If Estes wants more of my money, then...

[BABAR]

I continue to have flawless* performance of the Estes starters at club launches with 12V systems. That said, I would prefer to use real flaming igniters for clusters.


*I had one failure last week, but it looked like the starter may not have been installed correctly, as opposed to an actual failure.

I have had good results with the new starters, EXCEPT for clusters, and I use a 12 v source. My success rate for the new starters on single motor ignition went waaaay up when I started following John McCoy’s (aka Der Micromeister) advice on using a wadding plug pushed in the a pencil tip rather than the plastic plugs that come with the motor (added benefit, no plastic plugs to clean up after launch, the little piece of wadding disappears, for all practical purposes.)

That said, I tried a three engine cluster using First Fire Minis yesterday, and only one lit, and I wasn’t always 100% successful with the old Quest Q2G2s, surprisingly.

 

[neil_w]

Thus far my cluster flying consists merely of three flights of a Deuce's Wild. I used old black Estes igniters, and all 6 lit successfully. Pretty small sample size.

 

[shreadvector]

Pardon my asking, is this speculation, or is there direct evidence? And please pardon also if that sounded belligerent; it sounds like a very good hypothesis and I'm interested to know if there is specific evidence for it.

This suggests that 12 volt launch controllers might benefit from a current limited mode that holds the current down to a level that allows more time. "Estes Mode" could be switched off for igniters that need more juice.

(If I remember right, the Estes igniter resistance is about 0.7 Ω. A typical fresh AA alkaline cell has an internal resistance of about 0.15 Ω. So the current would be about 6 V ÷ (0.7 Ω + 4×0.15Ω) = 4.6 A. That's leaving out the wires' resistance, which should be much less. So a 5 or 6 amp limit would let the starter run somewhat hotter, but probably not burn out so fast.)

Yes this is based upon direct observation and testing. Quite simple for anyone to do:

1) Hook up a starter to an Estes controller and fire it and watch it. After the clear coating smokes or burns away, the bridge wire will remain and glow, sometimes for a very long time before it possibly melts.

2) Do the same with a controller with a powerful battery. The Starter bridge wire will very quickly glow and melt and stop glowing. If it does not make direct contact with propellant and there is insufficient heat transfer, the propellant will not ignite.

3) Look at failed starters at actual large club launches.
3a)For Estes controllers, the failure may be weak batteries (no sign of heating at the tip) or short circuited thick lead wires below the tip (also no sign of heating at the tip). Very rare to see a melted bridge wire from the 4 x AA alkaline batteries and the thin Estes controller wires to the pad.
3b) For club controllers, the failure is usually a bridge wire that is gone after a launch attempt or a short circuit in the thicker lead wires below the tip (in which case you may heat up the thick wires, set the paper on fire and potentially immolate the rocket from the fins upward as the fire spreads).

 

[sl98]

Two new kits coming soon...Tazz and Destinatino Mars MAV https://estesrockets.com/product-category/coming-soon/

 

[K'Tesh]

Two new kits coming soon...Tazz and Destinatino Mars MAV https://estesrockets.com/product-category/coming-soon/

Tazz looks like fun!!! The instructions are already up, and from what I see, it's going to be a crowd pleaser.

 

[John Taylor]

Has anyone augmented Estes "starters" by using a small bit of Quick Dip on the head to improve reliability in clusters?

 

[James Harechmak]

Has anyone augmented Estes "starters" by using a small bit of Quick Dip on the head to improve reliability in clusters?

I'm sure lots have, I've seen it mentioned several times. I remove the corn starch end off before re-dipping.

 

[jqavins]

And not just Quick Dip. I'v used my own pyrogen enhancer, saltpeter and powdered magnesium.

 

[John Taylor]

Thanks mucho

 

[rharshberger]

I'm sure lots have, I've seen it mentioned several times. I remove the corn starch end off before re-dipping.

I dont bother with the extra step of removing the corn starch, I just dip' em and everyone so far has worked fine.

 

[kuririn]

Removing the corn starch coating will ignite the pyrogen faster. Doesn't make a difference in single engine launches (other than slightly longer to ignite) but may make a difference in simultaneous ignition for clustered motor launches.
A side by side test was run here:
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2018/08/estes-starter-igniter-upgrade-update.html

 

[kuririn]

P.S. Forgot to mention: While QuickDip is a great product, you probably don't have hundreds of ignitors lying around. So you would dip those that you have and seal the dip in an airtight bottle. Don't use the plastic mixing bottle it is supplied with, that is not airtight. The acetone will evaporate. You can reconstitute the dip if it is still a thick paste, but if has dried rock hard then it's a lost cause. That's why some people prefer to use (fill in the blank) for the pyrogen enhancer.( Beacon Fabritac + 4F, nitrocellulose lacquer + 4F, saltpeter + magnesium, whatever).

 

[jqavins]

Removing the cord starch also keeps the result smaller.

 

[OC-Patrick]

B8 and B14 motors...

 

[Ez2cDave]

And not just Quick Dip. I'v used my own pyrogen enhancer, saltpeter and powdered magnesium.

Let us not forget ( Google these )

(1) Thermite

(2) Crimson Powder

Dave F.

 

[rharshberger]

P.S. Forgot to mention: While QuickDip is a great product, you probably don't have hundreds of ignitors lying around. So you would dip those that you have and seal the dip in an airtight bottle. Don't use the plastic mixing bottle it is supplied with, that is not airtight. The acetone will evaporate. You can reconstitute the dip if it is still a thick paste, but if has dried rock hard then it's a lost cause. That's why some people prefer to use (fill in the blank) for the pyrogen enhancer.( Beacon Fabritac + 4F, nitrocellulose lacquer + 4F, saltpeter + magnesium, whatever).

For storing mixed pyrogen dips a regular pill bottle works very well, it has a airtight or nearly so seal that acetones and lacquer thinners dont seem to attack. Typically I check my dips every so often to verify they are not drying out (usually monthly) which hasn't been a problem. pill bottles are HDPE iirc. I have been storing them this way for about 6 months now.

 

[KILTED COWBOY]

If Estes wants more of my money they better start returning phone calls to their customer service department.
I damaged a few parts on my Saturn V build and wanted to purchase replacements. Some are on their website but one part is not.
Left a message with customer service Monday morning, then filled out the form on their website for help later that afternoon.
Waited till Wednesday and left another message. Still have not heard a word.
Perhaps my rocket kit and motor money might be better spent elsewhere if this is how they treat customers

 

[rharshberger]

Send an email, I have never waited more than 3 days (that I can remember) for a response back, include a phone number with the email and they may call you back.

If Estes wants more of my money they better start returning phone calls to their customer service department.
I damaged a few parts on my Saturn V build and wanted to purchase replacements. Some are on their website but one part is not.
Left a message with customer service Monday morning, then filled out the form on their website for help later that afternoon.
Waited till Wednesday and left another message. Still have not heard a word.
Perhaps my rocket kit and motor money might be better spent elsewhere if this is how they treat customers

 

[KILTED COWBOY]

If Estes wants more of my money they better start returning phone calls to their customer service department.
I damaged a few parts on my Saturn V build and wanted to purchase replacements. Some are on their website but one part is not.
Left a message with customer service Monday morning, then filled out the form on their website for help later that afternoon.
Waited till Wednesday and left another message. Still have not heard a word.
Perhaps my rocket kit and motor money might be better spent elsewhere if this is how they treat customers

Update, nice lady in customer service called me. Apologized she was out a few days.
She is sending me replacement parts at no charge, even though I damaged them.
My faith is restored.

 

[Flyfalcons]

Imagine that, a little bit of patience goes a long ways. I am sooooo glad I don't work customer service.

 

[KILTED COWBOY]

Imagine that, a little bit of patience goes a long ways. I am sooooo glad I don't work customer service.

My job in the auto industry has a lot of customer service involvement.
If I am not going to be at work for a few days my voice mail will state so and let folks know with an alternative contact.
Patience does go a long way, but informing your customers at all times saves a lot of ill will

 

[A & B Model Rocketry]

We were talking about this on the Estes Rocketeers FB page. Word is that their long-time customer service person just passed away a few days ago, so they have had a lot to deal with.

 

[rharshberger]

We were talking about this on the Estes Rocketeers FB page. Word is that their long-time customer service person just passed away a few days ago, so they have had a lot to deal with.

Christine Swartz passed away in Oct 2018 and she was the one most of us dealt with for many years (iirc the lady before her was Mary), hopefully Estes has not lost another fine employee.