Junior certification and dual deployment?

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SkidmarkMonster

Active Member
Hello everyone,
I'm currently certified as a junior level 1 for NAR. I want to build an altitude buster but all my designs I came up with need dual deployment. I already have considered jolly logic's chute release but have decided against it as there is no redundancy. I know that minors are restricted from the use of altimeter DD but I was wandering if I would be able to do it if I had adult supervision while I did it. Please let me know what I can do with this and thank you in advanced.

firesalto

TRF Supporter
Hi skidmark I am too a junior L1. You are definetly allowed to do DD with a junior. You may have heard that you can't but that is just because you are not allowed to handle the black powder ejection charges since you are a minor. But you can have all the electronics set up in your rocket but at the launch have an adult handle the black powder charges. You are definetly allowed to use electronic DD with only a junior L1 in NAR. I'll be glad to help answer any other questions you have on DD or the legal rules of a junior L1 and I'm sure others will be glad to as well.

SkidmarkMonster

Active Member
Hi skidmark I am too a junior L1. You are definetly allowed to do DD with a junior. You may have heard that you can't but that is just because you are not allowed to handle the black powder ejection charges since you are a minor. But you can have all the electronics set up in your rocket but at the launch have an adult handle the black powder charges. You are definetly allowed to use electronic DD with only a junior L1 in NAR. I'll be glad to help answer any other questions you have on DD or the legal rules of a junior L1 and I'm sure others will be glad to as well.
Thank you very much with this. I will definitely be building my design now. I'm also going to post a build thread for it.

TRF Supporter

SkidmarkMonster

Active Member
I don't quite understand what you mean by link but the name of the thread is "Junior certification and dual deployment?"

jimzcatz

Boss, Carolina Rocket Mafia
Ok, you don't under "link" but you think you are competent enough for a, what did you call it, "altitude buster" project? Seriously? At a minimum you should have attempted to find out (Google)? before saying so. RMESMDH!

dhbarr

Amateur Professional
Hello everyone,
I'm currently certified as a junior level 1 for NAR. I want to build an altitude buster but all my designs I came up with need dual deployment. I already have considered jolly logic's chute release but have decided against it as there is no redundancy. I know that minors are restricted from the use of altimeter DD but I was wandering if I would be able to do it if I had adult supervision while I did it. Please let me know what I can do with this and thank you in advanced.
Two JLCR's in series should fulfill the fully-redundant requirement.

SkidmarkMonster

Active Member
Two JLCR's in series should fulfill the fully-redundant requirement.
The only problem is they don't fit very well in a 38mm minimum diameter rocket.

SkidmarkMonster

Active Member
Ok, you don't under "link" but you think you are competent enough for a, what did you call it, "altitude buster" project? Seriously? At a minimum you should have attempted to find out (Google)? before saying so. RMESMDH!
Look, I'm new to the forum and I didn't quite understand what he meant at the moment. I was tired at that moment and didn't realize that he was talking about the project thread I was talking about. and yes, I'm very competent of building an altitude buster rocket.

dhbarr

Amateur Professional
The only problem is they don't fit very well in a 38mm minimum diameter rocket.
Yes, that does change things up a bit . This conversation should definitely continue with your local club, ideally with the person whose name will be on the flight card.

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boatgeek

Well-Known Member
Yes, that does change things up a bit . This conversation should definitely continue with your local club, ideally with the person whose name will be on the flight card.
As junior L1, isn't Skidmark's name on the flight card? Definitely start talking to the adult who will be building your charges, though. and figuring out what GPS tracker you'll use since that's going to be needed to ever see your rocket again.

Zeus-cat

Well-Known Member
As junior L1, isn't Skidmark's name on the flight card? Definitely start talking to the adult who will be building your charges, though. and figuring out what GPS tracker you'll use since that's going to be needed to ever see your rocket again.
I agree that you need some sort of tracking. A minimum diameter 38mm high power rocket should go very high. What does open rocket or Thrustcurve give you for an altitude?

manixFan

Not a rocket scientist
As junior L1, isn't Skidmark's name on the flight card? Definitely start talking to the adult who will be building your charges, though. and figuring out what GPS tracker you'll use since that's going to be needed to ever see your rocket again.
Hmm, I use simple radio trackers (Marshall style) and have tracked 54mm MD rockets that went over 23,500' and landed over 4 miles away. (BALLS flights.) In my experience watching others with GPS trackers I much prefer the simplicity of radio beacon style trackers. And while possible, fitting a GPS in a 38mm rocket is a challenge.

I flew a 38mm MD rocket on a Loki K627 to 15K' and a much smaller 38mm MD on a CTI I55 to over 7,000' and and got them back using my Marshall trackers.

What GPS tracker have you used that will work well for a 38mm rocket?

Tony

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firesalto

TRF Supporter
As junior L1, isn't Skidmark's name on the flight card? Definitely start talking to the adult who will be building your charges, though. and figuring out what GPS tracker you'll use since that's going to be needed to ever see your rocket again.
Yes his name goes on the flight card when he flys with H and I motors

dhbarr

Amateur Professional
Yes his name goes on the flight card when he flys with H and I motors
Good to know, thanks.

ksaves2

Ahhhhhh, I've seen some pretty nice rockets fly in the past where the bulk of the building was performed by a young person. They were "flown" by an individual who had the appropriate level for the motor and could handle stuff like the BP and alike.
I don't understand what Skidmark meant by "no redundancy" with the JLCR. With a single electronic DD without using a motor ejection backup, there isn't any redundancy there either.
I don't think there's anything wrong with a young person who wants to launch high. They want to launch high within the limits of what they can construct. Nothing wrong with that. They need to be concerned with tracking though whatever it might be
as a project like that can do a disappearing act and never be seen from again.

Maybe an older veteran can comment but I believe there have been at least a few L2 or even L3 capable projects built by young people that have flown successfully with a rated flier on the launch card. Again, nothing wrong with that. I believe Steve Eves
Saturn V was with another L3 on the team and Steve did an L3 flight some time after the Saturn flew. Correct me if I'm wrong on that point.

I've press fit an EggFinder GPS in the nosecone of a Madcow/RW 38 Special I'm putting up with an H220-14 this weekend and will report back later. I have some comments to make on the EF GPS experiences from MWP14 I had last weekend.
Good news is they find the rockets on the down side after apogee. The bad news is I wasn't able to get as much live data from them as I'd like. I'm going to try a patch antenna and see if that helps. There still are very worth it as I had a prior successful find from a totally unseen ballistic flight. I was able to go to the site and dig a rocket out that otherwise was lost. That's about as extreme as it can get aside from super high G flying. More later. Kurt Savegnago

blackbrandt

That Darn College Student
Maybe an older veteran can comment but I believe there have been at least a few L2 or even L3 capable projects built by young people that have flown successfully with a rated flier on the launch card. Again, nothing wrong with that. I believe Steve Eves
Saturn V was with another L3 on the team and Steve did an L3 flight some time after the Saturn flew. Correct me if I'm wrong on that point.
Definitely doable. See below:

View attachment 305037

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I was one of those young people once who was flying L-2 DD under a certified adult's name, but that was before they came out with the junior L-1 stuff, so maybe the rules have changed...

SkidmarkMonster

Active Member
Ahhhhhh, I've seen some pretty nice rockets fly in the past where the bulk of the building was performed by a young person. They were "flown" by an individual who had the appropriate level for the motor and could handle stuff like the BP and alike.
I don't understand what Skidmark meant by "no redundancy" with the JLCR. With a single electronic DD without using a motor ejection backup, there isn't any redundancy there either.
I don't think there's anything wrong with a young person who wants to launch high. They want to launch high within the limits of what they can construct. Nothing wrong with that. They need to be concerned with tracking though whatever it might be
as a project like that can do a disappearing act and never be seen from again.

Maybe an older veteran can comment but I believe there have been at least a few L2 or even L3 capable projects built by young people that have flown successfully with a rated flier on the launch card. Again, nothing wrong with that. I believe Steve Eves
Saturn V was with another L3 on the team and Steve did an L3 flight some time after the Saturn flew. Correct me if I'm wrong on that point.

I've press fit an EggFinder GPS in the nosecone of a Madcow/RW 38 Special I'm putting up with an H220-14 this weekend and will report back later. I have some comments to make on the EF GPS experiences from MWP14 I had last weekend.
Good news is they find the rockets on the down side after apogee. The bad news is I wasn't able to get as much live data from them as I'd like. I'm going to try a patch antenna and see if that helps. There still are very worth it as I had a prior successful find from a totally unseen ballistic flight. I was able to go to the site and dig a rocket out that otherwise was lost. That's about as extreme as it can get aside from super high G flying. More later. Kurt Savegnago
With the JLCR, you still need some sort of ejection, and since I'm planning on it being a MD, Motor eject won't work well because of the long coasting time. That means that I would still need a standard DD altimeter on board. Forgive about the redundancy part. I realized that it doesn't relate.:blush: I was planning on using two small altimeters for recovery (i.e. StratologgerCF) for redundancy.

SkidmarkMonster

Active Member
Hmm, I use simple radio trackers (Marshall style) and have tracked 54mm MD rockets that went over 23,500' and landed over 4 miles away. (BALLS flights.) In my experience watching others with GPS trackers I much prefer the simplicity of radio beacon style trackers. And while possible, fitting a GPS in a 38mm rocket is a challenge.

I flew a 38mm MD rocket on a Loki K627 to 15K' and a much smaller 38mm MD on a CTI I55 to over 7,000' and and got them back using my Marshall trackers.

What GPS tracker have you used that will work well for a 38mm rocket?

Tony
I was planning on using a Merlin System Tracker because of the small size. However I wanted some input on this. Do you know if Merlin is a reputable brand?

manixFan

Not a rocket scientist
Take your entire college fund and spend it on this: http://www.multitronix.com/

Just kidding.
From their website:

"Mounts in a standard 54mm tube inside a nosecone and is held in place using 54mm liner tubes above and below it."

Kidding aside, wouldn't work in a 38mm MD anyway.

I don't recall ever hearing anything bad about the Merlin system. Very similar to several other falconry trackers on the market. It's unfortunate the all the receivers (from the various makers) are so expensive but they are a one time cost and hold their value. Many of the trackers use the same frequencies and are compatible with the various receivers. We have several trackers spaced across the frequency range so that several rockets can be prepped at once.

The key to radio beacon tracking is practice and good technique. I started out by having my son hide it in a large park and then trying to find it. I also flew it in a few mid-power rockets that I could follow in flight to see how the tracker responded during flight. The biggest issue is making sure you have a good heading on the rocket under chute as once it hits the ground with nearly all tracking systems you will lose the signal. Many times you have to get within a 1/2 mile or so (depending on terrain of course) before you get the signal back once the tracker is on the ground.

Good luck,

Tony

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KenRico

'Just the Tip'
This wont help dual deploy, but com-spec is still doing trackers and chances are someone you know or fly with has a receiver

http://www.com-spec.com

Kenny

Kenny

SkidmarkMonster

Active Member
Is it also true that Transmitters don't do well in CF tubes? I've heard rumors that you need to attach the transmitter to the recovery harness if you use CF tubing so you will receive a signal at deployment.

ksaves2

Or if one wants to do RDF only, ditch the unlicensed stuff, study for the Ham Radio Technician license, pay the $15.00 and pass the test, buy a used Handi-Talkie on 2meters/70cm band that has a "true" signal strength meter, either build a Yagi or buy an Arrow antenna and get an electronic attenuator: http://www.west.net/~marvin/k0ov.htm Can get a 70cm Beeline RDF tracker or if 2 meters is desired: http://www.west.net/~marvin/microhnt.htm Yeah it it seems like a lot of steps but you'll be able to learn a lot from the Ham brethren about different types of tracking and can go on to APRS/GPS tracking if desired later. The cost of the above can be less than a commercial setup. Kurt manixFan Not a rocket scientist Is it also true that Transmitters don't do well in CF tubes? I've heard rumors that you need to attach the transmitter to the recovery harness if you use CF tubing so you will receive a signal at deployment. Carbon Fiber is somewhat radio opaque to completely opaque. Depends on a variety of factors. I was able to get a reasonable signal from my Comm-Spec transmitter through my 54mm MD CF body tube (Rocketry Warehouse CF Mongoose) that was used as a backup to my Big Red Bee in the nosecone, which was a good thing since it failed to lockup once the rocket took off. The signal was weak through the body tube but allowed me to follow it until apogee when it ejected and the signal was much stronger. But for my 38mm CF MD rocket I put my Marshall tracker (it has a shorter antenna) in the nosecone which is standard spiral wound fiberglass and tracked it to 15,000' no problem. Both transmitters were tracked with a 10+ year old Rocket Hunter (really Comm-Spec) receiver. I'm not a fan of the complexity of GPS trackers even though I have one. The radio beacons are about as simple as it gets and the cost and size of the transmitters allow them to be used in a far wider range of situations than most GPS units. You can't just clip most GPS trackers to the recovery harness like you can a radio beacon. Tony ksaves2 Lifetime Supporter TRF Lifetime Supporter Carbon Fiber is somewhat radio opaque to completely opaque. Depends on a variety of factors. I was able to get a reasonable signal from my Comm-Spec transmitter through my 54mm MD CF body tube (Rocketry Warehouse CF Mongoose) that was used as a backup to my Big Red Bee in the nosecone, which was a good thing since it failed to lockup once the rocket took off. The signal was weak through the body tube but allowed me to follow it until apogee when it ejected and the signal was much stronger. But for my 38mm CF MD rocket I put my Marshall tracker (it has a shorter antenna) in the nosecone which is standard spiral wound fiberglass and tracked it to 15,000' no problem. Both transmitters were tracked with a 10+ year old Rocket Hunter (really Comm-Spec) receiver. I'm not a fan of the complexity of GPS trackers even though I have one. The radio beacons are about as simple as it gets and the cost and size of the transmitters allow them to be used in a far wider range of situations than most GPS units. You can't just clip most GPS trackers to the recovery harness like you can a radio beacon. Tony One comment though is RDF won't help you in the extreme of a sight unseen ballistic flight. Yeah, I know you're not going to have one but I didn't think I would either. Two positions got out and I found the rocket. RDF will not help you with that, one iota. Again, I say completely sight unseen. You see your rocket coming in ballistic, you stand a much better chance of finding it. After it hits, the electronics generally die and that's it. Unless you can lock an accurate bearing on the death dive you'll be less likely to find the crash site. For nominal flights, RDF is still very good especially for projects that can't fit a GPS tracker. Kurt manixFan Not a rocket scientist (Edited for brevity) One comment though is RDF won't help you in the extreme of a sight unseen ballistic flight... I personally know of several flights that had GPS trackers that either went way off course or came in ballistic and were never found. So I could argue that GPS is no guarantee either. And I'd much rather lose a$125 transmitter than a GPS unit costing 2X or more as much.

Nothing wrong with GPS but in my personal experience and many observations it's as fallible as any other tracking method. At BALLS this year my BRB GPS unit failed on 2 flights so if I had relied solely on it for tracking I would have been out of luck. But I had backup beacons in each flight and was able to recover the rockets.

Tony

Maxitout

Well-Known Member
You know, when I was still in Civil Air Patrol, I would guide our cadets through the CAP rocketry program, and then we would build a large project, usually "M" powered. It was always a kick to have 4 cadets carrying a 10 foot long, 6" diameter rocket up to the RSO table, and tell them this Level 3 project was built by a bunch of 12-16 year olds.

Phil L.