This one should be "put to the test", too.
(1) Turn off the features mentioned above.
(2) Turn off the phone.
(3) Transfer it to a distant location.
(4) See if you can "find" it.
Dave F.
It is always listening.
- Thread starter MClark
- Start date
Help Support The Rocketry Forum:
This one should be "put to the test", too.
(1) Turn off the features mentioned above.
(2) Turn off the phone.
(3) Transfer it to a distant location.
(4) See if you can "find" it.
Dave F.
I've done this; with the features off it doesn't know where the phone is.
Can those features remain "off" and the phone be un-trackable, even when the phone is turned on and in the presence of other "Apple devices" ?
If not, might as well leave it at home, unless there is a "pressing need" ( other than one being "addicted to technology" ) to have it with you.
Simply check one's texts and voicemail later. The "hook" of instant access and instant contact "seduces" people to carry them everywhere they go . . . Exactly as it was intended to do !
Dave F.
Last edited:
I physically removed the camera module, itself, from my laptop and flat-screen monitors. They function fine, although I believe that, enetually, those units will be deigned not to function, unless the camera module is present and functioning,
Have someone call the phone . . . Answer it . . . Place it inside the oven . . . Shut the door . . . Start talking and see what the other person can hear.
I just did this, having my wife call it on BOTH a cordless landline AND her Smart Phone ( My phone is a cheap SONIM "flip phone" with Talk & Text only, no internet . . . Her phone is an LG Phoenix IV ).
(1) The phone rang immediately, BOTH times.
(2) After answering it, placing it back into the microwave ( a 2006 model Whirlpool ), and latching the door, she could hear me, PERFECTLY, at distances of 3-12 ft away from the oven ( I ran out of kitchen - LOL ! ), speaking in a "normal tone of voice". She was all the way across the house, in our master bedroom bathroom, with 3 closed doors, in between.
My conclusion . . . Leave the phone at home, unless you really need it !
I just did this, having my wife call it on BOTH a cordless landline AND her Smart Phone ( My phone is a cheap SONIM "flip phone" with Talk & Text only, no internet . . . Her phone is an LG Phoenix IV ).
(1) The phone rang immediately, BOTH times.
(2) After answering it, placing it back into the microwave ( a 2006 model Whirlpool ), and latching the door, she could hear me, PERFECTLY, at distances of 3-12 ft away from the oven ( I ran out of kitchen - LOL ! ), speaking in a "normal tone of voice". She was all the way across the house, in our master bedroom bathroom, with 3 closed doors, in between.
My conclusion . . . Leave the phone at home, unless you really need it !
@Ez2cDave much of my main reason for having a phone is so that I have it with me when I'm not at home. Leaving it at home would make it not worth having a phone. 
Also to everyone, there is a common misconception that microwave ovens are Faraday cages. Nope. They do a great job of keeping directional microwaves IN but they aren't designed to keep signals out.
Reading through a lot of this, and focusing for now on the location tracking aspect, I wonder if people have an issue with the tracking of location itself, or the lack of transparency around how the data is stored and used.
Imagine, if you will a world in which:
So, in this near-neighbor alternate reality, would these disturbing differences have changed the uptake of cell phones in either global or just US society? This writer suggests not.
While nobody likes the idea of being tracked, most people, and I'm talking 99+%, don't bother to do anything about it. We are tracked by default, and it rarely creates a problem. Routine tracking lets us get better navigation while driving because Google knows how fast the cars are moving, even when the mapping app isn't actively being used by most cars. This is just one example.
Do I personally like being tracked? No. Do I really care? No. I'm sophisticated enough that I could configure my phones not to do it, or to frequently dump the data, but I really don't care that much to bother, and I enjoy a lot of benefits from being tracked personally and in aggregate with the rest of society.
I'm not worried that someone will use my precise location to call in an airstrike, or that my wife is going to bust me for going to a strip club. (disclosure: I don't go to strip clubs)
For me, and for almost everyone, the benefits of the technology outweigh the drawbacks. YEs, there are plenty of counter-examples. Stalkers. Abusive partners/spouses. And so on. So, a few people may want to go silent running. And that's why in our reality the tracking can be turned off. It's good to have options, even if most of us never use them.
Also to everyone, there is a common misconception that microwave ovens are Faraday cages. Nope. They do a great job of keeping directional microwaves IN but they aren't designed to keep signals out.
Reading through a lot of this, and focusing for now on the location tracking aspect, I wonder if people have an issue with the tracking of location itself, or the lack of transparency around how the data is stored and used.
Imagine, if you will a world in which:
- In 2007 and 2008, when the first iPhone and Android respectively were released, their manufacturers said right upfront:
- These phones come with GPS modules and can be tracked to within about 10 feet, a significant improvement over tower-triangulation location methods that previous phones used
- This functionality is critical for key applications such as navigation, geocaching, and returning relevant search results so that your "Home Depot inventory" search returns useful information
- There is NO OFF switch for the GPS function, just as there is no off switch for the compass or pedometer.
- GPS data WILL BE collected by the OS and maintained by Apple/Google for 30 days.
- The location data WILL BE used to improve relevance of search results and ad delivery; your location history is a commodity that the manufacturer can sell.
- The location data WILL BE given to law enforcement when a legal warrant is provided
So, in this near-neighbor alternate reality, would these disturbing differences have changed the uptake of cell phones in either global or just US society? This writer suggests not.
While nobody likes the idea of being tracked, most people, and I'm talking 99+%, don't bother to do anything about it. We are tracked by default, and it rarely creates a problem. Routine tracking lets us get better navigation while driving because Google knows how fast the cars are moving, even when the mapping app isn't actively being used by most cars. This is just one example.
Do I personally like being tracked? No. Do I really care? No. I'm sophisticated enough that I could configure my phones not to do it, or to frequently dump the data, but I really don't care that much to bother, and I enjoy a lot of benefits from being tracked personally and in aggregate with the rest of society.
I'm not worried that someone will use my precise location to call in an airstrike, or that my wife is going to bust me for going to a strip club. (disclosure: I don't go to strip clubs)
For me, and for almost everyone, the benefits of the technology outweigh the drawbacks. YEs, there are plenty of counter-examples. Stalkers. Abusive partners/spouses. And so on. So, a few people may want to go silent running. And that's why in our reality the tracking can be turned off. It's good to have options, even if most of us never use them.
Last edited:
H_Rocket
Death by Powerpoint
It is amazing to me that folks will buy something like an iPhone/Android Phone and then get upset because it actually uses the features designed into it.
My family (wife and two kids) share locations with each other. Just today, my younger son used it so he could see when his mom made it to school to pick him up after an activity (he paid attention to her location as she approached to meet up) and I used my other son 's location to help time dinner (he was returning home from college a little ways away).
I use it to lower my anxiety about my wife's safe arrival at places (she has some health issues), and they can all see me in reciprocity. It's a useful feature.
If it means I get served ads for Jimmy Johns when I am near the sub shop, it's fine by me.
I use it to lower my anxiety about my wife's safe arrival at places (she has some health issues), and they can all see me in reciprocity. It's a useful feature.
If it means I get served ads for Jimmy Johns when I am near the sub shop, it's fine by me.
dr wogz
Fly caster
My (and I thin kothers) main complaint about some of the tracking, is the 'targeted ads'.. Yes, I'm driving down teh road. yes, there is a Tims / Starbucks / McDo's etc.. coming up.. No, I don't care for a coupon.. and frankly if you are that smart, you'd realise I never go into any of those places!!
Trying soo hard to advertise for something I have never held an interest in.. Not based on interest, but eh all mightly $$$
(if it was a free lap dance offer.. I might!! )
Trying soo hard to advertise for something I have never held an interest in.. Not based on interest, but eh all mightly $$$
(if it was a free lap dance offer.. I might!!
)I'm thrilled that people want to track me and waste their resources doing it to get nothing in return.
Monday I was in my home office at my desk, working. And the same Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, and I'll probably be doing that tomorrow too. Tuesday I left the house and went to my actual office to sit at my desk there and work. Sunday if it's not raining I'll go to the park and launch rockets! And then Monday I'll be back at my desk working. So is that real valuable information? Retirement is so much fun.
When I actually get to leave the house and go somewhere such as heading to the desert for camping, I carry a Garmin satellite gizmo that sends my location to their website every 30 minutes so my wife can look on the map and see where I am. Now that's being tracked.
MClark
Well-Known Member
At Disney World you can get a "Magic Band" for the wrist. It will open hotel room door, park entrance, can be liked to a money source and pay for everything. Sometimes riding on Small World (if it’s workin) there is a video panel saying "Good Bye Mark Clark."
Some people worry they are tracking their movements in park, I really don’t care. I did see security with a kid who had lost family, they scanned the band, a couple seconds later the voice on radio said Mother is at xxx, Father at yyyy
Some people worry they are tracking their movements in park, I really don’t care. I did see security with a kid who had lost family, they scanned the band, a couple seconds later the voice on radio said Mother is at xxx, Father at yyyy
And then, there is the "loyalty card" issue. So if you have a member card for CVS, Walgreens, the grocery store for a discount. They know what you buy and very actively mine the data to help drive not only targeted ads to us, but also to figure out where to place items in the store. Sometimes they do it to put up unrelated , but often bought together items in close proximity. So you see an item you are planning to buy, and grab something you often buy but might not have thought of today, off the adjacent shelf. Why the hell is a display of goldfish crackers next to the whipped cream in the dairy aisle? That's why. Or sometimes they use it to make you trek through the store, passing impulse purchase opportunities along the way.
It's a big science, about big data. And it's not sinister.
It's a big science, about big data. And it's not sinister.
Just like putting the milk in the back corner of the grocery.
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2009
- Messages
- 2,459
- Reaction score
- 1,970
To me, targeted ads (or youtube targeted videos etc.) are somewhat compromised in the big picture. If I search for a torque wrench online, I find the kind I want and a place to buy it and I buy it. I knew I wanted a torque wrench and I only want one, so ads don't really get involved. 2 weeks after I bought the torque wrench all ad space dedicated to trying to get me to buy a torque wrench is simply wasted. Also, if you really want me to buy something I don't want, show me ads for something I didn't search for. There are plenty of things that exist in the world that I don't know about, but if I saw an ad for something, I might be interested.
By over-tailoring our online experiences, we get shut out of things we didn't know existed.
Sandy.
By over-tailoring our online experiences, we get shut out of things we didn't know existed.
Sandy.
dr wogz
Fly caster
The whole "ad" is getting wasted as well. They are becoming cheap, and just overall annoying. We all know we must accept them, but there is a point (and I feel we are getting to / are at that point) were we are just overwhelmed with them. They no longer have any impact (apart from just being plain annoying) and are no longer indistinguishable from each other.. I't sjsut an endless stream of words & pictures. I seriously doubt any of us could identify 2 or more ads from an ad run on TV.. Maybe there is a reason why Netflix & Disney+ are popular.. and why we are willing to spend $15 a month..
My (and I thin kothers) main complaint about some of the tracking, is the 'targeted ads'.. Yes, I'm driving down teh road. yes, there is a Tims / Starbucks / McDo's etc.. coming up.. No, I don't care for a coupon.. and frankly if you are that smart, you'd realise I never go into any of those places!!
Trying soo hard to advertise for something I have never held an interest in.. Not based on interest, but eh all mightly $$$
(if it was a free lap dance offer.. I might!!
The "800-lb Gorilla" in the room is the auditory and positional surveillance capabilities, not digital coupons and "spam" advertising.
The "Alphabet Agencies" who monitor, record, and archive that data are the real problem that no one is talking about.
Hypothetically, if someone were saying "naughty things" about the government, in general, or singling out a specific government official, and opining about how much they would enjoy the demise of that individual, or the total destruction of the "political infrastructure" of that particular political party, you can guarantee that they would be placed on several "watch lists". If they began to communicate with and/or associate with like-minded individuals, the level of surveillance would be "enhanced" and, most likely, an investigation file would be opened on them and their associates. Depending on the data collected, it might increase from there, or not. Mind you, none of those people did anything illegal, nor did they express any intention of actually carrying out any of the things they were talking about.
The problem stems from the "government" not "seeing a crime and then investigating it" but, rather, "surveilling everyone, looking for a crime" !
Dave F.
That depends on what you are buying, Marc G. . . . And what they think you might be able to do with it.
Hypothetical . . . You buy Vitamin C, in a fairly large quantity . . . The "government" knows you are an NAR member and HPR certified . . . They take a look at your Internet history and email/text messages and contact lists . . . One, or more, of your associates, unknown to you, has been looking online for alternatives to BP for ejection charges . . . One of the things he has searched for, read several times, and downloaded the PDF file on how to make is "Crimson Powder" . . . Coincidentally, "Crimson Powder", an unregulated "DIY" explosive is made from Ascorbic Acid ( "Vitamin C"), plus a few other "household items", easily obtainable at any garden center . . . Etc, etc, etc.
FWIW - "Crimson Powder" is more powerful than BP .
Then you associate, online, or in person, with people who say "naughty things", unbeknownst to you, about the government.
What do you think just happened to you ?
That is the danger of "wholesale surveillance", not about spamming you with ads !
Dave F.
Last edited:
If me buying a bottle of supplements is going to result in me going through extraordinary rendition to some black ops site in Saudi Arabia for "questioning" I think I will be pretty far toward the back of the line.
Even with the GPS turned off, they still know where you are to within a couple meters, by looking at wifi RSSI numbers.
And, Bluetooth can be used in the same way. Many retail locations put BT bugs in kiosks, so they know where you passed through, where you dawdled, etc. Clever!
Very true. No reason to get stressed about them tracking you. Trust me, there is nothing you can do to stop it. You could live in a lead box or cave 30 feet under the ground. You could build a faraday cage. Trust me; it is not worth the effort. Just don't do anything overtly illegal, and you will be fine.
So, I did another test and the definitive answer for my Pixel 6 phone at least is: It's NOT always listening.
My family watched a PBS NOVA episode about Mammoths on Saturday. Not only did I have my phone with me at the time, I purposefully woke it up and interacted with apps and kept it awake for a good part of the show. I never invoked "OK, Google." But the phone was awake and potentially in spy mode much of the show which included a lot of back and forth between my wife, son, and me about Mammoths, fossils, flint knapping, Neanderthals...
Several days later, not a single ad anywhere on my online footprint about any of these topics. If I were to say "OK, Google. Mammoths, fossils, neanderthals, flint knapping" I'm confident I would within minutes start to see ads for things related to these topics (I've done similar tests, and yes, OK Google search terms are fair game for ad usage).
I'm convinced that most of the time when someone thinks their phone is spying on them without their permission that one of the following things is going on:
1. They've configured the phone (perhaps accidentally) to allow it to listen in without requiring a keyword
2. They've installed a malicious app that does listen in inappropriately; as privacy controls have increased on both Apple and Android platforms I think this is harder to do now
3. They've accidentally invoked the voice assistant. For example, I've had the google assistant occasionally pop up when I didn't say OK Google, but did say something with similar sounds and cadence. Remember, the phone may be always listening for the keyword, but this is done natively on the phone without relaying data to a server. It's only when the assistant is invoked that subsequent statements are sent through to the server.
This editorial is just about phones. If someone has another device, such as Alexa or other assistant that is less stringent about keywords, all bets are off. And there have been several cases of manufacturers setting up "always listening" situations in stuff like TVs. Buyer beware.
But no, unless you've got a bad app or configuration going on, your phone is NOT always listening to you. It's just sifting what you say very narrowly to see if it matches a keyword to invoke the assistant.
My family watched a PBS NOVA episode about Mammoths on Saturday. Not only did I have my phone with me at the time, I purposefully woke it up and interacted with apps and kept it awake for a good part of the show. I never invoked "OK, Google." But the phone was awake and potentially in spy mode much of the show which included a lot of back and forth between my wife, son, and me about Mammoths, fossils, flint knapping, Neanderthals...
Several days later, not a single ad anywhere on my online footprint about any of these topics. If I were to say "OK, Google. Mammoths, fossils, neanderthals, flint knapping" I'm confident I would within minutes start to see ads for things related to these topics (I've done similar tests, and yes, OK Google search terms are fair game for ad usage).
I'm convinced that most of the time when someone thinks their phone is spying on them without their permission that one of the following things is going on:
1. They've configured the phone (perhaps accidentally) to allow it to listen in without requiring a keyword
2. They've installed a malicious app that does listen in inappropriately; as privacy controls have increased on both Apple and Android platforms I think this is harder to do now
3. They've accidentally invoked the voice assistant. For example, I've had the google assistant occasionally pop up when I didn't say OK Google, but did say something with similar sounds and cadence. Remember, the phone may be always listening for the keyword, but this is done natively on the phone without relaying data to a server. It's only when the assistant is invoked that subsequent statements are sent through to the server.
This editorial is just about phones. If someone has another device, such as Alexa or other assistant that is less stringent about keywords, all bets are off. And there have been several cases of manufacturers setting up "always listening" situations in stuff like TVs. Buyer beware.
But no, unless you've got a bad app or configuration going on, your phone is NOT always listening to you. It's just sifting what you say very narrowly to see if it matches a keyword to invoke the assistant.
Last edited:
H_Rocket
Death by Powerpoint
I’d be more concerned that people who do high level intelligence gathering and analysis had any desire to bring a Furby to work.
“Yo Furb, does that look like a mobile IRBM launcher to you? “
Wow, sounds like you have experience with that? Please post about it in the "Tell me something amazing" thread.
Ha ha, jk.
More seriously,
That's not the point. It's more like: I have nothing to hide, so why are you spying one?
But, there are many aspects to privacy, it's a subtle issue. We can pursue it if you want.
That's just it... this increasing monitoring of us, often unbeknownst to us, certainly can have a sinister side to it. Ad targeting and marketing is a relatively benign, sometimes silly thing - How many refrigerators do I need, for Pete's sake? What bugs me slightly more is these blasted EULA's, which I know we all read very carefully and consider the ramifications of each turn of a phrase therein... right. Most of us could be signing over our families and our homes and never know it until they come for the goods! I've tried a couple of times, but yow...
A buddy says. "Well, just don't do anything wrong, and you don't have anything to worry about!" Which is not America. Just imagine if it wasn't technology doing the surveilling. You get up in the AM, sit down with your coffee, and see someone hired to look through your window. They have a listening device and are transcribing what you are looking at, how you and your wife exchanged loving expressions of how nice last night was in bed, where you plan to go today, what you might grab at the store. Or you might read the paper and get in a huff about the latest poltical fiasco (and note, if it's political, it's a fiasco). You vent about the lummoxes in charge of the country. It is duly noted. So you step outside for a walk. Social trackers in the street note your location, time, direction. You pass a coffee shop, your purchase is noted - size, number of extra shots, flavor, how much of a tip you left (and to whom, so they can get the tax on it). Done with your morning constitutional, you return home, somewhat annoyed that the guy hired to transcribe your home's activities is apparently trying to see what's going on in the bathroom. The ladder is a bit overkill, you think. But that's how it is these days, if you head out in the car or even get a plane, someone is reporting in real time where you are and what you're doing, where you linger (for marketing, of course), what you purchase, what you say (as has been amply documented upthread and as I have experienced as well). Stalin would look at how they sold us on having our privacy completely stripped away in name of easy this and that and think "Wow! Never thought of THAT one...!"
The hitch here, as we are starting to see, is "Who decides what is wrong?" The good prfesser here has something in his signature about groups that will always try to sieze control and impose their will, and we're seeing bargeloads of that today. But SOMEBODY decides, and acts accordingly. Google's motto (way back when) was "Don't be evil." Ok, so what is evil? Do they decide? Look at the controversy surrounding Twitter and Jack Dorsey's admission. If I have views that differ from the party in power am I now evil? If @Ez2cDave's by no means implausible scenario came to pass, that is a huge leap from requiring a warrant on presentation of probable cause in order to get your information or search your phone, home, computer, car, etc. Ok, the cops still have to get a warrant - thank God.
We may not be there, but we are very close to a situation where "troublesome" swaths of the population could be cut off financially, as well as easily located. We assume honorable use of all this information but are already seeing overreaches and misuse. The populace will always choose tyranny over chaos. And the little groups go first, until enough of an example has been made that the rest comply.
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2012
- Messages
- 6,346
- Reaction score
- 5,557
Ooh... I see a market for lead-lined smartphone protectors, with leaded glass windows.
If you really don't want the tracking/ads/etc., find a flip phone. There are still some out there, but even some of them have GPS's.
If you really don't want the tracking/ads/etc., find a flip phone. There are still some out there, but even some of them have GPS's.
Why can't I ever seem to find a hobby where the other people aren't paranoid the alphabet agencies are going to come and take their Metamucil because they looked up the cheapest prep-H alternative to buy on the internet using duck duck go because its more secure than the oogle-google site......
Wow...
Wow...
You can buy a Faraday bag for your mobile/cell phone for about $50 AUD ($33 US).
They work well.
They work well.
you can also buy them for your head too
https://www.demak.com.au/shop/homewares/aluminium-tin-foil-hat/
TP
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2009
- Messages
- 3,185
- Reaction score
- 1,399
Wait ..... I thought that was what my tin hat was for..... Have I been duped?you can also buy them for your head too
