporter
Taking requests? I would like to sim the Antar. Do the small vertical fins make much of a difference?

I only get 216ft on a C6-5 and 266ft on a C5-3. I would like to try a D20-4W.

#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
Taking requests? I would like to sim the Antar. Do the small vertical fins make much of a difference?

I only get 216ft on a C6-5 and 266ft on a C5-3. I would like to try a D20-4W.
I could get you the appearance, but until the next version of OR drops, I couldn't say if you'd get valuable flight info.

#### rklapp

##### NAR# 109557
TRF Supporter
Unfortunately, Jimz' scans of the Tartar do not have rulers. However from your file, we know the circumference is 4.16" and root of the fins are 6.78cm long so can size the decals and fins accordingly.

#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
Unfortunately, Jimz' scans of the Tartar do not have rulers. However from your file, we know the circumference is 4.16" and root of the fins are 6.78cm long so can size the decals and fins accordingly.

JIC anyone wants to directly link to the TARTAR's post... I've got this: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/kteshs-openrocket-files.123564/post-2178913

Currently his doesn't (he's updating files now)... However, if you click on the image, and go to the associated album, you'll be able to view the image with 600 DPI for scaling. Then again, I just tossed links to them in the post.

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#### Greg Furtman

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
@K'Tesh I downloaded the Renegade ork and there are no fins. ??? Is it supposed to be this way?

#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
@K'Tesh I downloaded the Renegade ork and there are no fins. ??? Is it supposed to be this way?
D'OH!!! I uploaded the wrong file... It's fixed now. While I was writing the tutorial, the program just closed the window on what I was doing, and I had to recreate it. You got that version. I need to delete it.

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#### ZoomieG

##### Member
Hey K'Tesh,

Let me start by saying I find your work inspiring. Studying your sims is how I learned to build in openrocket. With an engineering background and a little CAD experience, I started making sims of many classic Estes kits you haven't posted yet. My limiting factor is the graphics; I have little-to-no experience with graphical editing, and I haven't tackled figuring that part out yet. Your recent tutorial was helpful, though.

In your recent Vagabond sim (1423), I found it quite clever how you used a zero-length transition with dual shoulders to simulate the PNC-50YR shoulder piece. I had actually started a sim of this when I got started in openrocket a few months ago, but hadn't got around to the graphics/decals. I've attached a shot of our sims side-by-side. Pretty close.

Keeping more to the theme of this thread, here is some feedback I've noted on previous sims:
FireAero - you have overlapping shoulders on the nose cone; one on your sim of the cap, and a residual rear transition from the earlier version of the 50YR that is still on the back of the front transition piece.
Sizzler 1906 - your sim of the version with the two piece 50YR still has a one inch straight-wall transition from the one-piece 50Y version, making the rocket 24.5 inches long instead of the 23.5 it should be.
Centuri MARS - To answer your question from this post; your new trick is the use of tiny offset body tubes to mimic the molded launch lug on the side of the Enerjet 1340 fin can. I didn't see this sim until after building my own Estes Eliminator sim. I noticed that your fins are longer, with a fin tip of 2.5". The full fin span, according to the original Enerjet plans*, is 5.8". If the center tube is 1.45" in diameter, that leaves a root-to-tip for each fin of 4.35/2= 2.175 inches. I measured the fin cans on two Eiminators, one Eliminator XL, a Maniac, and both cans from a Longshot. All show a root-to-tip of ~2.175". How did you come up with your fin size?

*https://plans.rocketshoppe.com/enerjet/enj1340/enj1340.htm

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#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
Hey K'Tesh,

Let me start by saying I find your work inspiring. Studying your sims is how I learned to build in openrocket. With an engineering background and a little CAD experience, I started making sims of many classic Estes kits you haven't posted yet. My limiting factor is the graphics; I have little-to-no experience with graphical editing, and I haven't tackled figuring that part out yet. Your recent tutorial was helpful, though.

In your recent Vagabond sim (1423), I found it quite clever how you used a zero-length transition with dual shoulders to simulate the PNC-50YR shoulder piece. I had actually started a sim of this when I got started in openrocket a few months ago, but hadn't got around to the graphics/decals. I've attached a shot of our sims side-by-side. Pretty close.

Keeping more to the theme of this thread, here is some feedback I've noted on previous sims:
FireAero - you have overlapping shoulders on the nose cone; one on your sim of the cap, and a residual rear transition from the earlier version of the 50YR that is still on the back of the front transition piece.
Sizzler 1906 - your sim of the version with the two piece 50YR still has a one inch straight-wall transition from the one-piece 50Y version, making the rocket 24.5 inches long instead of the 23.5 it should be.
Centuri MARS - To answer your question from this post; your new trick is the use of tiny offset body tubes to mimic the molded launch lug on the side of the Enerjet 1340 fin can. I didn't see this sim until after building my own Estes Eliminator sim. I noticed that your fins are longer, with a fin tip of 2.5". The full fin span, according to the original Enerjet plans*, is 5.8". If the center tube is 1.45" in diameter, that leaves a root-to-tip for each fin of 4.35/2= 2.175 inches. I measured the fin cans on two Eiminators, one Eliminator XL, a Maniac, and both cans from a Longshot. All show a root-to-tip of ~2.175". How did you come up with your fin size?

*https://plans.rocketshoppe.com/enerjet/enj1340/enj1340.htm
Good catches...

About the Vagabond... it's only appears to be a zero length transition... In order for it to work (and give flight data) it has to have a little length... IIRC, it's .0000001" long (or something close to that). I should mention that somewhere... In the morning would be good.

FireAero... Why so there is... It's 3:13AM Local... I'll get on that when I come to in the morning. There's something odd about the endcap, but I was literally about to fall into bed when your post dropped.

Sizzler 1906... I'll have to look at that again. I've just recently received one with a PNC-50Y, and I have some YRs laying around. That's an old sim (VERY OLD), and I may have mislabeled the nosecone as IIRC the exact version of nosecone supplied wasn't ID'd and I may have gotten confused as to what is what in those early days. The reason for the additional straight wall transition is that the Y is fatter than the YR... Looks like I should update the sims for the nosecones in the library to get them labeled. Also to add the newer info for the YR's method of doing the end cap. Now, keep in mind with the sims below, that aft conic section is added to the length, and doesn't reflect the exposed length of the PNC-50Y (which would be 4.259" exposed).

When it comes to posted lengths from Estes catalogs, I've learned not to trust them... prime example... The 1970 Astron Cherokee-D had a 16.35" body tube, which was later switched out for an 18" long body tube. Yet during its entire run, the catalog didn't update the length. I'm willing to be that if you check on the Courier, you'll see that they didn't update the length when they switched from the balsa nosecone to the plastic one either.

Centuri MARS... IIRC someone provided me with a drawing of it, before my personal sample arrived, and I trusted them to be accurate. When it came to the molded launch lug, it had arrived, but I didn't think to double check the fin span. I just did with the original part, and I got a measurement of 2 3/16" (2.1875"). I'll need to fix that, and the other affected sims. This is validation though for documenting the parts properly in the sims. So, even if the author of the sim messed up on a measurement, as long as the person cloning it is able to get the right part, the rocket will turn out right (even if the flight data's a little off).

Please keep up on the checking of my work... It keeps me honest.

Now, it's 4:07AM Local... My eyes are about to drop out of my head...

All The Best!
Jim

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#### ZoomieG

##### Member
K'Tesh,

The part in the Sizzler sim that looks extraneous is highlighted in the first picture below. I've taken a shot of the two nose cone sims side-by-side, and I think that part is the "fat" straight-wall portion of the 50Y that isn't in the 50YR, but might have gotten left in when you switched out the nose cone.

As for the 1340 fin can, forum user Jack Hydrazine made a 3D model of it and posted it to both the forum* and to thingiverse**. If you follow the link to thingiverse, his last picture has dimensions. Credit goes to him for that image.

Cheers!

**https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3641770

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#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
The PNC-50Y is not messed up... That is, as close as I can reproduce, the correct shape of the nose cone. as I said, it's "fatter" than the PNC-50YR nosecone. I had a kinda busy day (work and chasing down things for the weekend) and I'm bushed (it's now almost 1 AM), and I will need to get some rest before I hunt down the physical samples to show you.

The extra part found in the PNC-50YR sim appears to be an error that popped up in the sim of the Estes Solar Flare (2401). That kit has two Nosecone Insert parts, the forward one for the nosecone itself, and the 2nd is meant to be glued into the "Insert Sleeve" which was how it secured the payload section to the Nosecone Insert. Somehow, I copied the "Insert Sleeve" with the Insert itself and pasted that into the nosecone. Later when saving the nosecone as a sim of its own, or copy/pasting it into other kits, It stuck around as a vestigial part. All in all, it's "Mostly Harmless", but I'll need time to eliminate it from any/all sims affected by it. I'll probably have to create a tutorial to show how to identify it, and eliminate it for those who downloaded sims that have it, and post a corrected sim without it. Nice thing is... It'll give me a chance to update those old sims to reflect my current sim practices (mostly using part list names, rather than generic names), but again, it'll take time to hunt down and eliminate it.

I'm sure that Jack did a great job on the fin can, but seeing how I managed to get messed up (again) by a drawing*, I think I'll do my own measurements. I mean, I have one of the oldest versions of that fin can produced sitting not two feet away from me at this instant.

*The drawing that really chapped my A was that of the fins for the Estes Marauder (1922). Back in my university days, I had no job, and very little money, and somehow, I got back into this hobby (it was the 808 camera that hooked me). My unfinished (for 20 years(ish)) Marauder's fins had gone AWOL, and I was looking to finish it, as it'd be a cheap way to build a kit. I find this sim of the kit, make a special trip to the LHS (over 10 miles by bicycle and/or bus) buy the balsa, cut the fins, glue them on, and promptly notice they're wrong (the angle was not right, and I can't unsee it). I ruined the (hard for me to replace at the time) body tube, and motor mount because someone did a "good enough" (for them) job of simming the fins. Even a second source's (P.RS.C's) fin drawing are not accurate (still nearly 9 years later, I just checked). This is what pushed me into OR simulations, and why I insist on including a ruler for scans of the fins and decals. It's a lot harder to mess up sims when you're working with the originals, or at least good scans of them. Someone told me that there was another kit (the Estes Cyclone (1907)) that used the same fins as the Marauder, and in that case the fin template was a scan (with ruler) of actual fins. I have yet to find (go looking for actually) any details about the Cyclone's nosecone as it's a very rare shape (and not that impressive to boot), and as such I haven't simmed it up yet (but I probably should).

There's an old measured drawing of the Cineroc that was done that I had taken for being accurate (and so did Mike Dorffler), and was basing some work on, until I sat down and actually measured real parts. I've posted an updated version of that drawing on TRF. The author of that drawing had an assembled one in hand and didn't want to de-value it by disassembling it, whereas I had one that was already in parts, and thus unobstructed measurements were possible.

I bet you didn't think you'd be getting my Origin story... I sure as hell didn't think I'd be posting this (again). And I can't believe how many rabbit holes you've got me chasing down right now... I've got more .ork files (16) opened now than I've had in ages.

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#### ZoomieG

##### Member
My apologies; I don't seem to be communicating the sizzler point properly.

I am not criticizing the nose cone shapes or sims themselves, and I understand why you use the transitions the way you do; I read your outstanding nose cone tutorial. What I am trying to say is that one of your sizzler sims appears to have parts of both the 50Y and 50YR nose cones in it. I suggest looking at the sizzler sim itself, specifically the one titled "Estes Sizzler (1906) Stock (Injection Molded Nosecone)". Unfortunately, I can't see what you are referring to on Solar Flare; it doesn't look like you posted the sim of that rocket (at least I can't find it).

Switching gears, I forgot to include some information for you on Vagabond 1423. According to the Estes Kit List posted on rocketshoppe*, the Vagabond starter set was only available for two years (1989-90). This can be verified with the Estes catalogs posted on the Estes website**; the Vagabond starter set is marked *NEW* in the 1989 catalog, and no longer appears in the '91.

*https://www.rocketshoppe.com/kit_lists.htm
**https://estesrockets.com/catalogs/

I appreciate the "Origin Story", as you put it. As a new forum member and BAR, I had not heard it before. Your frustration with the Marauder resonates with me; I also have found many posted .rkt files and templates to be inaccurate, some bizarrely so (vendor produced). Looking at those two rockets, Marauder does indeed use Cyclone's fins. Not only are the part numbers the same, but as those rockets are Damon era, they have full parts lists in the exploded diagram of the instructions. Both are available at rocketshoppe plans, as I'm sure you are aware. Note that Marauder's fins are marked as type "BF-1907". 1907 is Cyclone's kit number, where that part number appeared the year earlier. You see a similar situation where Mean Machine, despite being kit #1295, used BF-1278 fins. They are Vigilante fins.

I had never looked up Cyclone before, as I did not find it visually appealing, but now I find it historically interesting. It's body tube is listed as "ST-1312". That's a Centuri body tube. Cyclone was introduced in 1983, the last year that Centuri was a separate line. I imagine if Cyclone had been released a year or two later, it's tube would be labeled BT-56. This also gives a a good clue as to it's unusual nose cone. While the part type is not listed, it's part number is 72132. Because it's an ST-13 tube, it follows that it is a PNC-13 nose cone. Centuri nose cone part numbers from other kits instructions that I've seen tend follow the last three digits of the part number, e.g., part #72106 is a PNC-106. So I'd wager it's a PNC-132. This was a 2.7" Bezier nose cone used in kits such as the Space Shuttle KC-6, Taurus, and Evel Knievel Sky Cycle, and matches the shape shown on the Cyclone face card and catalog appearances. This nose cone was also used in the Enerjet Nike Ram. Semroc/eRockets makes a copy in Balsa called BC-1327, but it is currently out of stock.

Sorry to send you on a deep dive! Try not to stay up too late

#### K'Tesh

##### OpenRocket Chuck Norris
Off to bed in a few minutes... Just opened the sim you mentioned in the post above... Man... That *IS* *OLD!!!* back from the days when I used fins to fake decals because I couldn't work out how fin decals worked. I should just nuke that sim... When I wake up and can think straight (the rum isn't helping things). [EDIT] Turns out that file wasn't with fake fin decals (keeping track of old versions can be a bit of a nightmare for me as there are lots of them) but ZoomieG was correct it had an extra piece that I've since removed[/EDIT]

The Cyclone and the Astrocam 110 share a common body tube size (though the Astrocam was a WBT (white body tube)). I actually have a couple of samples of that here, though one of the body tubes (unbuilt) was destroyed in shipping. Good catch on the Vigilante fins... I can't remember if I made that connection... However, it could also tie in the Estes Raven (2029) which I believe use the same fins (but the description in the instructions wasn't thorough enough to specify the part number.

As to the Cyclone, I'm not at all thrilled with it (sorry to any fans of it for all the negative waves). But I'm intrigued by the connection to the Astrocam and the Marauder. I've faked up a nosecone for it using the Semroc SEM-BC-1321, which I lengthened to get it to match the length dimension. Man its a real Oddball (Woof! Woof! Woof! That's my other dog impression). I don't know if I'll finish it, the decals are lacking any indication of scale (I might be able to suss that out, but not right now, I've got bigger fish to fry).

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