Illegal Motor Shippers.

[o1d_dude]

I wonder if this is gonna end up the same way that the whole ugly mess involving Kosdon and the CSFM did. Nothing really good came out of that.

Totally agree with this.

Now everyone in Cali who wants to fly high power needs a CalPyro III license and ALL reloadables are considered High Power. Ergo, if you don't have the $85 CP3 license, legally you can only fly SU's here. Thanks for all your "help".

'The first rule of Fight Club is, you do not talk about Fight Club.
The second rule of Fight Club is, you DO NOT talk about Fight Club.

 

[SAC of MMMSClub]

I have to concur with Jim and Layne, I retired from the Civilian side of the Navy Shipyard System, I worked on Nuke Subs (nuff said). I have nightmares in color, magenta and yellow. Internal critique beats National critique hands down. I do not know who is shipping without HAZ-MAT charge and Labels, but we all agree that is a BAD, BAD IDEA!
But righteous indignation over the actions of others, can lead to unintended and very draconian results, that hurt the reported and the reporter and then all the collateral damage to the innocent bystanders(US). It aint pretty!

We all know the economy sucks, and people are going to shop for the cheapest deal. We understand your business is down, as is everyones', and you are frustrated with the lack of control over your bottom line. We all understand! :bang:

Work with the Manufacturers first. Remind them of their duty and responsibility first. I am sure they well aware of It, and most people in our hobby are very good people and want obey the law.
Lists are a bad idea, often wrong, and once on hard to get off! i.e. The "NO FLY LIST"
So try to Cool off,:handshake:

-Scott

 

[sunward]

How about a little self-regulation first? ..

self? It is illegal and companies are still doing it.

... why don't you post ...who the vendors are and we just avoid using them in 2011. ....

unfortunately, that may just spread the word as to where to get motors without having to pay the hazmat fee.

...(if not here publicly, then on the TRA list) ...

it is a private list for TRA members only and not all members /shippers are on the list. I also doubt TRA would want to get involved.

 

[rcktnut]

I do not know who is shipping without HAZ-MAT charge and Labels, but we all agree that is a BAD, BAD IDEA!
-Scott

I don't think shipping without labels is the problem. The problem is they are shipping G-80s etc. with F-20's etc. I also think reporting them to the authorities is a very bad idea.

As long as USPS has been shipping what they now allow without incident, maybe it's time to bring up the fact that 25 lbs. of APCP in a box is 25 lbs. of APCP in a box regardless of grain size. Why they can't figure that out on their own is beyond me!!

 

[Bravo52]

self? It is illegal and companies are still doing it.

Alleged...in this country we a innocent until proven....Oh wait, you're in Canada:y: anyway, we really just consider Canada our "northern territories"

unfortunately, that may just spread the word as to where to get motors without having to pay the hazmat fee..

Really?...(as my glasses slip down to give my most surprised look) I think that is a little silly.

it is a private list for TRA members only and not all members /shippers are on the list. I also doubt TRA would want to get involved.

We need Jessie Ventura to get right on thisl....op:

I don't want Steve@Commonwealth saving me just to affect their bottom line. Just give me the info and I'll save myself.

 

[raohara]

I don't believe self-regulation is working. There is a post over on RP by a well-known and respected dealer/distributor (Wildman) where he recounts his efforts at trying to work within the community to resolve the shipping issue to little or no effect. And Steve mentions an Aerotech letter (email, actually) sent to its dealers and distributors that threatens to cut-off anyone that does not comply with the rules. Based on Steve's post it seems that the letter is not totally effective. (Although I believe one major on-line vendor got the message based on changes I see on their web site.)

...I worked on Nuke Subs (nuff said). I have nightmares in color, magenta and yellow. Internal critique beats National critique hands down.

I spent part of my JO (junior officer) tour at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard on a nuke boat. Naval Reactors and their monitor watches; something I will NEVER forget.

- Rich

 

[bandman444]

Is it our job to enforce these laws? I don't think so?

Why hasn't the big man done anything about enforcement?
Why make laws you can't enforce? (Think prohibition)

What i'm trying to say is that it's not our job as civilians to try to "catch" these evil people.

Yes commonwealth i think we all agree here that it is wrong (at least I haven't heard otherwise) and that no one hereplans on patronizing an illegal business. I'm am only skeptical about not knowing. Maybe we are at fault and don't even know it. And I guess by you not telling us who that only hurts you as far as I'm concerned. I will still by motors from whoever I buy motors from until I'm told otherwise.

 

[troj]

I think Bob pretty much nailed my sentiments.

And I do understand the frustration from the folks at Commonwealth; I can also attest to the fact that they follow the rules! Several years back, a friend in Michigan was giving some AeroTech hybrid reloads to a friend of mine. The problem? Getting them to Nebraska.

He talked to the fine folks at Commonwealth, and for a modest fee, they shipped them to Nebraska. Fully documented, legally and properly shipped. The fact that they charged a fee is reasonable, as they were incurring the time to do the paperwork, and providing the packing materials, but hadn't sold anything. We all thought it fully appropriate to pay them for their time, in addition to the standard HAZMAT fee.

-Kevin

 

[MarkII]

If you a $25 hazmat fee excessive, perhaps you should stick with BP motors.

Bob

Except that Estes E9s require the payment of a hazmat fee as well when they are shipped because they contain more than 30 grams of black powder propellant. One more reason to support your local hobby shop. That's where I buy all of mine.

 

[Bazookadale]

As long as USPS has been shipping what they now allow without incident, maybe it's time to bring up the fact that 25 lbs. of APCP in a box is 25 lbs. of APCP in a box regardless of grain size. Why they can't figure that out on their own is beyond me!!

Never underestimate the stupidity of a government agency - and don't challenge them to be more stupid:horse:

 

[Commonwealth.Net]

My comments are based on information from my customers as well as reviewing web sites.

If anyone is shipping motors via UPS with out the Haz-Mat fee and paperwork only the end
Customer and the shipper would know. Based on phone calls to my store I think this may be
happening but I can not prove it. Only YOU know if this is happening.

The more obvious infractions are based on companies that ship motors via USPS. I have placed “sample” orders on several sites, I ordered engines that should ONLY be shipped via UPS and upon check out I was only charged for USPS shipping.

I think it is hard to believe that these companies would charge for USPS shipping And take a $25 dollar or larger “hit” to then ship legally via UPS. Remember to ship engines via UPS you MUST be a certified Haz-Mat shipper. Not every commercial UPS shipper may ship Haz-Mat items. We have to take a certification class ever few years and pay for Haz-Mat emergency response services. These costs run into many hundreds of dollars each year.

Based on their web sites ONLY the following companies via their web sites indicate That they will ship motors not approved for USPS shipment via USPS. I filled out sample Orders and “blew out” of the order process after getting a finalized bill but before paying.

These sites may be doing everything legally, but based on their web sites it does not look
that way.




Date 1/1/11

Hobbylinc:

I was able to order Aerotech G40’s with shipping “USPSHazmat 3rd class ground” They have recently added the phase (to most engines) Shipping HAZMAT Only This was done since a letter went out from Aerotech!
Looks like the G40 may be an oversight, lets hope that they are CERTIFIED Haz-Mat shippers! They also offer Estes E engines via USPS.

Discount Rocketry:

I see no info on Haz-Mat shipping, but they are also “Out of Stock” on all items requiring such shipping.


A2Z Hobbies:

I was able to order Aerotech G80’s and Estes E’s with USPS shipping. Their web site Indicates motors must ship USPS ground, but they are offering items that do not Qualify for that service.

AC Supply:

I was able to order Estes E engines with out Haz fees.



Always Ready Rocketry:

They show Haz-Mat fees on High Power engines but NOT on Hobby line G80’s
Looks like they may be shipping ok.

Heavenly Hobbies:

Indicated Haz-Mat shipping is required on Aerotech G80’s I was not billed
for Haz-Mat shipping upon check out via Pay Pal


Thanks to Aerotech for informing dealers on proper shipping techniques. After re-checking many web sites most now seem to be in compliance with proper shipping procedures. I will keep looking as should you !

Remember ANY engines shipped via UPS require Haz-Mat shipping!
Only some engines may ship via USPS.

 

[alexzogh]

I think Steve needs to be SPECIFIC in his accusations. Saying "I have found many online vendors shipping the these engines illegally in the mail" is complete B.S.

Steve, did you actually purchase the motors, and receive them in the mail? I have found that looking at a website is not a good indicator for shipping fee's - especially in a specialty hobby like ours.

There are some motor vendors that don't put the Hazmat notice on their online stores, but it will show up when you go to complete your order. Others won't charge it at all, yet the box shows up with a hazmat label. I purchased from ARR a while back and forgot to 'add' a hazmat fee to my cart, which was not obvious.

I just purchased something from Giant Leap this morning, and Ed emailed me saying the shipping calculation was too high, and he was refunding me $6!

I just received a box for Christmas from Hobbylinc which had several G80 motors, and was clearly marked hazmat, yet the bill of lading shows shipping charges that are less than just the hazmat fee (my wife needs to learn how to take these off the box before putting them under the tree :>)

For the record, I am not affiliated with any vendor, although I seem to bankroll several of them

Other vendors, take note. While I think Steve is crying wolf a bit a bit here, he has the best "specials", and "blowout" section in Rocketry. Forces me to check out his website at least once a week to see what's new.

 

[stickershock23]

I think Steve needs to be SPECIFIC in his accusations. Saying "I have found many online vendors shipping the these engines illegally in the mail" is complete B.S.

Steve, did you actually purchase the motors, and receive them in the mail? I have found that looking at a website is not a good indicator for shipping fee's - especially in a specialty hobby like ours.

There are some motor vendors that don't put the Hazmat notice on their online stores, but it will show up when you go to complete your order. Others won't charge it at all, yet the box shows up with a hazmat label. I purchased from ARR a while back and forgot to 'add' a hazmat fee to my cart, which was not obvious.

I just purchased something from Giant Leap this morning, and Ed emailed me saying the shipping calculation was too high, and he was refunding me $6!

I just received a box for Christmas from Hobbylinc which had several G80 motors, and was clearly marked hazmat, yet the bill of lading shows shipping charges that are less than just the hazmat fee (my wife needs to learn how to take these off the box before putting them under the tree :>)

For the record, I am not affiliated with any vendor, although I seem to bankroll several of them

Other vendors, take note. While I think Steve is crying wolf a bit a bit here, he has the best "specials", and "blowout" section in Rocketry. Forces me to check out his website at least once a week to see what's new.

another thing to think about even if anyones website shows a haz mat fee or not and even if they CHARGE you a hazmat fee or not. that does NOT mean they did or did not pay for hazmat shipping.

What I mean is. websites are toug to build and design and get everything working perfect. the shipper may get an order for a hazmat motor but screwed up somehow and didn't charge hazmat like they should. ( i have made mistakes on my website everywhere and did not know until it was pointed out or someone orders the "mistake") once they get that order and realize there is an error it might get fixed... it happens.

I once made a paypal mistake on an add to cart button, and a customer was able to order a $100 decal set for $10.00 I didn't see it until my customer ordered one at that price.. OUCH needless to say I lost on that one. but made the repair INSTANTLY. live and learn

 

[BayouRat]

oh Really what AT 38mm are haz mat free? wait what 38mm motors PERIOD are haz free.

Some Kosdon 38mm reloads are Hazmat free. :y:

 

[stickershock23]

Some Kosdon 38mm reloads are Hazmat free. :y:

Thanks I had no Idea. Must be some TINY grains to make it under the limit.
I guess they could have HUGE cores.. that could make them squeek under the limit.

Thanks

 

[cjl]

Thanks I had no Idea. Must be some TINY grains to make it under the limit.
I guess they could have HUGE cores.. that could make them squeek under the limit.

Thanks

As I said, the Loki I405 is hazmat free as well. It's an 8 grain mid I motor - the grains are almost comically short. It gives it a ridiculous regressive burn too, with an enormous kick and very showy liftoff, but a very sharp taper down throughout the burn.

 

[Commonwealth.Net]

I think Steve needs to be SPECIFIC in his accusations. Saying "I have found many online vendors shipping the these engines illegally in the mail" is complete B.S.

Steve, did you actually purchase the motors, and receive them in the mail? I have found that looking at a website is not a good indicator for shipping fee's - especially in a specialty hobby like ours.

There are some motor vendors that don't put the Hazmat notice on their online stores, but it will show up when you go to complete your order. Others won't charge it at all, yet the box shows up with a hazmat label. I purchased from ARR a while back and forgot to 'add' a hazmat fee to my cart, which was not obvious.

I just purchased something from Giant Leap this morning, and Ed emailed me saying the shipping calculation was too high, and he was refunding me $6!

I just received a box for Christmas from Hobbylinc which had several G80 motors, and was clearly marked hazmat, yet the bill of lading shows shipping charges that are less than just the hazmat fee (my wife needs to learn how to take these off the box before putting them under the tree :>)

For the record, I am not affiliated with any vendor, although I seem to bankroll several of them

Other vendors, take note. While I think Steve is crying wolf a bit a bit here, he has the best "specials", and "blowout" section in Rocketry. Forces me to check out his website at least once a week to see what's new.

I have a question about your Hobbylinc order.
I am not sure if I properly understand what you are stating.
If your order of G80's came all marked up via USPS they voilated the law!
If your order arrives via UPS then everything was done properly.
Which one was it, G80's require UPS with a $25.00 additional fee.

 

[edwinshap1]

Totally agree with this.

Now everyone in Cali who wants to fly high power needs a CalPyro III license and ALL reloadables are considered High Power. Ergo, if you don't have the $85 CP3 license, legally you can only fly SU's here. Thanks for all your "help".

actually as long as someone at the launch has it, then it covers everyone at the launch

 

[Commonwealth.Net]

another thing to think about even if anyones website shows a haz mat fee or not and even if they CHARGE you a hazmat fee or not. that does NOT mean they did or did not pay for hazmat shipping.

What I mean is. websites are toug to build and design and get everything working perfect. the shipper may get an order for a hazmat motor but screwed up somehow and didn't charge hazmat like they should. ( i have made mistakes on my website everywhere and did not know until it was pointed out or someone orders the "mistake") once they get that order and realize there is an error it might get fixed... it happens.

I once made a paypal mistake on an add to cart button, and a customer was able to order a $100 decal set for $10.00 I didn't see it until my customer ordered one at that price.. OUCH needless to say I lost on that one. but made the repair INSTANTLY. live and learn

3 Weeks ago I had 4 phones call one Saturday!
All wondered why I charged HAZ-MAT fees, all those were LOST orders
due to properly shipping "hobby line A-G" engines.

I also lost two orders that were placed when my customer(s) did not choose
the Haz-Mat option. I called the customers and informed them they must pay for the service! Both orders were cancled and placed with other vendors
who did Not charge a haz-mat fee. Both customers refused to say who they were placing their orders with. Thats when I started doing research and found the examples listed in a previous post here.

I really don't want anyone to get in trouble, just play by the rules. I do not like the rules as they stand but I also don't want to do prision for shipping a rocket motor improperly.

Please let all your vendors know what the rules are!
Some may not be infomed, lets get the hobby cleaned up before
Big Brother does. Saving $25.00 may destroy the hobby, please order
from vendors who follow the rules.

 

[stickershock23]

As I said, the Loki I405 is hazmat free as well. It's an 8 grain mid I motor - the grains are almost comically short. It gives it a ridiculous regressive burn too, with an enormous kick and very showy liftoff, but a very sharp taper down throughout the burn.

Cool motor then.. sounds like fun

 

[cjl]

Cool motor then.. sounds like fun

Oh, it is. It actually isn't that powerful for an I motor, but it has a lot of show. Very large flame, lots of noise, and a fast liftoff. I should fly another one sometime - I haven't flown one for a while

 

[UPscaler]

As I said, the Loki I405 is hazmat free as well. It's an 8 grain mid I motor - the grains are almost comically short. It gives it a ridiculous regressive burn too, with an enormous kick and very showy liftoff, but a very sharp taper down throughout the burn.

All of loki's 38mm G's, H's and I's (not completely sure on the I's) ship hazmat free because of the grain modifications. That includes the spitfire propellent:smile:


Braden

 

[raohara]

Hobbylinc:...lets hope that they are CERTIFIED Haz-Mat shippers!

UPS won't accept hazardous material until you provide documentation that all personnel involved in shipping the hazardous material have completed the proper training. So I am going to assume that if any vendor is properly shipping hazardous material through UPS they are "certified."

- Rich

 

[Commonwealth.Net]

UPS won't accept hazardous material until you provide documentation that all personnel involved in shipping the hazardous material have completed the proper training. So I am going to assume that if any vendor is properly shipping hazardous material through UPS they are "certified."

- Rich

I was tring to be funny, as last week they had no HAZ-MAT shipping via UPS (as seen on their site), they added that, cool. I hope they got cetrified in a week. Usually takes us months to get into a cert class.

 

[raohara]

I was tring to be funny, as last week they had no HAZ-MAT shipping via UPS (as seen on their site), they added that, cool. I hope they got cetrified in a week. Usually takes us months to get into a cert class.

Gotcha.

I am thinking they went the on-line training route instead of getting trained in a classroom. FedEx offers a course through their web site for around $150.

 

[o1d_dude]

actually as long as someone at the launch has it, then it covers everyone at the launch

Erm...you better check on that one to be sure, young jedi.

The California Office of the State Fire Marshall (OSFM) doesn't care if you are L1 or not only that to engage in HPR, you must have a CalPyro III license. Seeing as how the LCO (usually a CP3) actually presses the launch button, that's okay as far as it goes.

Now that the OSFM has classified ALL reloadables as HP, only CP3 holders can receive, store, and assemble motors. Where does that leave us now?

Now start working on your CP3 paperwork and don't talk about the fight club, right?

 

[alexzogh]

I have a question about your Hobbylinc order.
I am not sure if I properly understand what you are stating.
If your order of G80's came all marked up via USPS they voilated the law!
If your order arrives via UPS then everything was done properly.
Which one was it, G80's require UPS with a $25.00 additional fee.

Good question - I didn't look at the box closely.

The order was shipped via Fedex, with a fedex hazmat label

On the side of the box however, was another label that said USPS on it. I'm guessing thats an internal hobbylinc thing, or a mistake, as it was delivered by fedex.

I've attached photo's of each (with my address blurred)

Total shipping on this box: 12.31, and it was fairly heavy (~10 lbs)

What I was trying to state is there may be a difference between "not charging" for hazmat shipping, and not shipping hazmat. In this case, they clearly didn't charge for hazmat shipping - I don't know the law well enough to know whether or not a retailer is required to charge the buyer. I also don't know whether or not a retailer is required to indicate to the purchaser that particular item will ship hazmat, even if they don't pass on the fee.

 

[edwinshap1]

depends who you buy from, and how much you buy. some companies (i know red arrow hobbies does) that if you buy a large enough value, they'll eat the hazmat charge for the order, but it'll still ship hazmat

 

[cjl]

All of loki's 38mm G's, H's and I's (not completely sure on the I's) ship hazmat free because of the grain modifications. That includes the spitfire propellent:smile:


Braden

I think the I110 is hazmat (I think it uses a single grain), but other than that, I think you're right. I haven't flown Loki in a while, so I didn't remember the details...

 

[kjohnson]

Good question - I didn't look at the box closely.

The order was shipped via Fedex, with a fedex hazmat label

On the side of the box however, was another label that said USPS on it. I'm guessing thats an internal hobbylinc thing, or a mistake, as it was delivered by fedex.

USPS contracts out a lot of stuff to FedEx these days.

kj