ICEs and EVs

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That's because the EV car market product model is wrong.
Well no, the "EV car market product" is not "wrong". You are lumping EVs together as one product, and dismissing very smart and informed people as categorically "wrong". From there on, it's hard to take what you say seriously.

A commuter EV product which will serve a large market need could be viable with a 50 mile battery which would lend itself to a battery swapping model. The product would be cheaper, lighter, would get longer tire life and cost of production (lower cost frame, motors, suspension and braking components) would be cheaper with a much lower manufacturing carbon footprint in case any one cares about that.
I would agree with this part, but EV critics keep saying "range" range" "range". My own PHEV seems to fit in perfectly here. A 25 mile range with the battery, and an ICE to take over when needed. But many are still choosing ICEs over PHEVs. Maybe there's a problem in communicating the benefits of PHEVs? Maybe there still aren't enough batteries? Maybe car makers want to make O&G happy? Who knows :questions:
 
Well no, the "EV car market product" is not "wrong". You are lumping EVs together as one product, and dismissing very smart and informed people as categorically "wrong". From there on, it's hard to take what you say seriously.


I would agree with this part, but EV critics keep saying "range" range" "range". My own PHEV seems to fit in perfectly here. A 25 mile range with the battery, and an ICE to take over when needed. But many are still choosing ICEs over PHEVs. Maybe there's a problem in communicating the benefits of PHEVs? Maybe there still aren't enough batteries? Maybe car makers want to make O&G happy? Who knows :questions:
Respectfully my quote is the "EV product MODEL" is wrong. By model I mean the portfolio model. Chill.
 
A Netflix subscription is $20/month. Nobody is going to be changing out your EV batteries 6 times a month for a lousy $12/month. LOL
True. It's $12/month in China.
In Norway when they recently first opened a swapping station it's a higher base rate and there's a charge per Kwh as well.
In the US it would undoubtedly be higher.
6 swaps is the equivalent of 1500 miles range.
If you get 20 mpg in your ICE that would be 75 gallons of gasoline used per month.
At $5 per gallon that would be $375.
So a $100 monthly subscription would still be attractive.
 
True. It's $12/month in China.
In Norway when they recently first opened a swapping station it's a higher base rate and there's a charge per Kwh as well.
In the US it would undoubtedly be higher.
6 swaps is the equivalent of 1500 miles range.
If you get 20 mpg in your ICE that would be 75 gallons of gasoline used per month.
At $5 per gallon that would be $375.
So a $100 monthly subscription would still be attractive.
Yea except I paid $2.85 for a gallon of gas yesterday, not $5 and get closer to 30 mpg than 20 mpg.
 
Yea except I paid $2.85 for a gallon of gas yesterday, not $5 and get closer to 30 mpg than 20 mpg.
The dude lives in Hawaii, perhaps he’s talking about his personal case here. Besides, 2.85 @ 30mpg is still over 100$.

I charged for free today, most other days too. Didn’t even have to take my battery out or go to a gas station. :)
 
The dude lives in Hawaii, perhaps he’s talking about his personal case here. Besides, 2.85 @ 30mpg is still over 100$.

I charged for free today, most other days too. Didn’t even have to take my battery out or go to a gas station. :)
Yep, and I was talking about my personal ICE experience and now you’re taking about your personal “free” charging experience. 😉
 
Yea except I paid $2.85 for a gallon of gas yesterday, not $5 and get closer to 30 mpg than 20 mpg.
So 1500 miles per month would still cost you $142 and change in gas.
So you would save nearly 30% in fuel costs with a $100/month subscription.
The national average price per gallon of gasoline is $3.49 this week.
The 2020 national average mpg for US cars, light trucks and SUVs is 25.4 mpg.
So the average American will save even more.
 
Yep, and I was talking about my personal ICE experience and now you’re taking about your personal “free” charging experience. 😉
That was the point I was making, yes. No need for “free”, unless you’re paying “2.85$”. Congrats on having probably the lowest priced gas in the US, though. :)
 
So 1500 miles per month would still cost you $142 and change in gas.
So you would save nearly 30% in fuel costs with a $100/month subscription.
The national average price per gallon of gasoline is $3.49 this week.
The 2020 national average mpg for US cars, light trucks and SUVs is 25.4 mpg.
So the average American will save even more.
Your whole premise is based on a model that doesn’t exist in the US and a pricing that you literally picked out of the air. You don’t honestly believe that someone is ever going to swap out your EV batteries 6 times per month for only $100 do you?
 
That was the point I was making, yes. No need for “free”, unless you’re paying “2.85$”. Congrats on having probably the lowest priced gas in the US, though. :)
Yep. Low state and local fuel taxes coupled with proximity to refineries equals consistently the lowest gas prices in the country. We also have low electric rates at 8.7 cents/kwh regardless of the time of day or usage.
 
You don’t honestly believe that someone is ever going to swap out your EV batteries 6 times per month for only $100 do you?
Why not? And there is no "someone". It's fully automated. Read the links first before posting.
The subscription in Norway is charged per swap, which makes more sense to me than a flat rate.
It's 10 euros per swap, or about $10.80 US. So six swaps would be less than $65, plus 20 cents per kwh.
 
As far as I know, that usually dissapears with age.


If it's second-hand, try to get what was the original range, the present range, and see if it's along what's expected for the same model year and mileage. Also try to get what's the range drop in winter. Those would be my first questions. Average values should be available online somewhere for you to compare.


I would not hold my breath for a network of battery swapping stations to be built.

We did the test drive today and noted something very odd (to me at least). Given that my high hearing is typical for a middle-age man (i.e. 8-10k max), I didn't hear anything abnormal. However, as I was focused on trying to listen for something odd, I noted that my ears popped multiple times, like when you drive through the mountains, not as hard as it happens when you fly on a plane. I just figured it was me and maybe just sinus issue or something but about 2 minutes later, my wife said 'Do you ears keep popping?' Crazy.

So, for whatever reason, the Tesla Model Y we drove today made both of us feel our ears pop multiple times and we were driving in a regular area where we usually drive (i.e. local, not an out of town test drive). I have no good explanation, as ears popping would typically be associated with a pressure change, not a noise, I assume.

So, while the car was very interesting, we only did a 10 minute test drive, not the full half hour they allowed. Within the first few minutes, she simply said 'nope, not going to work', since the whole reason we are getting rid of her current CRV is based on it giving her headaches and she didn't like the ear pops.

I have mixed feelings about the whole experience. The vehicle was very innovative, but now that I'm getting older, I don't like innovative as much as I used to. At one point, she asked me to figure out if it had cruise control (which it obviously does have), but I couldn't figure it out quickly and I thought that was lame. Again, I'm 100% sure it has super cool cruise control, but I don't want to google how to drive a car and typical cars are similar enough that you can figure out cruise control when picking up a rental and that was not the case here. Just an example, but it was a general feel that so much happens on the touch screen (that was gigantic and high quality) that I just didn't like it. I like buttons, switches and things that stay in the same place. I prefer a keyboard to a phone. I like to be able to, with my eyes closed, know what thing I'm about to do by knowing where the thing is and what it feels like. Obviously you don't drive like that, but back in the day, you knew how to hit the big preset slider on a radio to tune to different radio stations. You never had to take your eyes off the road, you just went to the first slider, then slid your hand over to the third, pushed it and the radio station was what you expected. All the modern touchscreen stuff in cars seems too distracting for my personal tastes.

Anyway, since I did actually go for a test ride (she drove the whole time, as she was the target buyer, not me and if she didn't like it, why should I even try it as we weren't going to buy it), I figured I'd follow up with my experience. If there were zero hearing issues/headache issues, I think we'd be trying to figure out how to budget to buy it, as the form, fit, finish and quality was seemingly awesome and the acceleration, even on 'chill' mode was impressive. My personal preference would be for it to feel a bit more conventional inside and to not rely so much on the touchscreen/cellphone interface, but I am a dinosaur and accept that the world is moving that way, even if it isn't my preference.

She is going to test drive a few other EV's while I'm out of town and it will be interesting to see if she has the ear popping thing. Has anyone else experienced that? The salesman said some people have mentioned it, but I think he was just being a salesman and agreeing that the customer is right, not that he really had ever heard that.

Sandy.
 
Yep. Low state and local fuel taxes coupled with proximity to refineries equals consistently the lowest gas prices in the country. We also have low electric rates at 8.7 cents/kwh regardless of the time of day or usage.
Neat, still 8.7 cents/kWh more than I pay to charge, though. :) I’d rather have the cheap gas… refueling the Mini when we go on road trips is always a bit of a shock.
 
We did the test drive today and noted something very odd (to me at least). Given that my high hearing is typical for a middle-age man (i.e. 8-10k max), I didn't hear anything abnormal. However, as I was focused on trying to listen for something odd, I noted that my ears popped multiple times, like when you drive through the mountains, not as hard as it happens when you fly on a plane. I just figured it was me and maybe just sinus issue or something but about 2 minutes later, my wife said 'Do you ears keep popping?' Crazy.

So, for whatever reason, the Tesla Model Y we drove today made both of us feel our ears pop multiple times and we were driving in a regular area where we usually drive (i.e. local, not an out of town test drive). I have no good explanation, as ears popping would typically be associated with a pressure change, not a noise, I assume.

So, while the car was very interesting, we only did a 10 minute test drive, not the full half hour they allowed. Within the first few minutes, she simply said 'nope, not going to work', since the whole reason we are getting rid of her current CRV is based on it giving her headaches and she didn't like the ear pops.

I have mixed feelings about the whole experience. The vehicle was very innovative, but now that I'm getting older, I don't like innovative as much as I used to. At one point, she asked me to figure out if it had cruise control (which it obviously does have), but I couldn't figure it out quickly and I thought that was lame. Again, I'm 100% sure it has super cool cruise control, but I don't want to google how to drive a car and typical cars are similar enough that you can figure out cruise control when picking up a rental and that was not the case here. Just an example, but it was a general feel that so much happens on the touch screen (that was gigantic and high quality) that I just didn't like it. I like buttons, switches and things that stay in the same place. I prefer a keyboard to a phone. I like to be able to, with my eyes closed, know what thing I'm about to do by knowing where the thing is and what it feels like. Obviously you don't drive like that, but back in the day, you knew how to hit the big preset slider on a radio to tune to different radio stations. You never had to take your eyes off the road, you just went to the first slider, then slid your hand over to the third, pushed it and the radio station was what you expected. All the modern touchscreen stuff in cars seems too distracting for my personal tastes.

Anyway, since I did actually go for a test ride (she drove the whole time, as she was the target buyer, not me and if she didn't like it, why should I even try it as we weren't going to buy it), I figured I'd follow up with my experience. If there were zero hearing issues/headache issues, I think we'd be trying to figure out how to budget to buy it, as the form, fit, finish and quality was seemingly awesome and the acceleration, even on 'chill' mode was impressive. My personal preference would be for it to feel a bit more conventional inside and to not rely so much on the touchscreen/cellphone interface, but I am a dinosaur and accept that the world is moving that way, even if it isn't my preference.

She is going to test drive a few other EV's while I'm out of town and it will be interesting to see if she has the ear popping thing. Has anyone else experienced that? The salesman said some people have mentioned it, but I think he was just being a salesman and agreeing that the customer is right, not that he really had ever heard that.

Sandy.
You got me curious - apparently this really is an issue with the model.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/ear-pain-pressure-help.205783/
 
Glad it was informative. I haven't watched all of it yet, but the Youtube video from the reddit post seems to be pretty interesting as well.
 
That's because the EV car market product model is wrong. A commuter EV product which will serve a large market need could be viable with a 50 mile battery which would lend itself to a battery swapping model. The product would be cheaper, lighter, would get longer tire life and cost of production (lower cost frame, motors, suspension and braking components) would be cheaper with a much lower manufacturing carbon footprint in case any one cares about that.
Pssst. That car is called a Nissan Leaf.
 
subscribe to a monthly battery swapping service
I had the idea some time back that battery swapping might be viable for long term truckers. They could pull up to a truck stop, slide out the dead battery, slide in the charged battery, and get back on the road.
 
"“By the end of the year 2024 no ICE cars will be offered at Lamborghini,” Winkelmann said. That is, no cars with an internal combustion engine only, as opposed to a plug-in hybrid. He said as new models are introduced, they will get plug-in hybrid systems. In addition, Lamborghini will start introducing battery electric vehicles in 2028, he said."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimhen...t-up-plug-in-hybrids-and-evs/?sh=3db3169f171d
 
Wow, Scotty Kilmer being positive….a pleasant surprise. I have really mixed feelings about the idea of a single-rotor range extender and this from a fellow who has owned (and still misses) two rotary cars (an Rx-2 sedan and an Rx-4 wagon) and who still does business occasionally with a mechanic who used to build racing rotaries (though I’m sure he’ll retire soon). It will be interesting to see if this vehicle, or the bigger version I’ve heard about, will be available here.
 
I am surprised that auto makers haven't thought of collision repairability with EV's.

I wouldn't say they "haven't thought" of it. I'd say it wasn't chosen as a priority.

I can't speak for all auto makers, but Tesla (which I follow more closely because they're more entertaining) announced structural battery packs during 2020's "Battery Day". Ease of manufacture and safety (car rigidity) were chosen as priorities. In their vision, collisions are avoided altogether (by constantly updating "autopilot" and "full self-driving"), batteries last longer than the rest of the car, and they go straight to the grinder at the end. Statistically, Teslas are involved in less collisions, and drive well beyond the point they have too to offset factory emissions. It will be interesting to see how insurance comapnies adapt.

FWIW, Tesla sells their own: https://www.tesla.com/insurance
 
In their vision, collisions are avoided altogether (by constantly updating "autopilot" and "full self-driving"),
All my collisions were cars running into me. By definition, ~50% of all accidents are caused by the other guy.
 
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