ICEs and EVs

[afadeev]

Huh? I went to have wheels and oil changed (for say $80-$100) and they called me to say they would do the "rotor cleaning" for en extra $100 or so. Something like that. That's as many details as I remember.

Some guy here did the experiment I had in mind. Almost the same car, probably exact same brakes and rotors:

Valid observation from the driver in the video - using friction brakes cleans the rotors. Duah.
Also some false statements that ought to be corrected, before someone takes them to heart:

• Pressing the brake pedal absolutely DOES engage friction brakes on all cars, including EVs. In EVs, you might just have to push the pedal fractionally further, since initial regen braking engagement might fool you into thinking you are already using the brake pads.
• Pressing the brake pedal does NOT disengage the regen braking, just adds extra deceleration force on top of regen braking.
• There are conditions when regen braking is not engaged in EVs: when batteries are fully charged, when batteries are cold, or when you are ABS braking, or when traction control is engaged and trying to keep you on the road.
• Changing rotors is NOT expensive. In fact, rotors are usually cheaper ($25-$45) than a set of brake pads on most commuter cars (different economics apply to track and performance cars).

Generally they do it the quick way, put it on the brake rotor lathe and just skim a little bit off just like in the old days when you lathed rotors to smooth them out instead of replace them.

Please do yourself a favor and NEVER allow yourself to be taken for the "rotor resurfacing" or "rotor turning" offers from sleazy mechanics.
Why?

The ONLY time resurfacing the rotors makes engineering sense if when rotors are physically warped. As in, they measure different thickness across different points on the rotor, or are not symmetric in one of the planes. This hardly ever happens anymore, now that even cheap commuter car rotors are vented and don't overheat, and virtually all cars have switched from drum to disk pads.

In all other instances, what you might be experiencing is "shudder" is due to an uneven deposit of brake pad material on the surface of the rotor. Or uneven thickness of rust on the surface. To solve for both occurrences, just go through a quick brake pad bedding sequence, and you are good to go.

https://www.autozone.com/diy/brakes/bedding-brakes

Sleazy mechanics might still try to cash in on "you should pay me to resurface your rotors" routine. It's a scam. It costs them $0 in parts, and maxes out the labor charge for doing hardly anything of value. There is nothing wrong with your rotors if they are not perfectly shiny, or have groves worn into their surfaces. The pads have worn correspondingly to conform to those groves, and the friction area is the same as when rotors where brand new.
Even if done perfectly well, all resurfacing accomplishes is shortening the lifespan of your rotor, and removing the brake pad deposit from the surface. So then you have to go back and do pad bedding again.
Which is what you should have done in the first place anyway.

HTH,
a

 

[Funkworks]

Valid observation from the driver in the video - using friction brakes cleans the rotors. Duah.
Also some false statements that ought to be corrected, before someone takes them to heart: ...

Correct in many case I'm sure, but I'm not ready to agree that all your points apply to all EVs. Things seem to move quickly. I can barely keep up with the new models and specs, let alone how all their braking systems work. They surely have many things in common, but I'd leave room for some variations. Whether brake pads come in contact with rotors or not doesn't seem as important as whether material is rubbed off, whether regen turns on, and what's the deceleration rate. But I'm not about to look this up for each EV model.

 

[afadeev]

Correct in many case I'm sure, but I'm not ready to agree that all your points apply to all EVs. Things seem to move quickly. I can barely keep up with the new models and specs, let alone how all their braking systems work. They surely have many things in common, but I'd leave room for some variations. Whether brake pads come in contact with rotors or not doesn't seem as important as whether material is rubbed off, whether regen turns on, and what's the deceleration rate. But I'm not about to look this up for each EV model.

Fair enough.
I only speak based off personal experience from a non-statistically significant sample size of 3 EVs owned (still have Model 3 Performance), and maybe a 7-8 more EVs test driven over the past 10 years. Incidentally, I am going out to test drive a Lucid Air tomorrow, and will now pay extra attention to deceleration modes.

a

P.S.: I test drove Lucid Air GT and it is an awesome EV in many regards. But is not a car for me at this time. If I was shopping for a Model S - Lucid Air would be an upgrade. Alas, my vehicle fleet is split between smaller sedans and a larger SUV/Truck/Minivan, and neither Model S nor Lucid Air really fit my needs at the present time.

 

[Funkworks]

One would think I knew this would happen then I changed to my latest signature

 

[afadeev]

On what technology adoption curve do you think EVs will proceed?

The Rising Speed of Technological Adoption

See over 100 years of technological adoption on this interactive chart. It can explore everything from the washing machine to smartphones, with one click.

www.visualcapitalist.com

 

[Tyeeking]

The second graph really should have the y-axis scale set at 0 - 100% rather than 0 - 8%. The artificial steepness of the curve is misleading.

 

[Funkworks]

On what technology adoption curve do you think EVs will proceed?

The Rising Speed of Technological Adoption

See over 100 years of technological adoption on this interactive chart. It can explore everything from the washing machine to smartphones, with one click.

www.visualcapitalist.com

Most EV reports I get news from speak of an S-curve:

Electric vehicle "S-curve" puts global uptake in line with Paris goals

New report says “S-curve” trajectory of global electric vehicle adoption could see more than half of new passenger vehicle sales be electric by 2030.

thedriven.io

The second graph really should have y-axis scale set at 0 - 100% rather than 0 - 8%. The artificial steepness of the curve is misleading.

Graphs are usually scaled to the data they contain, otherwise, we wouldn't be able able to see the details. And pros do want to see the details, or be told when they're smoothed and how. The general rule is to choose a scale such that the data fills the page.



For a long time, I thought I'd have a Prius. Then the Corolla Hybrid. Ended up with the Ioniq PHEV. The new Prius is not bad, but 2 years too late for me.

Electric vehicle "S-curve" puts global uptake in line with Paris goals

New report says “S-curve” trajectory of global electric vehicle adoption could see more than half of new passenger vehicle sales be electric by 2030.

thedriven.io

 

[Tyeeking]

Graphs are usually scaled to the data they contain, otherwise, we wouldn't be able able to see the details. And pros do want to see the details, or be told when they're smoothed and how.

A table should be used to show detail. A graph is for context and artificially steepening the curve is not the proper context. The universe (context) of market share (what the graph claims to depict) is finite at 0-100%. It’s a completely different picture if the graph is presented in the context of the complete range of possible market share. Nothing would preclude the presenter from showing the details in an embedded table. We’ll agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Art Upton]

The curve all stops when the Electricity plants can't keep up charging them , why don't people thing about this?

 

[Art Upton]

Most EV reports I get news from speak of an S-curve:

Electric vehicle "S-curve" puts global uptake in line with Paris goals

New report says “S-curve” trajectory of global electric vehicle adoption could see more than half of new passenger vehicle sales be electric by 2030.

thedriven.io

Graphs are usually scaled to the data they contain, otherwise, we wouldn't be able able to see the details. And pros do want to see the details, or be told when they're smoothed and how. The general rule is to choose a scale such that the data fills the page.



For a long time, I thought I'd have a Prius. Then the Corolla Hybrid. Ended up with the Ioniq PHEV. The new Prius is not bad, but 2 years too late for me.

Electric vehicle "S-curve" puts global uptake in line with Paris goals

New report says “S-curve” trajectory of global electric vehicle adoption could see more than half of new passenger vehicle sales be electric by 2030.

thedriven.io

EU has an real problem generating electricity right now, since they shut down their nuke plants. Germany is opening coal mines to get more Juice to the wires.

there will not be be a Paris goal to be meet.

 

[Funkworks]

A table should be used to show detail. A graph is for context and artificially steepening the curve is not the proper context.

No one "artificially" steepened the curve. I explained already. You can make a table from that graph if you care to, but you wouldn't be able to with the graph you propose. It's not my opinion, it's highschool science class.

EU has an real problem generating electricity right now, since they shut down their nuke plants. Germany is opening coal mines to get more Juice to the wires.

I don't think German should have shut down nukes. Merkel got spooked by Fukushima but Tsunamis don't reach Germany.

there will not be be a Paris goal to be meet.

Don't go Paris on me in this thread, I picked the first article I found explaining the S-curve. S-curves was the topic there.

Here's more on technology adoption and the S-curve. A very interesting topic in itself, but not sure enough people on TRF would care for a thread:

Technology adoption life cycle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Art Upton]

Paris is a Fark, there I did it. At one point we said no way to it and should have stayed that way.

 

[Funkworks]

Toyota might be lagging with full EVs, but they're still a leader in hybrids:

Toyota Planning Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles With Over 124 Miles Of Electric Range

Toyota wants to reposition PHEVs as the "practical BEV" by boosting the electric-only range to more than 124 miles (200 kilometers).

www.motor1.com

 

[Art Upton]

Toyota might be lagging with full EVs, but they're still a leader in hybrids:

Toyota Planning Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles With Over 124 Miles Of Electric Range

Toyota wants to reposition PHEVs as the "practical BEV" by boosting the electric-only range to more than 124 miles (200 kilometers).

www.motor1.com

Hybrids in my research are better then plug in EVs. Not much drain on the Grid. I know many that have them. If they were not so rare and out of site priced I would have a Prius in place of my commuter car.

Generally for most people you never have to plug them in and drain the grid of much needed power else ware.

A few cents or dollars of Dino Fuel and regen breaking charge your battery.

 

[Tyeeking]

No one "artificially" steepened the curve. I explained already. You can make a table from that graph if you care to, but you wouldn't be able to with the graph you propose. It's not my opinion, it's highschool science class.

You don’t think shortening the y axis to exclude the full range of possible market share does not artificially steepen the curve? Wow. You may want to crack those high school science class textbooks open again.

 

[afadeev]

The curve all stops when the Electricity plants can't keep up charging them , why don't people thing about this?

Because there is zero evidence pointing at that being a legitimate concern?


If you have data that suggests otherwise, please do share!

a

P.S.: US energy consumption has held steady, and partially declined from the highes in early 2000's: https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/monthly/pdf/sec2_4.pdf

 

[kuririn]

The curve all stops when the Electricity plants can't keep up charging them , why don't people thing about this?

"They" have thought about it.
In the 60's few homes had A/C.
Many more homes now have it.
The utilities increased capacity to handle the increased demand.
Also TOU (Time of Use) and smart charging means that not everyone will be charging their EVS at the same time or during peak load hours.
Example: You come home from work and plug in your EV into your home charger. It does not immediately start charging. It waits for the programmed start time which can be during the start of the off peak rate time that your utility has set. Here off peak is 9 PM to 7 AM. The electric rate is less than half that of the priority peak rates.

EU has an real problem generating electricity right now, since they shut down their nuke plants. Germany is opening coal mines to get more Juice to the wires.

The problem is not a shortage of production capacity, it's a shortage of cheap fuel.
You can thank the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the sanctions against Russian coal, gas, crude oil and refined oil products for that.
But you are right, the grid needs to be modernized.
That is gradually occurring as we speak.

 

[Cape Byron]

Different countries are having different issues with regards to large scale EV acceptance and rollout.

This will not be a popular video. Motoring journalist John Cadogan is actually an EV advocate, but maintains that at present the average Australian cannot do the 'normal' Australian car things with an EV.

Language warning. And start at 3:22 if you want to avoid product placement.

 

[kuririn]

Different countries are having different issues with regards to large scale EV acceptance and rollout.

This will not be a popular video. Motoring journalist John Cadogan is actually an EV advocate, but maintains that at present the average Australian cannot do the 'normal' Australian car things with an EV.

Language warning. And start at 3:22 if you want to avoid product placement.

He brings up some valid points.
Regarding tossing a battery pack after a minor collision because a few cells MIGHT be damaged, that's just stupid. Gluing the cells in and making them non-replaceable is moronic. Make the individual cells removable and replaceable if damaged.
Make right to repair a national mandate. Manufacturers keeping that information only available to their dealers is due to only one thing: Greed!
Massachusetts passed a right to repair law in 2020. The AG only started enforcing it a few days ago (June 1).
If you address those two issues, then insurance premiums will come down.
As for recycling batteries, I suppose there aren't more companies doing that because of the small number of EVs on the road (relatively speaking) at the moment. Hopefully that will change when the numbers start burgeoning.
Good ol' capitalism.
Every new industry goes through teething pains.
But the problems don't seem insurmountable.
They will find a way.

 

[Cape Byron]

Make right to repair a national mandate. Manufacturers keeping that information only available to their dealers is due to only one thing: Greed!

Right to Repair is a growing thing, as it should be. <Insert sarcastic remark about Apple here>

If Australia rolls out EVs as the government wants us to, it will take, at current estimates, 15+ years of frantic work to bring the grid up to spec just in metropolitan areas. Those of us out in the sticks will lose out. Not that I mind - every journey to a city makes me even more sure I made the right decision getting out of one.

Cadogan has a lot to say about the auto industry in Oz, and not much of it is good.

 

[afadeev]

If Australia rolls out EVs as the government wants us to, it will take, at current estimates, 15+ years of frantic work to bring the grid up to spec just in metropolitan areas.

Do you mind sharing the logic behind the conclusion that "15+ years of work to bring the grid up to spec" is needed?
I hear that argument, now and again, usually from politicians with questionable agendas (present company excluded).
But never the analysis that underpins that conclusion. Do you have anything you could share?>

This will not be a popular video. Motoring journalist John Cadogan is actually an EV advocate, but maintains that at present the average Australian cannot do the 'normal' Australian car things with an EV.

The video is fine. There are some Oz-specific peculiarities and funky dark humor, which are fairly entertaining.
The only thing I don't appreciate is presenter's constant appeal to government regulation to solve all the problems.
He is big on recycling of EV batteries, which would be nice. But is likely nowhere near to being economically viable, just like 90+% of recycling efforts for all other materials, other than paper products. You can't legislate uneconomic activity, only subsidize it.

How Useful Is Recycling, Really?

Among all possible climate actions, recycling ranks pretty low in its impact.

www.theatlantic.com

And yeah, my Model 3 insurance is ~40% higher than a nicer and more expansive German car that is parked next to it. For all the reasons that were discussed in the video.

Cadogan has a lot to say about the auto industry in Oz, and not much of it is good.

You have auto industry left in Oz?

 

[Greg Furtman]

I think that with some upgrades to the grid, mostly software, that EVs will make the grid more stable. Most EV owners charge their car at night during off peak hours. And rarely does one drive more than 100 miles a day. So the car is half charged when plugged in. If the grid needs more juice during peak hours those EVs can be used to balance the grid. Then later that night when the peak is of the owner can charge his car. Kinda a win-win to me.

Green Mountain Power, a power company in Vermont is helping home owning customers to buy battery banks for their homes even if they don't have solar panels. Green Power understands a distributed grid and by doing this they can even out their grid without needing peaker power.

 

[Cape Byron]

Do you mind sharing the logic behind the conclusion that "15+ years of work to bring the grid up to spec" is needed?
I hear that argument, now and again, usually from politicians with questionable agendas (present company excluded).
But never the analysis that underpins that conclusion. Do you have anything you could share?

I believe it was actually another of Cadogan's videos. I'll chase that up.

The Insite webpage states:

"Most of these studies centre around the central problem of EV charging. It takes a lot of electricity to charge a standard EV – something in the ballpark of 6-8 kWh (kilowatt hours) for a standard 40 kilometre trip, or the equivalent of a small household’s daily energy needs. Australia’s public charging infrastructure is sorely inadequate for its future requirements, meaning most EV owners will be charging their vehicles at home."

That will be difficult when some here will be commuting in excess of the range of their vehicle on a two-way trip. Remember some Australians live a two hour drive from their place of work. That means charging at work.

Again from Insite:

"According to the Electric Vehicle Council in 2021, Australia had just 450 public fast chargers and 2530 standard chargers. But RACE for 2030 predicts we will need one charger at every home with an EV; at least one for every multi-unit dwelling; roughly 200,000 at Aussie workplaces; and an extra 15,000 public fast chargers by 2030."

Hard to imagine 200, 000 chargers being built at workplaces in seven years. The metropolitan grid is woefully unprepared for so many.

Can the power grid handle the transition to electric cars? | IPWEA

insite.ipwea.org

And yeah, my Model 3 insurance is ~40% higher than a nicer and more expansive German car that is parked next to it. For all the reasons that were discussed in the video.

If you live in a block of units with your EV parked near others be prepared for your home insurance to skyrocket. This has been discussed openly by the insurance lobby here in Oz.

You have auto industry left in Oz?

No. We have no industry here anymore.

 

[bjphoenix]

at current estimates, 15+ years of frantic work to bring the grid up to spec just in metropolitan areas.

15 years might or might not be accurate but it is probably close, I don't know what "frantic" means.

If your local electric company decided they would forge ahead with building a new powerplant, what would they do? They would have to find property, do environmental studies, things like that. Once that was done they would have to hire engineers and architects to start design, they would have to order turbines and generators, things like that. Then they could start actual construction which would take many years. Then testing and certification before they flip the switch.

 

[Cape Byron]

15 years might or might not be accurate but it is probably close, I don't know what "frantic" means.

Perhaps 'frantic' was the wrong word here. I think it would need to be made a national priority which, given the division between states, is not likely to happen any time soon.

If your local electric company decided they would forge ahead with building a new powerplant, what would they do?

Australia is, by and large, opposed to nuclear power. Industry pressure from the coal mining industry means most (>50%) of Australia's power generation will be 'dirty' for a long while yet. What's the point of an EV if it's powered by coal?

 

[afadeev]

What's the point of an EV if it's powered by coal?

• From tree-hugging perspective - none. Whatsoever.
• From joy of driving perspective - still a lot. Instant torque and 0-60 times that would otherwise only be experienced in cars priced above $1/4 Mil are highly entertaining. If you are a car guy, this will reel you in. In no time!
• From variable cost perspective - I pay 1/5th (21.3% to be exact) of the cost per mile when driving electric vs. ICE drivetrain. That saves me ~$2,200/year.
  • Last one assumes I charge at home or at work. If you use Tesla SuperChargers, their electricity is priced at parity to gasoline on per-mile basis.

YMMV,
a

 

[Cape Byron]

From tree-hugging perspective - none. Whatsoever.

Exactly.

The reduction in pollution from making every passenger car on the road an EV is 5/8 of bugger all. The reduction in pollution from making every mass transit vehicle and freight carrier on the road is pretty damned substantial. Oh, and electric rail freight is a real winner. Get the trucks off the roads would be great, but our rail infrastructure is pretty poor. Up here we have a rail network that hasn't seen a train in 15 years. Go figure.

Purely my opinion. FWIW.

 

[jderimig]

I am intrigued by Toyota's announcement (tease) of a 600 mile+ entry level EV. My personal requirement is 550 mile range at highway speed of 78mph. I drive from Cleveland to Madison WI with no stops frequently. That is my personal requirement.

Toyota touts 745-mile range, 10-minute charge for solid-state battery

Toyota says it has discovered a “technological breakthrough” in its solid-state battery research.

www.motorauthority.com

 

[davel]

I am intrigued by Toyota's announcement (tease) of a 600 mile+ entry level EV. My personal requirement is 550 mile range at highway speed of 78mph. I drive from Cleveland to Madison WI with no stops frequently. That is my personal requirement.

Just don't use the heater in the winter or the air conditioning in the summer.

 

[jderimig]

Just don't use the heater in the winter or the air conditioning in the summer.

My requirement will be 78mph, climate controlled to 72F four seasons, 520 mile range. I will wait for the technology to get to that point.