Is this a good L3 rocket?

[RocketryBen]

Hello everyone, I have recently gotten my L2. I'm looking into getting my L3, but I'm on a limited budget.
I've been looking at LOC & Madcow, and some other companies, and found a rocket that may work.
Do you think I could get my L3 with a Madcow 4" Frenzy? I'm thinking that a M1297W would be great, but I just don't know if it'll hold together or not.
As much as I want a fiberglass rocket, I can't afford one right now.



Thanks!!!


Ben

 

[K'Tesh]

I talked to Mike Fisher about picking up a Binder Design Excelerator. The kit is OOP, but he can still kit one up... The price was quite reasonable $150.00. Binder Design rockets come with decals, and chutes... Might have to ask about AV bays.

The Excel w/Dual Deploy is $139.99 and includes the AV Bay.

He had a competition a few years back with people building his NXRS design stock and going for altitude.

 

[Bat-mite]

I got mine on a MAC Performance Radial Flyer. Currently $234.95 plus shipping. Warning that the smallest M is going to put you at about 13,000 feet. But it will hold up. And it was built with Bob Smith 30-minute epoxy to boot.

 

[Andrew_ASC]

Depends on waivers. You might need something with the plate drag of a barn door if you need the lower the cert alt. But hey I'm a noob.

 

[RocketryBen]

Thanks guys for the tips!
My budget for my L3 rocket is around $150.
Not sure if that is feasible or not.

 

[viciouspeanut]

How often would you be able to launch a $300 motor if your budget for the kit is $150? Just a thought.

 

[djkingsley]

Thanks guys for the tips!
My budget for my L3 rocket is around $150.
Not sure if that is feasible or not.

My L3 project was a modified 6" madcow stinger kit, with electronics, an L motor, an M motor, recovery gear full up was about $2,000. I am sure it can be done for less but it is still a significant investment.

 

[Buckeye]

Sigh. Lots of these "design my rocket for me so I can hurry up to the next level, just because" threads lately. Maybe spend a little more time at L2 and then you can decide for yourself how to proceed to L3, if at all?

My usual spiels here:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...L2-certification-rocket&p=1745274#post1745274

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-Rocket-Recommendations&p=1748731#post1748731

 

[PokerJones]

Thanks guys for the tips!
My budget for my L3 rocket is around $150.
Not sure if that is feasible or not.

No, that's really not feasible. Most of us spend more than $150 on parachutes, let alone harnesses, hardware, electronics, etc. My advice would be to take your $150 and spend it on L2 motors and get a little more experience flying and deploying high power rockets properly. There's no prize for quickest to L3.

 

[Bat-mite]

Thanks guys for the tips!
My budget for my L3 rocket is around $150.
Not sure if that is feasible or not.

Mine ran about $1200, which is really on the cheap side. Don't forget, you need dual electronics, chutes, retainer, paint, epoxy, GPS (if you are going over 5000'), harneses, hardware, ....

 

[rfjustin]

Sigh. Lots of these "design my rocket for me so I can hurry up to the next level, just because" threads lately. Maybe spend a little more time at L2 and then you can decide for yourself how to proceed to L3, if at all?

THIS.

OP, welcome to the forum, but I have to echo this concern... Treat L3 as a journey instead of a destination...

My .02

 

[afadeev]

Hello everyone, I have recently gotten my L2. I'm looking into getting my L3, but I'm on a limited budget.
Ben

Ben,
Please STOP right here, and re-prioritize your rocketry budget.
"L3" and "limited budget" don't belong in the same paragraph, let alone the same calendar year.
Please return to the L3 thought after you have a disposable 4-figure buffer to support your L3 project.

My budget for my L3 rocket is around $150.
Not sure if that is feasible or not.

Not feasible.
Not if you plan on ever inserting a motor ($300+), various electronics ($250+), chutes ($100+), harnesses, and everything else into that L3 rocket!

[...] Maybe spend a little more time at L2 and then you can decide for yourself how to proceed to L3, if at all?

Most of us spend more than $150 on parachutes, let alone harnesses, hardware, electronics, etc. My advice would be to take your $150 and spend it on L2 motors and get a little more experience flying and deploying high power rockets properly. There's no prize for quickest to L3.

All great advise, but it always comes down to budget.
If there is no budget for an L3 project, burning money with L2 motors is probably not going to help with the funding situation.

Rocketry is not a particularly inexpensive hobby.
And a single L3 project will compete for the budget needs with those of an entire TARC team, or 2-3 years worth of mid-low rocket activities !

a

 

[Andrew_ASC]

It's never just at airframe costs. Gets worse if you want a custom airframe no one tried before and you design supersonic fins from scratch. I'd send you a SEDS rocket team budget of how we blew $3,500 on two L-1 multistage competition rockets, one being a "write off" but it would make my university, UTC look bad. Travel costs not included. You can stuff a thousand dollars of electronic guts into a high altitude airframe MD before you blink then lose it all on one flight. Airframes custom were $500-1k. Rest went out of control price wise. The L-3 motor hardware and one reload costs more than a SEDS project startup at college. One O motor is worth more than our project including a launch pad and ignition box along with two airframes, reloads, electronics, spares, and motor hardware.

If you can't afford airframe costs, I'd think about saving money incase an emergency happened in life. It's one thing when someone sponsors you. It's not as fun when it gets real expensive my personal opinion. Paid a thousand out of pocket myself from a internship when we over budget. I'll be happy with L-1 and L-2 motors for a long time. It was fun to attempt a world record for specific impulse at L-1 on a salt flat built on records. That L-3 can wait.

If you can't afford an L-3 airframe look at O motor prices then thank yourself for not buying it.

 

[DavidMcCann]

I’ve spent something like 3-4 years slowly gathering parts for my L3. Picking up bits and pieces in the yard sale.

Almost ready to fly

 

[Andrew_ASC]

Then when we actually freaking placed top third the university had to cough up $3k for a vehicle rental and rooms for a week. After we traveled from Tennessee to Utah then Tennessee to Virginia. Suddenly Florida became a must visit to represent the university. LOL.

 

[jsdemar]

You can build an L3 rocket for $150 if you:

- Have all the electronics already.
- You have a parachute that will work as a drogue.
- Buy a "play chute" for the main ($25) and sew you own extension line ($10).
- Buy cheap 1" tubular nylon on Ebay/Amazon ($25/20yards).
- Use concrete form tubing, two 8" 4ft pieces ($20). Bare. Cut a piece down for a coupler.
- Cheap 1/2" 5-ply plywood for fins and CR's and bulkheads, cut them yourself ($20).
- No motor mount tube. Just use CR's and a thrust plate (double up 1/2" ply).
- An ugly conical nosecone made from a large funnel ($10). Dirt for nose weight.
- Hardware and supplies ($40). No paint.

I've seen it done. It will take a lot more labor than a kit. You will not be proud of it. People will laugh at you.

Or, just enjoy flying more L1/L2 rockets and wait until you have a bigger budget.

 

[Andrew_ASC]

They shouldn't have laughed. That's a miracle someone got an L-3 with that kind of fugal attitude.

 

[Cnorm]

Then when we actually freaking placed top third the university had to cough up $3k for a vehicle rental and rooms for a week. After we traveled from Tennessee to Utah then Tennessee to Virginia. Suddenly Florida became a must visit to represent the university. LOL.

Well bless your heart, you’re answering questions nobody’s asked again. I suggest starting your own thread. Call it “Andrew’s adventures in rocketry” or some such. When you get the urge to post something big what you’ve done, add it in there. People are interested and will be able to enjoy it in it’s natural habitat. Then you won’t be de-railing other threads.

OP: No, that's not a good rocket. The MMT is too small for an AT M.

 

[Andrew_ASC]

I don't see any way how OP is meeting a $150 budget unless that's airframe only budget. The casing is multi hundred dollars.

 

[RocketryBen]

Thank you everyone for the suggestions!
I'll wait a while until I have enough $$$ to go for my L3.
Maybe when I get my Christmas bonus.

 

[ksaves2]

You can build an L3 rocket for $150 if you:

- Have all the electronics already.
- You have a parachute that will work as a drogue.
- Buy a "play chute" for the main ($25) and sew you own extension line ($10).
- Buy cheap 1" tubular nylon on Ebay/Amazon ($25/20yards).
- Use concrete form tubing, two 8" 4ft pieces ($20). Bare. Cut a piece down for a coupler.
- Cheap 1/2" 5-ply plywood for fins and CR's and bulkheads, cut them yourself ($20).
- No motor mount tube. Just use CR's and a thrust plate (double up 1/2" ply).
- An ugly conical nosecone made from a large funnel ($10). Dirt for nose weight.
- Hardware and supplies ($40). No paint.

I've seen it done. It will take a lot more labor than a kit. You will not be proud of it. People will laugh at you.

Or, just enjoy flying more L1/L2 rockets and wait until you have a bigger budget.

That is funny and sounds doable to me. I think in the very old days didn't they do L3's with stuff like that and a timer for apogee only parachute deployment? Kurt

 

[Andrew_ASC]

If someone loans you a M class hardware and a decent FCC tracker, I think you could modify the kit and make it happen for sub $800 flyaway costs. It's only centering rings and a phenolic tube usually on MMT. The problem with a 4" kit is it will go really high on a decent M motor out of visual sight. A third to half of your total expected budget will go into decent electronics once you start looking past 10,000ft seriously. That's why an L-1 MD breaking Mach as multistage going to 20,000ft costs us a lot of money. The winds aloft can exceed 30 miles per hour and your rocket may drift over a mile out of visual sight. The pre-fabbed 6" or greater diameter kits cost a lot of money. People like the larger diameters to increase cross sectional area and have more drag force counteracting the thrust of large motors to keep certification altitudes lower.

Start researching the costs of the airframe electronics or provide stock of what you have now that may help you complete it.
I've seen cardboard boxes at UROC Hellfire 22 fly on L's. They were structurally modified and flew to 300ft then recovered no electronics. Sorry I got ranting to you about my budget experience. I think if club members are generous to you, it could happen relatively cheaper than others $1200-2000 costs if you were using loaner gear.

Cheapest I've seen on an L motor was a highly modified structurally reinforced cardboard box doing 300ft at Hellfire 22. It didn't need any electronics but it wasn't an L-3 build. It had a significantly large plate area and a lot of drag force. It recovered fine.

 

[ksaves2]

If someone loans you a M class hardware and a decent FCC tracker, I think you could modify the kit and make it happen for sub $800 flyaway costs. It's only centering rings and a phenolic tube usually on MMT. The problem with a 4" kit is it will go really high on a decent M motor out of visual sight. A third to half of your total expected budget will go into decent electronics once you start looking past 10,000ft seriously. That's why an L-1 MD breaking Mach as multistage going to 20,000ft costs us a lot of money. The winds aloft can exceed 30 miles per hour and your rocket may drift over a mile out of visual sight. The pre-fabbed 6" or greater diameter kits cost a lot of money. People like the larger diameters to increase cross sectional area and have more drag force counteracting the thrust of large motors to keep certification altitudes lower.

Start researching the costs of the airframe electronics or provide stock of what you have now that may help you complete it.
I've seen cardboard boxes at UROC Hellfire 22 fly on L's. They were structurally modified and flew to 300ft then recovered no electronics. Sorry I got ranting to you about my budget experience. I think if club members are generous to you, it could happen relatively cheaper than others $1200-2000 costs if you were using loaner gear.

Cheapest I've seen on an L motor was a highly modified structurally reinforced cardboard box doing 300ft at Hellfire 22. It didn't need any electronics but it wasn't an L-3 build. It had a significantly large plate area and a lot of drag force. It recovered fine.

Weeeeeellllll, I've seen box rockets, pyramids disintegrate if not designed properly. A triangular USPS shipping tube turned to confetti on a K motor but did fine on lower impulse motors. The "confetti flight" the bodytube with several bulkheads still attached, nosecone and parachute (along with the motor case) came in just as lovely as can be. The rocket turned to confetti in a puff of smoke at altitude and we couldn't see it after that. Everyone was laughing, the flier was dejected because of the potential lost
hardware and we laughed again (with the flier relieved) when the remains came down within sight. I later realized the triangular bulkheads turned the rocket into a sort of "spool" rocket and just kept traveling straight up. Motor was a smokeless type so we
couldn't see the path with the paper confetti the rocket box turned into. (Plus the powder he gobbed in there as this was motor deploy and added to the confetti cloud) Kurt

 

[markkoelsch]

Sigh. Lots of these "design my rocket for me so I can hurry up to the next level, just because" threads lately. Maybe spend a little more time at L2 and then you can decide for yourself how to proceed to L3, if at all?

My usual spiels here:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...L2-certification-rocket&p=1745274#post1745274

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...-Rocket-Recommendations&p=1748731#post1748731

I could not agree more. I have been flying high power since 1997. I finally got my L3 this year. I tried a couple years ago and had a motor failure.

I was likely ready 15 years ago, but finances and life stuff kept me from doing it.

There is nothing saying you ever have to do L3.

Your budget is not close. Probably minimum for a kit capable is $250-300. Likely minimum for harnessing and chutes, if you go on the light side, is $150-200. Altimeters about the cheapest would be $70. Miscellaneous hardware say $20. Retainer depending could be cheap to around $50. Epoxy say $35-50 granted enough for several rockets. Tracking anywhere from about $150 up. Paint if you need it. Then the motor itself is at least a couple hundred if you can borrow hardware. That is the cheap version.




Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

 

[Andrew_ASC]

I will get shredded for suggesting this. How about a 12" x 10ft sch 40 PVC pipe for $160? Op could have a 6ft long airframe 12" diameter with four, 1ft diameter tube fins, and 1ft long sections. The tubes could be rolled in fiberglass cloth and glass reinforced. A multiple sheet Depron foam nosecone is hand cut with a hot wire and sheets are epoxied. Then the nose is wrapped with fiberglass cloth and glassed. A multiple sheet plywood centering ring system and a fiberglass airframe tube is used as MMT. This would be a very economical airframe for its large diameter compared to 6-8" kit prices. The large diameter would keep it low subsonic and hopefully within visual sight to eliminate a expensive tracker. It could easily have room for dual deploy and larger less expensive electronics. The motor hardware,reload, recovery, and electronics would still be relatively expensive.
Or fins up to 1" thick could be plywood cut and layered then wrapped.
But I think there is a way to make hpr rocket cheaper by using easier to find tubes in standard sizes without sacrificing structure, safety, or losing one's pride. An M is still a very powerful motor. It would at least be a scratch built a L-3. Maybe that's an idiot idea but it's an idea. If it worked for less than a $600 kit, flew safely, and looked decent once sanded/painted then why not. Beats recklessly lobbing a plastic trash can on a M. There's gotta be a balance between economy and safety. Maybe I'll shut up.

 

[djs]

I will get shredded for suggesting this.

Not going to shred you.. but I would think that a rocket of this construction, or some other "unique" design would be considered unlikely to hold up to an L3 motor without proof that it's structurally sound. It would be an uphill battle to demonstrate that the rocket isn't going to shred or collapse when flying. Also, in general, not sure PVC would be accepted at all as a body tube?

 

[rockets]

Not going to shred you.. but I would think that a rocket of this construction, or some other "unique" design would be considered unlikely to hold up to an L3 motor without proof that it's structurally sound. It would be an uphill battle to demonstrate that the rocket isn't going to shred or collapse when flying. Also, in general, not sure PVC would be accepted at all as a body tube?

I've heard of people getting their L1 & L2 cert flights on PVC rockets, but for an L3 rocket, I would say NO!
Just my .02.



Thanks,

 

[dixontj93060]

I've seen someone (many may know) do his L3 using 5 gallon buckets--those are pretty cheap!

From the Ether...

 

[tim cubbedge]

I've heard of people getting their L1 & L2 cert flights on PVC rockets, but for an L3 rocket, I would say NO!
Just my .02.



Thanks,

Don’t think so little man. PVC is strictly forbidden for any launch, even in the world of Tripoli.

 

[rockets]

I've seen someone (many may know) do his L3 using 5 gallon buckets--those are pretty cheap!

From the Ether...

I saw that in a Rockets Magazine! Pretty cool rocket!


Thanks,