Junior Cert: Help me choose!

[Stizzealth]

Hey all:

It's been a while since I've dabbled in rocketry (fell in love with old cars), but I'm turning 14 soon and I've always wanted to cert Junior L1. I have been into rockets since I was about 11 and so I have a good deal of building experience. There's a CMASS launch on April 19, 7 days after my birthday, and I'd like to certify there.

So here is my problem. Originally, I had planned to scratch a Thrustline Sea Dart upscale. I love that rocket's looks, and it's always flown well for me (so well that I've lost a couple to C6-5s!). However, with Thrustline not currently producing rockets and my last kit built (and zippered- to make a long story short I had to yank it out of a tree) I'm going to have to choose something else.

So now I am confronted with kits. I actually have a rocket capable of certifying Level 1- a PML Io. However, I'd like to go for something a little more low and slow. My Onyx is unfortunately not designed for the power of an H. I have flown neither the Onyx nor the Io before- I've had bad luck with RMS and have had best results on my test stand, not in my rockets.

I'd like something with some challenge to it (No saucers. Cool, but too easy) that has low and slow potential. I'll probably be flying it on an H128. Preferably it would be capable of taking larger mid-power motors. I've been looking at LOC rockets (I don't really like PML's fiberglass fins), particularly the Forte and Minie Magg. I like my rockets kinda plain (I don't need cluster tubes, BT transitions, tailcones). I also looked at the PML MR-1 and kinda liked the nosecone as well as the versatility of engine choice.

Anybody got guesses? I'll throw out a budget of $120 for the rocket alone, though I prefer to keep it closer to $90. I have a 29/40-120 casing for mid-power flying but I plan to go with an SU for the cert.

Also, the nuances- How do I deal with getting a cert team and all that?

Thanks!

-Stizz

 

[Hospital_Rocket]

Take advantage of a local guy and try one of the kits by Cosmodrome. The Nike Smoke or the BB2 would both be good choices for Jr L1 and be immensely flyable on smaller motors should you get the urge.

 

[Green Arrow]

My son did his TRA JR cert on a F motor with a Aerotech Mustang.

I had a PML IO till it was lost in a Dual Cato Drag race at the Narcon 2007 Sport Launch. Both of us lost our IO's to G80 cato's!!:surprised::cry:

Loc Precison has the Lil' Diter?

Just a thought.

 

[DAllen]

There's so much here. First, if you want to save some money, scratch build. You've built an IO and an Onyx so you have the skills to go scratch. If you don't feel comfortable with that I recommend the BSD Horizon or the 3" Thor. If you like the PML variety there is the Small Endeavor. I don't think a challenging kit is the way to go with a Jr. L1 or any cert for that matter. Use the KISS principle. You'll also find that the more complicated/challenging kit the more expensive. I don't care for the Mini Magg. I've seen so many flights of those things and they are kind of unpredictable.

Going with an SU motor for the cert? Where are you going to get those? The only SU H motors that I am aware of are the Ellis Mountain and with the passing of Mr. Ellis I doubt they will be around for much longer. Which really is tragic. I would love it if someone else would start making SU H motors but I don't know of any.

As far as the cert team goes I know nothing about it.

-DAllen

 

[Gym_Class_Hero]

I, personally will be doing mine on a FG Performance Rocketry Competiror 3 (It flies on a wide range of motors: I-L), but it does cost a bit.
Or you could get a larger Aerotech kit and mod it for high power 29mm's (just a matter of snipping the motor clip).

 

[DAllen]

My son did his TRA JR cert on a F motor with a Aerotech Mustang.

I had a PML IO till it was lost in a Dual Cato Drag race at the Narcon 2007 Sport Launch. Both of us lost our IO's to G80 cato's!!:surprised::cry:

Loc Precison has the Lil' Diter?

Just a thought.

You can Jr cert on an F? I thought it had to be an H:

https://www.nar.org/pdf/JRHPR.pdf

-DAllen

 

[Gym_Class_Hero]

You can Jr cert on an F? I thought it had to be an H:

https://www.nar.org/pdf/JRHPR.pdf

-DAllen

He said it was a TRA jr. cert. They may allow it I guess.

I didn't even know Tripoli even had a jr. cert option. I thought it was only the NAR.

 

[BayouRat]

The LOC Graduator would be perfect for you. I would beef up the shock cord and mount. Add a payload bay. Add T-nuts in the aft centering ring for motor retention. Use a larger 28" or 30" inch chute. This would be exactly what you need for a Jr. Cert. on an H128W. Medium delay should be fine.

I hope this helps.

 

[Stizzealth]

*snip*

Going with an SU motor for the cert? Where are you going to get those? The only SU H motors that I am aware of are the Ellis Mountain and with the passing of Mr. Ellis I doubt they will be around for much longer. Which really is tragic. I would love it if someone else would start making SU H motors but I don't know of any.

As far as the cert team goes I know nothing about it.

-DAllen

Dang- that's right. I think I might have to cough up for a 29/180. Too bad the I65PW is capped.

 

[sailmike]

My suggestion is the Polecat Aerospace 4" Goblin. I have their 5.5" Fat Man and this kit is extremely well made and very easy to put together. All the parts were perfectly cut and the fins are plywood. I cert'd level 2 on a J350 with this kit. The Goblin is $90 and the 5.5" Fat Man is $100. Level 1 and 2 are possible with both kits. Both are low and slow.

Here's a link:
https://www.whatsuphobbies.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=WUH

Mike

 

[dixontj93060]

So many choices out there. My son did his Jr L1 on a Binder Aspire, but it certainly wouldn't be a low/slow choice (see pic). I know you said you didn't like PML, but Al's Hobby Shop has a nice a 3" dia. Intruder on clearance that would work well. If you do have experience building HPR rockets then you might go with a Public Enemy kit like the 4" Psycho which give's you a decent price/value.

Regarding the cert and cert team itself, there should be no problem at almost any HPR launch there will be a wide choice of L1 through L3 flyers that are willing to pitch in and help you with your flight(s). My son was helped by Texas flyer Tim Sapp an L3CC at LDRS in 2006.

View attachment MicahL1.JPG

 

[hartlch]

Another good low and slow option is the BSD 4" Diablo. And the price is well within your range so you will be able to pick up a case too and stay within your budget.

 

[Green Arrow]

My son is was 11 and TRA has a JR cert under 18 for F and G motors. If I remember right he has to be 18 to H and up.

This summer he will fly his Aerotech Mustang on a G motor. I would like to get him into packing his own motor. I bought a 29/40-120 casing this fall.

Hopefully this summer I will have my PML Endeavor built and fly it for my L2 on a J350W.

 

[Green Arrow]

How about a Binder Excel JR or Stealth JR rocket?

Rockets on my build wish list are the Binder Design Raptor and the Public Enemy SS Arrow.

 

[BayouRat]

Dang- that's right. I think I might have to cough up for a 29/180. Too bad the I65PW is capped.

If you want something easy to use try a Pro38 They have 2 grain H153. You just screw the reload into the case and it's ready to go. As close to single use as one can get.
:surprised:

 

[GaryT]

Stizz:
My 2 Cents? Go with the LOC HI-TECH H45, Not too small Not too Big, LOC makes a Great Kit and The HT is a Very versatile kit at That, With Its 38mm MM it will accept anything from an F to an I plus you can convert it to Duel Deploy down the road if you like as I did. The HT is also a Great! Flier strait and true. Mine is DD glassed and I added an Aeropack motor retainer, I plan to push its Limits
The Pic below is mine on a G75J The field only allowed G's

 

[Stizzealth]

Alright, I'm gonna start a list of suggestions people have given me with pros and cons:

Cosmodrome:

Black Brant II PROS: TTW Plywood fins for easy alignnment, positive motor retention, includes parachute

Black Brant II CONS: FAST on only H option, added complexity of boattail, not terribly interesting to look at

__________________________________________________________________

Nike Smoke PROS: Really cool looking, motor retention, TTW fins, looks like a simply build

Nike Smoke CONS: High and fast on the one H option, easy to lose


LOC Precision

Lil 'Diter PROS: Has some size and weight, I like LOC kits, nice small chute

Lil 'Diter CONS: Tube transitions, not much to look at (at least in suggested paint scheme!), pretty darn high on an H

Graduator PROS: Attractive design, motor versatility

Graduator CONS: Small, high, fast, 29mm only

Hi-Tech PROS: Motor versatility, nice looks

Hi-Tech CONS: High and fast?

BSD Rocketry

Thor PROS: Lower on an H, nice looks, motor retention, TTW?

Thor CONS: Perhaps pricey, only 1 H option

Horizon PROS: GREAT engine versatility, nice looks, easy build

Horizon CONS: Elastic shock cord (?!?!?!), would like an F engine option

4" Diablo PROS: Low and slow, nylon shock cord, nice looks

4" Diablo CONS: None.

PML

Small Endeavour PROS: Attractive, heavy

Small Endeavour CONS: Part of the VHA series, I don't like quantum tubes and G10 fins

Intruder PROS: Heavy and long, H and I possibility

Intruder CONS: As above

Polecat Aerospace

Goblin PROS: Huge engine versatility, large diameter

Goblins CONS: Kinda small, pricy

Fat Man PROS: Low and Slow!

Fat Man CONS: Not much mid-power engine choice

Binder Design

Phew, I'm tired! All of the Binder rocket suggested look pretty good.




Maybe I'm just prejudiced against PML because it was my first experience with epoxy, albeit cheap hardware store tube epoxy. I still can't lay down perfect fillets, not have I sanded that masking tape that I used for fillets off because it epoxied itself down.

 

[ghost]

I vote for scratch built! Just buy some 4" tubing and a NC. cut your own fins and centering rings, and you are done. I built my 4" diam 60" tall rocket DD capable with a 38mm MMT and a large electronics bay for about $70. (yay scratch building )

Or if you must use a kit, I vote for Polecat

 

[jj94]

Alright, I'm gonna start a list of suggestions people have given me with pros and cons:

Cosmodrome:

Black Brant II PROS: TTW Plywood fins for easy alignnment, positive motor retention, includes parachute

Black Brant II CONS: FAST on only H option, added complexity of boattail, not terribly interesting to look at

__________________________________________________________________

Nike Smoke PROS: Really cool looking, motor retention, TTW fins, looks like a simply build

Nike Smoke CONS: High and fast on the one H option, easy to lose


LOC Precision

Lil 'Diter PROS: Has some size and weight, I like LOC kits, nice small chute

Lil 'Diter CONS: Tube transitions, not much to look at (at least in suggested paint scheme!), pretty darn high on an H

Graduator PROS: Attractive design, motor versatility

Graduator CONS: Small, high, fast, 29mm only

Hi-Tech PROS: Motor versatility, nice looks

Hi-Tech CONS: High and fast?

BSD Rocketry

Thor PROS: Lower on an H, nice looks, motor retention, TTW?

Thor CONS: Perhaps pricey, only 1 H option

Horizon PROS: GREAT engine versatility, nice looks, easy build

Horizon CONS: Elastic shock cord (?!?!?!), would like an F engine option

4" Diablo PROS: Low and slow, nylon shock cord, nice looks

4" Diablo CONS: None.

PML

Small Endeavour PROS: Attractive, heavy

Small Endeavour CONS: Part of the VHA series, I don't like quantum tubes and G10 fins

Intruder PROS: Heavy and long, H and I possibility

Intruder CONS: As above

Polecat Aerospace

Goblin PROS: Huge engine versatility, large diameter

Goblins CONS: Kinda small, pricy

Fat Man PROS: Low and Slow!

Fat Man CONS: Not much mid-power engine choice

Binder Design

Phew, I'm tired! All of the Binder rocket suggested look pretty good.




Maybe I'm just prejudiced against PML because it was my first experience with epoxy, albeit cheap hardware store tube epoxy. I still can't lay down perfect fillets, not have I sanded that masking tape that I used for fillets off because it epoxied itself down.

You don't have to use the recommended motors. I've run many sims of some of the rockets you've listed above and they did fine on many motors according to Rocksim.

 

[cac_asi]

Look at the Madcow kits.
--laser cut parts
--quality chutes sized right
--TTW fins that meet the motor tube

The Discovery is similar to the Graduator, but you don't have to replace or fix anything. My Graduator fins came up short of the motor mount by about 1/8".

I just finished, but have not flown a 4" Cowabunga. It is a bit taller than the Onyx, but I am sure it won't have trouble handling an H and it should not get out of sight.

 

[bobkrech]

Stizz

Amesbury is fairly windy in April so don't be disappointed if it's too windy for an Jr. L1 flight because you are not allowed to use electronic deployment.

A 3" rocket will go too high (2000'-2500') with apogee only deployment to permit an in-field recovery if the wind is any higher than ~7 mph. A 4" rocket with a max altitude of 1500' with apogee only deployment is strongly suggested for L1 certs.

A LOC EZI-65 is a good LOC kits of a Jr. L1 flight. So are the LOC Fantom, the BD Excel and the BSD Horizon 4 which are equivalent kits. All should be build stock if you want to fly them on midpower motors.

Bob Krech
CMASS Senior Advisor

 

[dixontj93060]

Stizz

Amesbury is fairly windy in April so don't be disappointed if it's too windy for an Jr. L1 flight because you are not allowed to use electronic deployment.

A 3" rocket will go too high (2000'-2500') with apogee only deployment to permit an in-field recovery if the wind is any higher than ~7 mph. A 4" rocket with a max altitude of 1500' with apogee only deployment is strongly suggested for L1 certs.

A LOC EZI-65 is a good LOC kits of a Jr. L1 flight. So are the LOC Fantom, the BD Excel and the BSD Horizon 4 which are equivalent kits. All should be build stock if you want to fly them on midpower motors.

Bob Krech
CMASS Senior Advisor

WHAT!!!??!!! 2500 feet a 3" rocket on an H128?

PML estimates the Intruder (3" and built to stock) at only ~1200 ft. on an H128. If he flies a stock EZI-65 built stock he's only going to get to ~900 feet on an H-128.

 

[BayouRat]

WHAT!!!??!!! 2500 feet a 3" rocket on an H128?

PML estimates the Intruder (3" and built to stock) at only ~1200 ft. on an H128. If he flies a stock EZI-65 built stock he's only going to get to ~900 feet on an H-128.

Yeah! my LOC Graduator only hit 1,200' on my L1 flight with an H128. Although it was an old motor and chuffed it's way up there. :lol: Of course I built that rocket heavy too. Since it was my L1 rocket I did skimp on anything. Including epoxy.

 

[loopy]

If you rough up the quantum tubing and fins really well, there's no problems with them, even with the cheaper epoxies. I got my L1 on a Small Endeavour with an H165, and it currently has about 4 or 5 HPR flights on it, plus a whole bunch of G flights as well. No problems whatsoever. My cert flight was approx. 1800 feet or so, and landed about 100 yards away. I love this rocket!

Another good one for G/H flights is the LOC Norad Pro Maxx. About the same flight profile as the Small Endeavour with a little different styling. As was pointed out by a co-worker, the bottom looks like a Nike booster. I've flown this one on everything from G64 - H180, and it begs for more. The H180 flight was awesome - really smoked off the pad in a hurry!

 

[bobkrech]

Yeah! my LOC Graduator only hit 1,200' on my L1 flight with an H128. Although it was an old motor and chuffed it's way up there. :lol: Of course I built that rocket heavy too. Since it was my L1 rocket I did skimp on anything. Including epoxy.

Whitney

I read your earlier post and simmed the rockets for a Pro38 H153 instead of the H128. You get 2/3s of the H153 altitude with the H128, or about 1300'-1700' with a 3" airframe on a H128 depending on weight and Cd, and between 900' and 1200' on a typical 4" airframe rocket on a H128.

My comments still stand however for our field. A Jr. L1 can not use electronic deployment so his rocket should stay below 1500' for an infield/non-forest recovery. In April at our field the winds are typically from the WSW to SW at ~15 mph which would put him in the trees. I learned the hard way when I got back into rocketry 8 years ago in April at this field. Only my first flight, the payload section of my AT Mirage drifted over 3000' on a G80, and my VB Raven found the top of a tree 1600' from the launch pad again on a G80. I hate to see a young guy loose his cert rocket.

Bob

 

[Stizzealth]

Whitney

I read your earlier post and simmed the rockets for a Pro38 H153 instead of the H128. You get 2/3s of the H153 altitude with the H128, or about 1300'-1700' with a 3" airframe on a H128 depending on weight and Cd, and between 900' and 1200' on a typical 4" airframe rocket on a H128.

My comments still stand however for our field. A Jr. L1 can not use electronic deployment so his rocket should stay below 1500' for an infield/non-forest recovery. In April at our field the winds are typically from the WSW to SW at ~15 mph which would put him in the trees. I learned the hard way when I got back into rocketry 8 years ago in April at this field. Only my first flight, the payload section of my AT Mirage drifted over 3000' on a G80, and my VB Raven found the top of a tree 1600' from the launch pad again on a G80. I hate to see a young guy loose his cert rocket.

Bob

Yeah, I'd hate to see me lose my cert rocket and expensive casing too. x.x Low and slow it is then. I'm kind of leaning towards the 5.5" Fat Man, which is most CERTAINLY low and slow. Another option is the Stealth, which is a little more streamlined.

 

[sailmike]

Andy mentioned that he sells a 12" section for the 5.5" Fat Man for DD. It's not listed on his site, so you have to ask him for it. I am planning to add that to mine. He said he flew the Fat Man stock on a K1275 to about 12,000'!

Mike

 

[llickteig1]

Don't forget about one of your original options - a LOC Minnie Magg. That is one really fun rocket.

I slam H's and I's in mine all the time and it just doesn't go very high. I would do some fiberglass fillets or even tip-to-tip 'glassing with some light fiberglass to help keep the fins on. I've done all my fins one at a time after hard landings cracked the fllets. If you don't go overboard on your build, you can even fly it on a G80.

Good luck with your cert!

--Lance.

Here's mine:

View attachment minniemagg.JPG

 

[Landshark45]

Why not try a BSD sprint. I got one for christmas and I love it. It will take any f-I.I just turned fourteen and I am planning my junior cert on an H180. Also this is a 55 dollar rocket, extreemly easy to build and fly,it also has motor retention. The sims say 2700 on an h180 but through an ellis h50 and c yea 3500 feet.

 

[jj94]

Why not try a BSD sprint. I got one for christmas and I love it. It will take any f-I.I just turned fourteen and I am planning my junior cert on an H180. Also this is a 55 dollar rocket, extreemly easy to build and fly,it also has motor retention. The sims say 2700 on an h180 but through an ellis h50 and c yea 3500 feet.

I'd think 2700 feet is too high for a cert. Stizz said that he'd want low and slow. A Sprint will RIP off the pad.