Igniters and controllers --- some questions

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I have an Estes E-Controller that has worked great with all of my launches using the Estes igniters that come with the Estes black powder engines. I've never had a single problem with the igniters or the motors in the year I've been a BAR --- push the button, the rocket goes, every time.

However, I did have a problem once using this controller the first time I used the long blue igniters that come with Quest engines. The igniter lit as soon as I did the continuity check. I've read since then that the igniters are sensitive, and the Estes E-Controller sends enough current through the continuity check to light them. I've used Estes igniters in the Quest motors since then, but would like to use the Quest igniters too, especially if I get into clusters.

Also, I have a two-pack of Aerotech E20-7W composite motors that I'd like to try out, and they come with igniters that say they need 12 volts and 3 amps. They suggest a controller that hooks up to a car battery. The E-Controller uses 4 AA batteries, so it's only 6 volts, and I do not know the amps. I haven't tried these yet, but presumably, based on the instructions, my controller will not light these igniters.

So all of this raises some questions:

First, is there a simple way to use what I have? I understand you can replace the bulb in the Estes controller with an LED bulb with a resistor that will make it safe for the Quest igniters. Can anyone steer me toward a source for that? Is it something off the shelf at Radio Shack? What exactly would I ask for?

Also, is there an igniter I can use for these Aerotech E20-7W composite motors that will work with my existing Estes E-Controller?

If the E-Controller is not going to work for what I need, then I'd like to buy an off-the shelf controller that will work for all of these igniters types --- enough juice to light the igniters that need 12V, and a continuity check that won't set off sensitive igniters. I'd like a system that is simple and very easily portable, like the E-Controller is. I often walk to the park where I do most of my launches, carrying everything I need in a single box, maybe 2 boxes at most. So I do not want to lug a car battery. Any suggestions on this?

Secondarily, as a "nice to have," I'd like a controller that will work with any other types of igniters I might start using if I get more into using composites --- something that will light the igniters and also have wires long enough to be safe for up to a G motor. It would be great if I could get these features in the same controller I need for the uses I described above, but if that's not realistic, then that is fine. I won't be using the bigger MPR motors at the park I can walk to, so I'd be open to a heavier system, if need be, when the time comes.

 

[Astro-Baby]

I know this is not much help - I was looking for the same thing as you pretty much. For me the choice came down to the Aerotech controller or one by Mr Max ( https://modelrocketryhome.com/mr-pro-max-12v9v-custom-model-rocket-launch-controller.html ).

In the end I decided to just build my own - which is what I am doing now. I have some advantages which is I am comfy with soldering and electronics (though theres not much in the way of electronics in mine ). If I thought anyone was interested I would post up a step by step guide to building one of these - assuming its perr reviewed and deemed safe by people with more know how than me.

I have run a test with the lashed up prototype and it works fine but before I was so rash as to tell people 'this is how you do it' I would rather someone else checked my design over and gave it some consideration etc.

My requirements were

12v launch capability
Relatively compact
Able to use smaller batteries when required
Safe
Able to use a range of igniters
Has to look the business

The thread is in the Ground Support section here https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...opping-I-will-build-it-myself-comments-please

 

[shreadvector]

Estes E controller has nice thick wires.

Bypass the battery compartment to use a 12 volt power source.

Replace incandescant lamp with direct replacement LED lamp. See many, many previous threads for links to online vendor of these lamps. They have three high output LEDs and the resistor is built on. They simply fit right in the same bayonet mount as the original lamp. You have to remove the cover dome if the controller has one Jed in place as the LEDs stick up bit more than the original lamp.

If you solder wires to bypass the battery compartment, you'll need to use a liquid flux designed got stainless steel as normal solder flux will not allow you to solder to the internal contacts. You could use normal solder with a drop of pool acid .

 

[himitsu]

The Quest controllers use a piezo buzzer instead of a bulb (for the continuity check). The typically used piezo buzzer draws only 10-12ma at 12v. You can get 'em at Radio Shack (or elsewhere). That might be the easiest way to get things working (although the modified E controller might not look too good).

 

[Sooner Boomer]

I made my own. They are extremely easy/simple. This one is all Radio Shack parts. I suppose it's not exactly 100% up to code because it does not have a safety power disconnect, but that's easy to install. I built mine with an LED, so battery polarity is important, but it only draws about 25 mA through the igniter for continuity check.

 

[himitsu]

If you want to go the LED route...

A typical LED max current rating is 20ma. If you use a 1K current limiting resistor on a 12v system, then you limit the current through the LED to 12ma (by Ohms Law). Since 12ma is less than 20ma, you can operate the LED without worries.

So, look at the current rating (of the LED), and keep the current through the LED to less than that value. I think the "fire" current rating of a Quest igniter is about 120ma, so keep the continuity circuit well below that, and you should do fine.

P.S. Ohms Law: V=IR (volts equals current [amps] times resistance [ohms])
P.P.S. Radio Shack should have everything you need

 

[himitsu]

Yes, for those in the know, I ignored the forward voltage of the LED (typically 2.2v), but I see no reason to make things more complicated. The above method should lead to a workable solution.

 

[Sooner Boomer]

Yes, for those in the know, I ignored the forward voltage of the LED (typically 2.2v), but I see no reason to make things more complicated. The above method should lead to a workable solution.

You can get some really nice, really bright (daylight visible) LEDs now. Slightly higher current, but well below firing current.

 

[himitsu]

You can get some really nice, really bright (daylight visible) LEDs now. Slightly higher current, but well below firing current.

Very true. Some of the LEDs manufactured today can be quite bright. In order to take advantage of that, select the current limiting resistor so the current running through the LED comes "near" to its max current rating (but not over it); otherwise, the LED will not glow very brightly. I'd say, stay maybe 10-20% shy of the LED's max current rating. And, of course, stay well below 120ma.

 

[BABAR]

I got the Pratt Hobbies "Go-Box" with the cigarette lighter adapter.

https://www.pratthobbies.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GO-12

Here is the blurb on their site:
The GO BOX is a simple, inexpensive system that will fire any igniter. It uses any 12 volt battery (or your car battery with the optional cigar lighter plug) to provide plenty of power. The daylight-visible LED transistorized continuity circuit will not set off a flashbulb or a sensitive igniter like an electric match. When you plug in the safety key, the LED lights up to verify that you have a complete circuit and are ready for launch.

The standard GO BOX power cable comes with small battery clamps suitable for gel cells, lantern batteries and the like. You can select a cigar lighter plug at no extra charge, to connect to your car battery without opening the hood.

The 25 foot pad cable to the launch pad is connected to the GO Box through a standard RCA pin plug. Audio extension cords can be used to increase the distance between the box and the pad, or you can order 25 foot extension cords from us.


I generally launch from a park where I can get my car close enough to the launch site that the wires are long enough to get from my car to where I sit for launches. It works for both Estes Solar and Quest igniters, and has successfully launched cluster with both types of igniters. It is a really nice set up. I did replace the alligator clips with a little beefier ones. Runs about $40 plus shipping. I really like this one.

Tom

 

[shreadvector]

Once again....if you are modifying the Estes E controller, a simple LED lamp already exists and you do not need to solder a resistor to it. It fits the lamp mount exactly like the incandescent lamp that came with it. Search the forum for the link to the online retailer.

Keep it simple.

 

[BEC]

These are the replacement LED-based lamps Fred is referring to: https://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1174 That vendor now has a number of other choices that would also work. Even though I've retrofit a number of my Estes controllers with these, I'm tempted to try some of the newer alternatives like this one: https://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=2561 or this one: https://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=3105 The former should sit down in the socket and the latter would look like the incandescent with a nice smooth surface rather than the three projections of the LEDs in the ones we've used before.

All you have to do to make your controller Q2G2 safe is take out the incandescent lamp and put one of these in its place. No resistors, no soldering. It's dead simple and it works.

BTW, the Quest controller uses both a piezo beeper and a flashing LED - or at least all the ones I've seen do.

 

[himitsu]

Those are nice (and a much simpler solution). Thanks BEC and shreadvector!

 

[MALBAR 70]

A simple solution to getting power on the field is to use a rechargeable "jump-pack".

A jump-pack is a 12volt emergency car jump starter.

Quite handy to have around and very portable.

 

[caveeagle]

I am curious as to why so many people want a 'continuity' light or buzzer? The 6v controller I built (for my 3x pad launcer) works great and does not have either. I have been to many scout launches, including two in the last 30 days, and my system has proven MUCH more reliable than all the 'stock' estes controlers I see being used. In many cases, I see 'continuity' lights working, and no launch. Biggest problem I typically see is shorted gator clips, or shorted ignitor wires. Neither of these problems are helped with the continuity indicator.

I suppose there is nothing wrong with building this into your controller, but my simple system seems to be producing better results for me. I just find simpler is better!

 

[georgeb]

I am curious as to why so many people want a 'continuity' light or buzzer? The 6v controller I built (for my 3x pad launcer) works great and does not have either. I have been to many scout launches, including two in the last 30 days, and my system has proven MUCH more reliable than all the 'stock' estes controlers I see being used. In many cases, I see 'continuity' lights working, and no launch. Biggest problem I typically see is shorted gator clips, or shorted ignitor wires. Neither of these problems are helped with the continuity indicator.

I suppose there is nothing wrong with building this into your controller, but my simple system seems to be producing better results for me. I just find simpler is better!

Me I like my one bulb Mission Control device. Key in,bulb lit,go time. An I wonder if anyone else the Go No Go Apollo Capcom Launch Check

 

[Solomoriah]

In many cases, I see 'continuity' lights working, and no launch. Biggest problem I typically see is shorted gator clips, or shorted ignitor wires. Neither of these problems are helped with the continuity indicator.

Why not have one? Just because a continuity indicator doesn't help those specific problems doesn't mean it's useless.

I have an Estes controller somewhere, but when I launch off of a single rod stand I use the one I built:

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Thanks everyone for the great suggestions!

I'll look for an appropriate LED for the E controller at Radio Shack or order one online using the links you provided. In the meantime, if I just pull out the bulb, the controller would work (minus the continuity indication step), right? I could use the Quest igniters and still have a two-step process of inserting a key and pressing the launch button, but no indicator light, and no chance of early ignition, correct?

Probably, instead of trying to upgrade the E Controller to connect to a 12 volt source, I will just buy a nicer 12 volt controller in the future.

In the meantime, does anyone know if the igniter that came with the E20-7W will work with the 6V controller, or will I really need to upgrade before using this igniter/motor combo? If this igniter will not work on 6V, is there one that will work for this motor and this controller?

Thanks again!

 

[Solomoriah]

Thanks everyone for the great suggestions!

I'll look for an appropriate LED for the E controller at Radio Shack or order one online using the links you provided. In the meantime, if I just pull out the bulb, the controller would work (minus the continuity indication step), right? I could use the Quest igniters and still have a two-step process of inserting a key and pressing the launch button, but no indicator light, and no chance of early ignition, correct?

Yup, that should work fine.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I took the controller as is to the park today and flew a few motors using the standard Estes igniters that I knew would work. I also tried to use the igniter that came with the E20-7W motor, and it would not light with this 6V controller, just as expected. It is a Firstfire igniter, and I'll need 12V to light it.

So, in the meantime, until I get a new controller or modify this one, is there an igniter I can use in an E20-7W that will light on 6V?

 

[shreadvector]

Estes Sonic Igniters are designed for 6V.

Continuity lights are useful to tell you if you connected the clips or if one fell off. They do not detect shorted wires or clips.

 

[caveeagle]

Continuity lights are useful to tell you if you connected the clips or if one fell off. They do not detect shorted wires or clips.

Yea.... I get the purpose of the continuity indicators. I am just making an observation, that most (or many) of the "no launch" failures are due to shorts. The way I have my launch controller and pad configured, the gator clips (and leads) are hard wired into the PVC launch pad frame. Once you have the clips set up, its very rare for them to fall off. So a continuty test for me would (in effect) only help with defective ignitors.

I have no argument against a continuity indicator, accept for the added complexity. I suppose if you have it engineered correctly, it could be pretty failure-proof. In reality, I built my controller several years ago at 11:30pm the night before our pack launch. I just didn't see the need for it, and we have been running fine since then.

 

[BEC]

To the OP: I just ordered a smattering of the newer types of LED lamps from pinballlife.com - and had to order quite a few to justify their shipping charge. So..... once they arrive, if you'd like one for your E-controller, I'm sure we can come to a inexpensive arrangement for me to send you one in a padded envelope - probably less expensive than a 2-pack of LEDs and a 5-pack of the requisite resistors at Rat Shack.

And to reiterate what Fred just posted - the Estes Sonic igniters, which are sold separately from the PS II composite motors, are designed to work on 6 volts. They don't work too well on 12V as they fire too fast, but on 6V they should be fine.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

To the OP: I just ordered a smattering of the newer types of LED lamps from pinballlife.com - and had to order quite a few to justify their shipping charge. So..... once they arrive, if you'd like one for your E-controller, I'm sure we can come to a inexpensive arrangement for me to send you one in a padded envelope - probably less expensive than a 2-pack of LEDs and a 5-pack of the requisite resistors at Rat Shack.

And to reiterate what Fred just posted - the Estes Sonic igniters, which are sold separately from the PS II composite motors, are designed to work on 6 volts. They don't work too well on 12V as they fire too fast, but on 6V they should be fine.

Thanks Bernard! That'a a great offer. If you would PM me when they come in, I'd appreciate it. I was thinking of doing the same thing --- I would have to order a bunch to make shipping worthwhile, and then I might as well make the extras available to others on the forum if they needed them.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Estes Sonic Igniters are designed for 6V.

Thanks, Fred. That's good to know. I think I even have some of these somewhere now that I think about it --- purchased for an Estes composite motor that I have never flown.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Thank you to everyone who replied and gave advice and info. I think for now I am going to try to use what I have by swapping out the bulb in my E-Controller for an LED to make it safe for the sensitive Q2G2 igniters and using Estes Sonic Igniters that work on 6V to start the E20's. This should meet 99% of my needs for now, and maybe I'll put an upgraded controller on my Christmas list if I think I need it.

Thanks again, everyone!

 

[JStarStar]

Haha, after having read this thread and several others over the past few years, I went out Sunday with my nieces/nephews for a family picnic/launch, and sure enough, forgot all about the Quest igniter issue, and had a couple 'instant ignitions' on Q2G2s once the safety key was put in.

After a quick round of "D'OH!!" on my part, I remembered what was going on, we adjusted on the fly, informed everybody it would be 'launch on continuity' when Q2G2s were on the pad, and had no serious problems.

So today I dug up this thread and fired off an order for a half-dozen bulbs of every color I could conceivably need (as others mentioned, the shipping cost makes it silly to order fewer), so as soon as the bulb package gets here in a couple of days, I'll open up my 1969-vintage Estes Launch Controller, slide in the LED bayonet bulb, and be set to go with an official-looking 'green light' GO indicator.

 

[shreadvector]

We have a supply at our local club and will give them to anyone who wants one for free - they simply need to install it when we hand it to them and use the controller that day.

Haha, after having read this thread and several others over the past few years, I went out Sunday with my nieces/nephews for a family picnic/launch, and sure enough, forgot all about the Quest igniter issue, and had a couple 'instant ignitions' on Q2G2s once the safety key was put in.

After a quick round of "D'OH!!" on my part, I remembered what was going on, we adjusted on the fly, informed everybody it would be 'launch on continuity' when Q2G2s were on the pad, and had no serious problems.

So today I dug up this thread and fired off an order for a half-dozen bulbs of every color I could conceivably need (as others mentioned, the shipping cost makes it silly to order fewer), so as soon as the bulb package gets here in a couple of days, I'll open up my 1969-vintage Estes Launch Controller, slide in the LED bayonet bulb, and be set to go with an official-looking 'green light' GO indicator.