# I'm not an electrician but could use the advice of one!

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#### BryRocket

##### Well-Known Member
This seems simple enough to me but just looking for a little confirmation or direction. I have a little pavilion that I am having a single 4-wire 240v cable ran to. I'd like to hook up a 240v IR heater, some lights and a fan. This is what I'm thinking. Does this look correct? Can I wire it up like this?

Thanks a ton!

Bryan

#### jsdemar

##### Well-Known Member
You need at least the ground to the heater. Some timers may need the neutral. Some heaters may need the neutral.

Outdoor codes may require weatherproof boxes and a minimum distance off the ground surface.

#### BryRocket

##### Well-Known Member
You need at least the ground to the heater
Agree. Forgot to draw that over there. Good catch.

From what I'm reading, it sounds like it should work, but I think code requires the 240 circuit to be on its own breaker. I'm also not sure if it would be better to have one 240v breaker at the box or 2 120v breakers. Or, perhaps a 240v breaker at the box but then add another 120v breaker where I split that off.

#### UhClem

##### Well-Known Member
This is a case where you need to spend the bucks to hire a professional. Someone who knows the electrical code and permit requirements.

#### Mushtang

TRF Supporter
I would put the lights and fan on a different breaker than the heater. It should be on it's own.

#### Bowman

##### Well-Known Member
This is a case where you need to spend the bucks to hire a professional. Someone who knows the electrical code and permit requirements.
At the very least, consultant with one licensed in your area if they are willing.
Our opinion on appropriateness of your work will be of zero value at any hearing .

#### BryRocket

##### Well-Known Member
I would put the lights and fan on a different breaker than the heater. It should be on it's own.
This is what I'm leaning toward. I had hoped to do it with one run of 10-4 but it's looking more like running two different lines will be the way to go. Have the electrician run two different lines. A 10-3 on a 120 breaker and then a 10-3 on the 240v so the lights/fan and heater are separate. That way it is to code anyway. Thanks for the help.

#### Marc_G

##### Well-Known Member
Do you need 10-3 for the 120V leg? I would think 12-3 would be fine presuming 15A breaker, or even 20A.

#### Kelly

##### Usually remembers to get the pointy end up
You haven't mentioned the expected current draw for the lights, the fan, and the heater. That will tell a lot about how many breakers you need, what wire size, and whether it makes sense to put in a separate breaker for the heater. (OK, the numbers for the lights/fan probably aren't that interesting, but the heater is important.)

#### Greg Furtman

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
How long will the run to the pavilion be? Are the lights LED? If the run isn't over 100' 12 gauge wire should work fine.

#### Sooner Boomer

##### Well-Known Member
This seems simple enough to me but just looking for a little confirmation or direction. I have a little pavilion that I am having a single 4-wire 240v cable ran to.
This would be an *outdoor* pavilion, yes? Have you considered the need for weatherproofing? GFCI breakers?

#### Sandy H.

##### Well-Known Member
Not sure of locale or if a pavilion is different than a second building (shed) but I was surprised to find out the code requirements for ground rods etc., when running power to an out building from a main service panel. I ran 60A 220V to a sub-panel in the building for additional outlets, lighting etc. At the end of the day, I followed NEC with some tips from an electrician in the area and when it was inspected, everything was fine. Not sure if a sub-panel (outdoor rated) might be a good idea for your project or not. . .

Sandy.

#### RICHARD COLARCO

##### Member
You need a licensed electrician to design your wiring and inspect the work after you are finished. You also may (probably do) need a permit. Doing the wiring is not hard. Spending the money up front is cheaper than tearing it out and re-doing it after an inspector tells you to, as my next-door neighbor found out in a similar project.

I have no dog here, I am not an electrician.

#### Zbench

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
If it were me, I’d run it in pvc conduit and pull stranded thwn type wire. I’d be surprised if you you needed 10 gauge for that heater. Two 12 awg wires can carry a lot of current and are much less expensive. You’d need 6 conductors, 3 current carrying, 2 neutral assuming the heater needs one and a ground. I’d also terminate it in boxes rated for wet/damp locations. You also might consider gfci type breakers in the box to protect both circuits from ground fault instead of using a plug at the pavilion. They aren’t that much snd protect the entire circuit if installed correctly.

#### RICHARD COLARCO

##### Member
If it were me, I’d run it in pvc conduit and pull stranded thwn type wire. I’d be surprised if you you needed 10 gauge for that heater. Two 12 awg wires can carry a lot of current and are much less expensive. You’d need 6 conductors, 3 current carrying, 2 neutral assuming the heater needs one and a ground. I’d also terminate it in boxes rated for wet/damp locations. You also might consider gfci type breakers in the box to protect both circuits from ground fault instead of using a plug at the pavilion. They aren’t that much snd protect the entire circuit if installed correctly.
And if you don't do it to code, you get to do it twice!

#### prfesser

I found Sunset Publishing's "Basic Home Wiring" to be very easy to understand. It's old (1977 copyright) but was still very useful when adding circuits to the kitchen. Just saw a used copy on ebay for $4 with free shipping. #### RICHARD COLARCO ##### Member I found Sunset Publishing's "Basic Home Wiring" to be very easy to understand. It's old (1977 copyright) but was still very useful when adding circuits to the kitchen. Just saw a used copy on ebay for$4 with free shipping.
Code is different now. A 1977 book will likely lead you astray.

#### BryRocket

##### Well-Known Member
Do you need 10-3 for the 120V leg? I would think 12-3 would be fine presuming 15A breaker, or even 20A.
I think you’re likely correct. 12-3 should work here.

#### BryRocket

##### Well-Known Member
You haven't mentioned the expected current draw for the lights, the fan, and the heater. That will tell a lot about how many breakers you need, what wire size, and whether it makes sense to put in a separate breaker for the heater. (OK, the numbers for the lights/fan probably aren't that interesting, but the heater is important.)
I will be using 4 led 4” recessed lights and one fan in the 120v. Also will likely add 1 outlet for plugging in a Sonos speaker.
The heater is 10a 240v.

#### BryRocket

##### Well-Known Member
How long will the run to the pavilion be? Are the lights LED? If the run isn't over 100' 12 gauge wire should work fine.
The run is about 75’ to the pavilion.

#### BryRocket

##### Well-Known Member
This would be an *outdoor* pavilion, yes? Have you considered the need for weatherproofing? GFCI breakers?
Yes and yes.

#### BryRocket

##### Well-Known Member
If it were me, I’d run it in pvc conduit and pull stranded thwn type wire. I’d be surprised if you you needed 10 gauge for that heater. Two 12 awg wires can carry a lot of current and are much less expensive. You’d need 6 conductors, 3 current carrying, 2 neutral assuming the heater needs one and a ground. I’d also terminate it in boxes rated for wet/damp locations. You also might consider gfci type breakers in the box to protect both circuits from ground fault instead of using a plug at the pavilion. They aren’t that much snd protect the entire circuit if installed correctly.

#### BryRocket

##### Well-Known Member
I found Sunset Publishing's "Basic Home Wiring" to be very easy to understand. It's old (1977 copyright) but was still very useful when adding circuits to the kitchen. Just saw a used copy on ebay for $4 with free shipping. Just purchased.$3.84 after tax and shipping. I’m thinking someone may not get rich on that sale.

#### BryRocket

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone for the input. I love this place. I chatted w an electrician. I’m going to run 2 sets of 12 gauge through the conduit from the sub panel to the pavilion. He’s going to do the work at the sub panel with the breakers and then I’ll ultimately do the wiring at the pavilion. I need to update the rough wiring diagram for his blessings but sounds like we have a plan. Kind of what we thought w my original plan, said it would work fine but code says you need a dedicated 240v breaker for the heater. So, started out trying to run 1 10/3+g run and ended up with 2 12/2+g. Really not that much more pricey and will be done correctly (to code anyway).

#### Marc_G

##### Well-Known Member
Given the longish run to the pavilion, and assuming the wires will be buried, here is some further advice:

1. Due to the length, your original plan to use 10-3 instead of 12 guage makes sense.
2. Include at least one extra run of either 10 guage or heavier for future use.
3. Include several CAT 6 or 7 network cables (solid copper, no copper clad aluminum), one RG6 coax, and if possible a fiber optic line. Include plenty of slack at both ends. One day you will be happy to have them. The multiple ethernet cables assume one to get network out there and a separate for ethernet with POE (power over ethernet) for cameras and such.

#### BryRocket

##### Well-Known Member
Given the longish run to the pavilion, and assuming the wires will be buried, here is some further advice:

1. Due to the length, your original plan to use 10-3 instead of 12 guage makes sense.
2. Include at least one extra run of either 10 guage or heavier for future use.
3. Include several CAT 6 or 7 network cables (solid copper, no copper clad aluminum), one RG6 coax, and if possible a fiber optic line. Include plenty of slack at both ends. One day you will be happy to have them. The multiple ethernet cables assume one to get network out there and a separate for ethernet with POE (power over ethernet) for cameras and such.
Ahh. Not a bad idea to, at the very least, run some network cable out there. I hadn’t thought about that. Good idea!

#### Greg Furtman

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Ahh. Not a bad idea to, at the very least, run some network cable out there. I hadn’t thought about that. Good idea!
Yes, it is easier to dig one trench and put what you need & what you might need in it. I once worked at a Wisconsin Community College as IT and very little of the wiring was Cat5e between buildings. They always had some sort of construction going on requiring digging trenches for electrical & plumbing. I'd recommend putting some plastic conduit in for networking but over the 4 years I was there it never happened.

#### OverTheTop

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
As somebody said upthread run some Cat6 cable. Not sure what the regs are there for you but here we need to run them in separate conduits, 6" apart and 2' down underground. Check your local regs.

#### kenstarr

##### Well-Known Member
As a professional electrician, I'm still amazed at how more often than not, a seemingly simple project can take more time and effort than we expected (or maybe I'm just not as awesome as my boss thinks I am). There are usually several code compliant methods to achieve the end result, some possibly better than others and innumerable incorrect methods.... buried EMT, romex (NM-B), extension cords, THHN ran through garden hose... It can be fun to figure it out yourself sometimes but it's not a bad deal either if the work gets done to your satisfaction and you just get to enjoy it. I'm tickled pink I'm not wiring up the new addition on my parents house (permits, inspection, local ordinances are probably different...)