ICEs and EVs

[kuririn]

Scenarios like that with math, you don't answer "false, because trains don't go that fast, the train may be delayed, it takes time for the train to get up to speed, etc." You don't make up other information based on your own experience to question the math of this statement imho.

In other words don't presume?
And yet you are presuming that the meme implies an "additional electrical vehicle".
It does not.
The scenario is saying that people claim an EV purchase makes sense economically because of the gas savings. while in reality the pay back period is 52 years.
This is the common argument for EVs and is being disputed in the meme using fractured math.
Don't read more into it than is there.
And this doesn't even take into account the tax credits.

 

[afadeev]

One example is to switch EV to the common pitch of solar roof:
"BUYING A $50K SOLAR ROOF TO SAVE $80 A MONTH ON ELECTRICITY MEANS IT WILL TAKE 52 YEARS TO BREAK EVEN"
So on this example, is the math way off?

You keep changing the subject whenever your argument falls apart. First wierdly priced EVs, now weirdly priced solar roofs?
What's next? Weirdly priced electric planes?

Please see Strawman argement description above.

I think we all agree here that spending $50k ONLY to save $80/month is stupid. No need for complex math of other hypothetical scenarios and break even points.

Funny you should bring this up. I was in a very similar situation shopping for the first car for our teeanger this summer.
I really didn't want to maintain another used car (have plenty of car projets already), so it was going to be either something brand new, or extremely well maintaned used with full "old school" maintenance history. Used car path quickly fizzles out, which is a discussion for another thread.

The baseline was a Honda Civic - $25K for a stipper, $27K in a half-decent configuraiton, before 6.625% taxes, registration, lending fees, etc. Baseline all-in lease terms were ~$365 per month for 36 months / 10K per year.

Started test driving ICE vehicles (Civic, Camry, Rav4, CRV, etc), then moved onto EVs. In absolutely no hurry, since he was only getting this drivers license this winter, so having fun with the shopping process.

I must have test driven most of the EVs on the market: Kia, Nissan, Huyndai, Genesis, Tesla, BMW i4, Mercedes, Polestar, Volvo, Chevy, Audi.

• Audi E-Tron GT was my favorite, by far. Way too pricey for a teenager. Used GT's are 50-60% off now and are a steal. I would seriously look into getting a used one if I was shopping for another EV for myself.
• Genesis GV60 and Toyota BZ4X were advertised with fantastically low lease payments (< $200/month), but for very specific configurations and MY'24 samples that no dealers had in stock within 1,000 miles. Basically, bait-and-switch advertising.
• Lexus RZ300e was (and still is) offered for lease with $16.5K off ($18.5K for RZ450) plus a few other promos. These massively reduce monthly payments. We picked the slower of the two for our teenager, with the precise sticker price of $51,650.00. 36-month / 10K per year all-in lease payment at $278/month (no sales tax on EVs in NJ).

Gas savings?
10K / year = 30K over 36 months.
Gasoline cost (premium @25 mpg) = 30,000 / 25 * $4.00 = $4,800.
Electricity cost ($0.137245 per KWh, 285 Wh/mile) = =30,000 * 0.285 * $0.137245 = $1,176.44.
Energy savings over 36 months = $3,623.56.

So, to answer your question - "spending" $52K for an EV is $6,755.56 cheaper over the 36-month lease term than "spending" $27K on an ICE car!

So, what kind of stupid would "buy" an ICE car in today's market?
How do you like 'em apples!?

a

P.S.: Yeah, I had reservations about giving a kid Lexus as a first car. Buy hey, I'm cheap, and it was the cheapest half-decent vehicle on offer!

 

[bjphoenix]

P.S.: Where do you have to live to pay $80/month for gas these days?

So many variables- what is the average mileage per year for most people? what is the average mpg these days?

I'm very non-typical, for most of my working life my commute was about 150 miles per week and I got around 20 mpg city so that is 32 gallons per month. At $2.70/gal. that would be $88. Right before Covid we moved a little farther away and for the next few years my commute was 50/day, but for most of that time I didn't drive to work every day. These days I don't go to my office at all, and just drive to the grocery store and places like that, but I do make 5 or 6 long road trips that make up for it. My wife's car only gets about 1000 miles per year.

 

[KenECoyote]

Got this in my feed and the other link is the original article referenced.

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-full-self-driving-computer-failures-are-bricking-1851734447

https://electrek.co/2024/12/16/tesla-major-issue-self-driving-computer-inside-new-cars/

 

[darrenf]

Got this in my feed and the other link is the original article referenced.

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-full-self-driving-computer-failures-are-bricking-1851734447

https://electrek.co/2024/12/16/tesla-major-issue-self-driving-computer-inside-new-cars/

View attachment 687731

Before I break down all the misinformation in this article, Jalopnik has been well known as Tesla haters for years, and Electrek's owner doesn't own any Tesla stock, and has also had a bug up his ass about Elon for years now since he hasn't yet received his free roadster from Tesla.

Let's start with the Jalopnik article.... I will clip out the highlights that scream bias.
We’ve known for a while just how big of misnomer Tesla’s “full self-driving” is.
Undeniably an opinion. One you may or may not agree with, but it is an opinion, especially since it's well understood by anyone with 2 brain cells that it is an aspirational name, that has always had the disclaimer that it is not fully functional yet, and you have to agree to that before enabling it.

FSD computer failures making things like assistance features, airbags, navigation, cameras, etc. inoperable...
The FSD has zero influence on airbags, which are their own system. edit to add--(investigating this now to make sure my statement here is correct) No ONE is reporting airbags failing. This is just more made up FUD from Jalopnik to make things seem worse then they are, the hallmark of a biased article.

This latest FSD issue seems to be the cherry on top of a crap filled sundae that’s been melting for a while now.
Clearly a neutral article from a trusted news source.

We had the same issue on our Model Y 2024. Bought it new at the end of June. The problems started in October. I noticed some glitches on the screen, bluetooth and wifi stopped working. Tried to reboot and went into an infinite loop. Tesla had to tow the car and they almost made me pay because it was too far. In the end they gave us a model 3 for a week until they replaced the computer.
You won't find me ever state that these cars are perfect, but find me a car that is. This is the impossible standard that biased people hold things they dislike to. The item had a production issue, they gave the person a loaner and fixed it. Oh no, Tesla is a horrible failure.

Another fix involved a software update, but that seems to make things worse. Owners have reported that their batteries have been draining since the update, with some even describing it as “battery degradation.”
First, owners that don't understand the settings they have enabled have complained about "phantom" drain for years now, until they learn why and can turn extra features off while parked if they decide the drain isn't worth it (cabin overheat protection, sentry mode, etc).
Also, lets just enjoy the fact that they QUOTE someone saying "battery degradation" but provide zero links or sourcing to the quote. So honest, so much journalisming. The term "battery degradation" is another keyword that gives away their motive, as it implies that the battery will have less and less capacity at some sort of accelerated rate due to this issue, which is completely not backed by any evidence.

 

[OverTheTop]

The FSD has zero influence on airbags, which are their own system. No ONE is reporting airbags failing. This is just more made up FUD from Jalopnik to make things seem worse then they are, the hallmark of a biased article.

Are you sure the airbags are a completely separate subsystem? I think on my car they share the CAN bus for communications. A module, say the FSD computer in the case of the Tesla, can corrupt the bus by jabbering or otherwise affecting signals on the bus. It is not supposed to happen but I can imagine some systems where a hardware failure or software bug causes it to happen. It would be rare, but not out of the question.

 

[darrenf]

Are you sure the airbags are a completely separate subsystem? I think on my car they share the CAN bus for communications. A module, say the FSD computer in the case of the Tesla, can corrupt the bus by jabbering or otherwise affecting signals on the bus. It is not supposed to happen but I can imagine some systems where a hardware failure or software bug causes it to happen. It would be rare, but not out of the question.

I know critical control systems are separate from the FSD computer entirely, that's why you can accelerate, turn, stop and brake normally with complete failure of the FSD system. It seems incomprehensible that the airbags would have any dependance on the FSD computer. I'll dig deeper though and get back to you.

 

[OverTheTop]

I know critical control systems are separate from the FSD computer entirely, that's why you can accelerate, turn, stop and brake normally with complete failure of the FSD system. It seems incomprehensible that the airbags would have any dependance on the FSD computer. I'll dig deeper though and get back to you.

Thanks. As a hardware engineer, and also a software (including test engineer for some time) I have seen some strange things happen when firmware/software doesn't behave nominally. Things like lost packets, to completely forgetting some messages that otherwise got through. The problem is that software cannot be entirely tested, unless written in very specific ways. One method involves splitting the tasks into small enough blocks so they can be entirely tested for all combinations. It might have been the Apollo Guidance Computer that split routines when there were more than seven decisions in the block. There are other languages specifically written for good test coverage, but they are not common. With regular software there is no way to test for all possible conditions in a reasonably achievable time.

 

[darrenf]

Thanks. As a hardware engineer, and also a software (including test engineer for some time) I have seen some strange things happen when firmware/software doesn't behave nominally. Things like lost packets, to completely forgetting some messages that otherwise got through. The problem is that software cannot be entirely tested, unless written in very specific ways. One method involves splitting the tasks into small enough blocks so they can be entirely tested for all combinations. It might have been the Apollo Guidance Computer that split routines when there were more than seven decisions in the block. There are other languages specifically written for good test coverage, but they are not common. With regular software there is no way to test for all possible conditions in a reasonably achievable time.

I'm still working on it. I haven't found anything concrete yet, a few people making the same assumptions I did, but nothing definitive. I will get a chance to speak with a Tesla tech in a couple of weeks, so we might have to delay gratification on this one till then. Even then there is a possibility that it won't be definitive. I'll let you know.

 

[afadeev]

The recent physical recall for HW4 board's short-circuiting mentions the following systems going down w/o operational HW4:
"rear-view cameras, auto wipers, auto high beams, cameras, GPS, navigation, and range estimations."

What triggered the recall was non-compliant with NHTSA without rear-view cameras.
Disabling of airbags would have stood out as a major safety/NHTSA non-compliance issue, and would have been mentioned if it was impacted.

https://electrek.co/2025/01/10/tesl...200000-for-the-self-driving-computer-failure/
HTH,
a

 

[darrenf]

Thanks. As a hardware engineer, and also a software (including test engineer for some time) I have seen some strange things happen when firmware/software doesn't behave nominally. Things like lost packets, to completely forgetting some messages that otherwise got through. The problem is that software cannot be entirely tested, unless written in very specific ways. One method involves splitting the tasks into small enough blocks so they can be entirely tested for all combinations. It might have been the Apollo Guidance Computer that split routines when there were more than seven decisions in the block. There are other languages specifically written for good test coverage, but they are not common. With regular software there is no way to test for all possible conditions in a reasonably achievable time.

So, Tesla has offered a "recall" now. An over the air software update that just downloads and then installs with a click to confirm on the owner's smartphone. In their recall notice they mention the rear camera being disabled as a result of the problem, and that does not comply with Federal Motor Vehicle safety standards. It seems quite logical, that if the airbags had become disabled they too would have been mentioned in the recall notice, as airbags also are part of Federal motor vehicle safety standards. I am still going to talk to a Tesla tech on the 20th, so will try to get more info, but the recall notice puts this issue to rest in my mind.

Tesla AI4 recall notice

 

[jderimig]

I find this a bit funny, is it just me?

Is my vehicle safe to drive?
Loss of the rearview camera display may affect the driver’s rear visibility and increase the risk of a collision. The driver may continue to reverse the vehicle by performing a shoulder check and using their mirrors.

 

[Rocket-Fan]

I find this a bit funny, is it just me?

Is my vehicle safe to drive?
Loss of the rearview camera display may affect the driver’s rear visibility and increase the risk of a collision. The driver may continue to reverse the vehicle by performing a shoulder check and using their mirrors.

Your post reminds me of this ...

 

[boatgeek]

Your post reminds me of this ...

Remind me again which generation taught Gen [insert whichever one you want to slag off next here]? If they don't have skills you think are important, is it their fault?

It's like the steadily recurring thing about car manuals in the 60's talking about adjusting the points and car manuals in the 2010's telling you not to drink the battery acid. Is it Gen Y/Z's fault that car technology is reliable enough now that they don't generally need to do roadside maintenance and that some boomer drank battery acid and their family sued the car company?

And you old folks can get off my lawn.

 

[Rocket-Fan]

Remind me again which generation taught Gen [insert whichever one you want to slag off next here]? If they don't have skills you think are important, is it their fault?

It's like the steadily recurring thing about car manuals in the 60's talking about adjusting the points and car manuals in the 2010's telling you not to drink the battery acid. Is it Gen Y/Z's fault that car technology is reliable enough now that they don't generally need to do roadside maintenance and that some boomer drank battery acid and their family sued the car company?

And you old folks can get off my lawn.

I should have included a trigger warning, apparently ...

 

[Art Upton]

I find this a bit funny, is it just me?

Is my vehicle safe to drive?
Loss of the rearview camera display may affect the driver’s rear visibility and increase the risk of a collision. The driver may continue to reverse the vehicle by performing a shoulder check and using their mirrors.

I have a backup Cam, I still have to shoulder check and use mirrors to be totally safe.

My car even says that on the Cam Screen when in Reverse; "Make sure you are aware of your surroundings to be safe"

 

[darrenf]

I have a backup Cam, I still have to shoulder check and use mirrors to be totally safe.

My car even says that on the Cam Screen when in Reverse; "Make sure you are aware of your surroundings to be safe"

Even though the rear view and side camera's n the main screen show more than I can see behind and around the sides of the car, I still always look through the windows before moving at all. The rear bumper cam is especially helpful when backing out blind, as the wide field of view mounted on the back can definitely see approaching vehicles or people that I cannot. Even having grown up on video games though, I still have to see with my own eyes for most of the movement. If I really wanted to though, I could imagine using only the screen would be fine.

 

[Art Upton]

Even though the rear view and side camera's n the main screen show more than I can see behind and around the sides of the car, I still always look through the windows before moving at all. The rear bumper cam is especially helpful when backing out blind, as the wide field of view mounted on the back can definitely see approaching vehicles or people that I cannot. Even having grown up on video games though, I still have to see with my own eyes for most of the movement. If I really wanted to though, I could imagine using only the screen would be fine.

Somehow , people seem to cloak themselves walking in Kroger's parking lots, and then appear out of no-where when they drop their shields

 

[darrenf]

Popped up on Reddit today. Of course it’s biased, but it’s also real feelings.

Redditor asks current Model 3 owners if they regret it.

 

[KenECoyote]

Popped up on Reddit today. Of course it’s biased, but it’s also real feelings.

Redditor asks current Model 3 owners if they regret it.

This is probably me lol



After chatting with you a bit, I was thinking of a M3Perf as my next car (whenever that will be*).

I do love acceleration, but I don't think there is a Tesla equal for my Miatas' handling on the mountain roads by me, especially with the top down... pure bliss and fun - with maybe the exception of the Sportster, which I wanted when it first came out, but that would miss a lot of the practicality benefit and my wife wouldn't want to drive it, so a harder "sell".

Surprisingly, I don't believe I've seen any Teslas do any really fast acceleration on the roads I've driven and this includes NYC, where there are a LOT of them and also a lot of crazy drivers.

Also at the 2021 Autocross series I attended, one of the instructors was allowed to use someone's M3 (not sure if Perf) and he didn't do as well as his usual modded Toyota MR2. However, this is a VERY tight Autocross track.

*On a side note, I lost the equivalent of a M3P cost recently due to some weird actions on my 401K that I wasn't told about and didn't give informed consent to (figuring out how to fight this now... apparently it was a VP there who did it, which complicates things), so it may have to wait.

 

[darrenf]

This is probably me lol

View attachment 688634

After chatting with you a bit, I was thinking of a M3Perf as my next car (whenever that will be*).

I do love acceleration, but I don't think there is a Tesla equal for my Miatas' handling on the mountain roads by me, especially with the top down... pure bliss and fun - with maybe the exception of the Sportster, which I wanted when it first came out, but that would miss a lot of the practicality benefit and my wife wouldn't want to drive it, so a harder "sell".

Surprisingly, I don't believe I've seen any Teslas do any really fast acceleration on the roads I've driven and this includes NYC, where there are a LOT of them and also a lot of crazy drivers.

Also at the 2021 Autocross series I attended, one of the instructors was allowed to use someone's M3 (not sure if Perf) and he didn't do as well as his usual modded Toyota MR2. However, this is a VERY tight Autocross track.

*On a side note, I lost the equivalent of a M3P cost recently due to some weird actions on my 401K that I wasn't told about and didn't give informed consent to (figuring out how to fight this now... apparently it was a VP there who did it, which complicates things), so it may have to wait.

I thought of you when I saw that thread, that's why I posted it, I was hoping you saw it.
Not many cars can hold a candle to a Miata on an autocross track. I think you'd have to go to a shifter cart to see a noticeable difference.

That is seriously messed up on your 401k. It's that kind of nightmare that is the reason I control all my investments.

 

[KenECoyote]

That is seriously messed up on your 401k. It's that kind of nightmare that is the reason I control all my investments.

I did too until I made the mistake of calling to inquire about withdrawals. I was scheduled a call with the VP, I didn't get the call and a week or so later (while on a cruise) I saw that my funds were moved!

Sorry to go OT, but it was oddly related to an EV consideration lol

Edit add: I've mae a separate post about this to seek other's advice (even though I have a preliminary plan on tackling)

 

[KenECoyote]

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/el...-stripped-out-tesla-model-3-performance-track

 

[KenECoyote]

In case anyone was in the market for a 1,000ish HP vehicle...

https://carbuzz.com/cheapest-1000-hp-on-sale-2025-tesla-model-s-plaid/

 

[KenECoyote]

https://www.thecooldown.com/green-business/tesla-model-3-green-ncap-efficiency/

 

[darrenf]

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/el...-stripped-out-tesla-model-3-performance-track

And keep in mind this is the China built Model 3 performance, which uses different batteries than our domestic Model 3, and is therefore down over 50HP compared to the American Model 3.


Edit to add... Just went back and noticed that even though this article is from this year, that is the last Gen Model 3 in the pictures, so if that is in fact the car they are referring to, that is even slower than the current European model.

 

[darrenf]

In case anyone was in the market for a 1,000ish HP vehicle...

https://carbuzz.com/cheapest-1000-hp-on-sale-2025-tesla-model-s-plaid/

That car can definitely give you bragging rights at the dragstrip, but most guys I have talked to that own both the Plaid S and now the new Model 3 Performance say the Model 3 is more fun to drive as it is much better balanced and tossable. I have not yet had the chance to drive a Plaid S. I like smaller cars myself.

 

[bjphoenix]

That car can definitely give you bragging rights at the dragstrip, but most guys I have talked to that own both the Plaid S and now the new Model 3 Performance say the Model 3 is more fun to drive as it is much better balanced and tossable. I have not yet had the chance to drive a Plaid S. I like smaller cars myself.

I had a fairly peppy little car, I learned pretty fast not to mess with any Tesla.

Back in late 1970s we had a pretty bad gas crisis. I ended up with a 1973 Datsun pickup, very low on power but it got 26 mpg city driving. Little old ladies would run away from me at traffic lights not even realizing I was racing them. I felt the same way with my V8 sedan when following a Tesla.

I remember one of the American Top Gear episodes where the guys picked out performance cars. One of the guys picked out a Tesla and in their race he pulled far ahead of the others. Then when the Tesla hit its 155mph governed top speed the other guys eventually caught and passed him. Come to think of it if I had enough open road I could have caught and passed that Tesla if it was governed to 155. There certainly isn't enough open road around where I live.

 

[darrenf]

I had a fairly peppy little car, I learned pretty fast not to mess with any Tesla.

Back in late 1970s we had a pretty bad gas crisis. I ended up with a 1973 Datsun pickup, very low on power but it got 26 mpg city driving. Little old ladies would run away from me at traffic lights not even realizing I was racing them. I felt the same way with my V8 sedan when following a Tesla.

I remember one of the American Top Gear episodes where the guys picked out performance cars. One of the guys picked out a Tesla and in their race he pulled far ahead of the others. Then when the Tesla hit its 155mph governed top speed the other guys eventually caught and passed him. Come to think of it if I had enough open road I could have caught and passed that Tesla if it was governed to 155. There certainly isn't enough open road around where I live.

The non performance sedans are limited to 155 or below depending on model, The Plaid with track pack is limited to 200mph, and my 3 is limited to 163.