Is glassing necessary?

[rockets]

Just purchased a 5.5” Iris for a level 2/3 project and am going back and forth on whether or not to glass it. Biggest motors it would fly on would be a M1550 or M1297, so nothing wild like an M6000 but I’d rather be safe than sorry.
When/what makes it necessary to fiberglass a rocket?

Thanks!

 

[sharkbait]

Just purchased a 5.5” Iris for a level 2/3 project and am going back and forth on whether or not to glass it. Biggest motors it would fly on would be a M1550 or M1297, so nothing wild like an M6000 but I’d rather be safe than sorry.
When/what makes it necessary to fiberglass a rocket?

Thanks!

I find the biggest reason to glass is to prevent damage hauling the birds to and from the launch in my truck.

 

[hobie1dog]

I personally don't think it's worth adding the weight.

 

[rharshberger]

I find the biggest reason to glass is to prevent damage hauling the birds to and from the launch in my truck.

+1 to this, I have done both glassed carboard and bare cardboard rockets, the main reason for glassing is preventing travel rash. The M1297 is barely an M no glass required, but it makes for a tougher rocket. Depending on how heavy the cardboard is it may be necessary to reinforce with couplers, keep it undervmach and cardboard will be ok.

 

[SparkyVTFlyer]

I say glass it, especially if you plan on flying Ms. An extra $50-$80 to glass it protects your $500-$800 investment.

I bought a HyperLOC1600 back in 2008. I glassed it and it’s still flying. Over 50 flights to date. A couple times it took a hard landing when the chute got tangled. I doubt it would still be flying if not for the glass. Just my 2 cents.

 

[waltr]

Can't advise on glassing since I've never flown a rocket that big with those motors.
But, would like to see a 5.5" IRIS since it is one of my favorite rockets. I do have the 2.2" IRIS.

 

[DRAGON64]

If strength is what you are after, carbon fiber sleeving may be an excellent choice for a nice balance between minimal weight gain plus airframe integrity. I have used Soller Composites for my sleeving in the past:

- Soller Composites, LLC

Click Here To Contact Us Phone 1 603 671 7016 [email protected] FAX 1 815 642 9593 News & What’s New: 10/2022 – Our Weaving OperationRead More

sollercompositesllc.com

 

[mtnmanak]

I don't think glassing is necessary, but there are occasions where it may be desired. I have flown quite a few LOC rockets on M motors without glassing them.

An alternative to consider - just "paint" the entire rocket, inside and out (even the nosecone), with a laminating epoxy like West 105. Once done, it is not as strong as glassing, but it is stronger than carboard alone and it still gives you a nice hard outer/inner shell that is smooth and paintable. From a weight perspective, it is also a good medium ground between bare cardboard and glassing. I have been doing this for a while now on carboard rockets and it greatly increases their lifespan but takes far less time than all the setup necessary to glass tubes. It also does a great job to fill spirals. For the areas where the couplers need to fit into the tubes, I use CA on the outside of the coupler and the inside of the tubes. Sand everything to fit.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Rick Boyette's "Quasi-Glass" technique is another option to consider.

Dave F.

 

[rockets]

Thank you all for the feedback! Seeing that an M will push it over 600 mph, I’ve decided to glass it.

Looking at West Systems and I have a couple of questions..

For the resin and hardener, do you use 105 resin and 205 hardener or a different combo? Also, there’s a cloth you need in addition to the fiberglass, correct?
Thanks!!

 

[mtnmanak]

Learning to glass a tube is a fundamental skill, so it is good to learn it. It does require an investment in materials and some tools/equipment. I have a few recommendations:

1. Watch all of @JohnCoker videos on glassing and epoxy
2. Search through the forums on this site and review the bazillion threads on glassing tubes
   1. i.e. - basically just read everything / watch every video @tfish has ever done:
      1. https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/how-much-fiberglass-should-i-use.147284/#post-1803904
3. Do not use the 205 fast hardener - it has a very low pot life and will almost definitely harden up before you are half way through with your layup. Use at least the 206 "slow" hardener
   1. https://www.westsystem.com/the-105-system/product-selection-guide/
4. Practice, practice, practice. If you try your first layup on your expensive LOC tube, you may as well call them and order a new one right now, because getting a tube layup right on your first try is very difficult. Paper towel tubes, shipping tubes, old Estes tubes, etc - glass a bunch of stuff before you try it on "production" tubing
5. Consider sleeves, like the ones from Soler Composites, for your first attempts.
6. You also need an environment suitable for laying up composites. Besides needing a large, clean area with good ventilation, you need to have a space that is at least somewhat temperature controlled. Epoxy does not cure well in cool/cold temps and that is exacerbated when doing layups because the epoxy is spread out into a thin layer, so it will take longer to cure at room temps.

 

[rockets]

Learning to glass a tube is a fundamental skill, so it is good to learn it. It does require an investment in materials and some tools/equipment. I have a few recommendations:

1. Watch all of @JohnCoker videos on glassing and epoxy
2. Search through the forums on this site and review the bazillion threads on glassing tubes
   1. i.e. - basically just read everything / watch every video @tfish has ever done:
      1. https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/how-much-fiberglass-should-i-use.147284/#post-1803904
3. Do not use the 205 fast hardener - it has a very low pot life and will almost definitely harden up before you are half way through with your layup. Use at least the 206 "slow" hardener
   1. https://www.westsystem.com/the-105-system/product-selection-guide/
4. Practice, practice, practice. If you try your first layup on your expensive LOC tube, you may as well call them and order a new one right now, because getting a tube layup right on your first try is very difficult. Paper towel tubes, shipping tubes, old Estes tubes, etc - glass a bunch of stuff before you try it on "production" tubing
5. Consider sleeves, like the ones from Soler Composites, for your first attempts.
6. You also need an environment suitable for laying up composites. Besides needing a large, clean area with good ventilation, you need to have a space that is at least somewhat temperature controlled. Epoxy does not cure well in cool/cold temps and that is exacerbated when doing layups because the epoxy is spread out into a thin layer, so it will take longer to cure at room temps.

Thank you!!!

 

[techrat]

This "QuasiGlass" procedure is brilliant. I've been thinking about how to toughen-up my MPR rockets without glassing them as that adds too much weight, and then they won't fly with an F, and this seems to be the way to go. I am going to try this with a "Der Big Red Max" and see how it goes.

 

[rfjustin]

Just purchased a 5.5” Iris for a level 2/3 project and am going back and forth on whether or not to glass it. Biggest motors it would fly on would be a M1550 or M1297, so nothing wild like an M6000 but I’d rather be safe than sorry.
When/what makes it necessary to fiberglass a rocket?

Thanks!

Worth the investment to glass it IMO, @DMehalko for the win here:

 

[thzero]

This "QuasiGlass" procedure is brilliant. I've been thinking about how to toughen-up my MPR rockets without glassing them as that adds too much weight, and then they won't fly with an F, and this seems to be the way to go. I am going to try this with a "Der Big Red Max" and see how it goes.

I must be missing something then,. its the same process that "glassin'" is doing through - whether you use fiberglass (or Kevlar or carbon fiber, etc) sheets or socks. In both cases you are using something that is going to brush on and then cure to adhere the material to the tube; whether that be Minwax (tried it, its meh to me) or a laminating epoxy.

I did this with a sheet of paper and laminating epoxy to repair a V2; it worked fairly well (other than a balsa fin that was papered that needs to be fixed now).

 

[DMehalko]

Worth the investment to glass it IMO, @DMehalko for the win here:

Ha thanks for the shout out! And agreed, good for longevity, durability, hanger rash, higher thrust motors, etc...

Sure you might need a smidge bigger chute for the little bits of added weight, but worth it! I find the process fun, satisfying, and rewarding too

 

[cbrarick]

I don't glass nothing!

My L1 bird rides my trailer everywhere I go - bone stock loc vulconite. It's paint may not be pretty, but the body tube is intact. It's taken everything you can dish out, both commercial and EX (and I really like hard hitting motors)

I've yet to throw out cardboard due to hanger rash, but tossed a rocket I fished out of a lake (after 24 hours).

If you're that worried build fiberglass or carbon....

 

[rdrown]

Glass it!

 

[JRL303]

I don't glass nothing!

My L1 bird rides my trailer everywhere I go - bone stock loc vulconite. It's paint may not be pretty, but the body tube is intact. It's taken everything you can dish out, both commercial and EX (and I really like hard hitting motors)

I've yet to throw out cardboard due to hanger rash, but tossed a rocket I fished out of a lake (after 24 hours).

If you're that worried build fiberglass or carbon....

So you glass everything?

 

[Ez2cDave]

This "QuasiGlass" procedure is brilliant. I've been thinking about how to toughen-up my MPR rockets without glassing them as that adds too much weight, and then they won't fly with an F, and this seems to be the way to go. I am going to try this with a "Der Big Red Max" and see how it goes.

I can put you in direct contact with Rick Boyette, if you have questions.

Shoot me an email . . . [email protected]

Dave F.

 

[A-ron]

Looking at West Systems and I have a couple of questions..

I was shopping for epoxy earlier this year and almost went with West System, but ended up going with Aeropoxy PR2032 resin + PH3660 hardener.

Compared to West System, Aeropoxy has a lower density, longer pot life, higher strength and higher glass transition temperature. In my experience, it soaks amazingly well into cardboard, fiberglass, paper and wood.

Unlike what some posts on TRF would have you believe, Aeropoxy does cure perfectly fine at room temperature (20°C/68°F), but it sure takes its sweet time. I usually wait at least 24 hours before removing parts from a jig and a whole week before removing the VIVOSUN mylar that I use as a peel-ply.

 

[sriegel]

Can't advise on glassing since I've never flown a rocket that big with those motors.
But, would like to see a 5.5" IRIS since it is one of my favorite rockets. I do have the 2.2" IRIS.

This is mine at dry fit. I glassed it with 9 oz sleeve and tip to tip on the fins. Plan to fly it very much like the OP.

 

[neil_w]

Nice steampunking in the background there, and signed by Vern Estes no less. Have you posted more pictures of that one in the past?

 

[sriegel]

Nice steampunking in the background there, and signed by Vern Estes no less. Have you posted more pictures of that one in the past?

No, not here. I had some build pics on the FB NAR page when it was in works. Flew it at NARAM 60 in Pueblo, where Vern signed it. It is also signed by Todd Carpenter, Jeff Taylor, and Ted Cochran, who jointly wrote an article on steampunking rockets in Sport Rocketry, Mar/April 2016. That article inspired this scratch 320% upscale of the Estes Orion Starfighter.

 

[Ez2cDave]

This is mine at dry fit. I glassed it with 9 oz sleeve and tip to tip on the fins. Plan to fly it very much like the OP.

Some "inspiration" !

Dave F.

 

[bibbster]

I can put you in direct contact with Rick Boyette, if you have questions.

Shoot me an email . . . [email protected]

Dave F.

Anyone have a PDF of the Quassiglass method shown above?

 

[drgarymartinez]

This is my 12’x 7.5” LOC IRIS getting ready for ground testing. The entire body tube was covered with Giant Leap’s EasyGlas Sock and resin system. I use this on all of my HPRs.

 

[bjphoenix]

When/what makes it necessary to fiberglass a rocket?

I was thinking maybe it was high velocity, enough to cause fin flutter and things like that.

Speaking of fins- the photographs in post #25 seem to have very large fins for a real sounding rocket. Wouldn't its CG be relatively close to the middle of the airframe? Model rockets usually have the penalty of having a heavy motor in the back and mostly light and empty airframe in front of it.

 

[Joshua Smith]

If strength is what you are after, carbon fiber sleeving may be an excellent choice for a nice balance between minimal weight gain plus airframe integrity. I have used Soller Composites for my sleeving in the past:

- Soller Composites, LLC

Click Here To Contact Us Phone 1 603 671 7016 [email protected] FAX 1 815 642 9593 News & What’s New: 10/2022 – Our Weaving OperationRead More

sollercompositesllc.com

Off topic, but man this place has everything. Colored CF tubing and sleeves and CF-Kevlar weaves and... Damn

 

[Ez2cDave]

Anyone have a PDF of the Quassiglass method shown above?

Of course . . .

Dave F.