I Love Chemically-Fueled, Vertical Take-Off Rockets But Doesn't Humanity Need a More Elegant Way to Get into Space?

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SpinLaunch is fascinating but could this really be scaled up to handle bigger payloads and orbital launches?
https://www.space.com/spinlaunch-nasa-suborbital-test-flight-agreement

Spin launch is a joke. I could see it being useful for throwing things off the moon, but I'm 99.99% sure it will never work on Earth. The atmosphere will act like a brick wall to anything moving at hypersonic speed coming out of their evacuated centrifuge.

Before anyone says "b-but successful test!" the projectile was pretty clearly not stable and tumbling when it broke through the membrane into the atmosphere.

There is also the issue of the massive g-forces that centrifuge will produce. That environment is not good for delicate satellites.
 
Giant, lighter than air, rocket launch platforms floating near the edge of space. Fascinating idea.

—- snip —-
Perhaps the final frontier for airships is space travel, but that is a real possibility. California firm JP Aerospace aims to use airships to carry rockets to the edge of space, where they will gradually accelerate into orbit.
—- snip —-

https://www.discovery.com/science/airships
Just how high can a lighter than air craft go? 90,000 feet?

http://www.jpaerospace.com/ATO/ATO.html
 
Giant, lighter than air, rocket launch platforms floating near the edge of space. Fascinating idea.

—- snip —-
Perhaps the final frontier for airships is space travel, but that is a real possibility. California firm JP Aerospace aims to use airships to carry rockets to the edge of space, where they will gradually accelerate into orbit.
—- snip —-

https://www.discovery.com/science/airships
Just how high can a lighter than air craft go? 90,000 feet?

http://www.jpaerospace.com/ATO/ATO.html
Felix Baumgartner’s jump in 2012 was from 127,851 ft.
 
Extremely skeptical about this airship thing. Calling even 127,851 feet "the edge of space" is a bit generous. Even if we go by the lower American boundary to space, 50 miles is 264,000 feet. Felix Baumgartner was less than halfway there.
People don’t really grasp how huge the atmosphere is or how thin it gets (and stays).
 
It doesn't really matter how close to some arbitrary "edge of space" the balloons can get. The key really crazy idea here is that phrase "gradually accelerate into orbit". They seem to be saying they believe that there's some trajectory from balloon altitude at zero velocity to orbital altitude and velocity where every point along the path has some combination of buoyancy, lift, and centripetal force that's in balance and also survivable in terms of heat load and whatnot. So the balloon ship can work its way along that trajectory at its leisure using low thrust engines.

That's absolutely nuts, but I can't prove it's wrong. If it's actually possible it changes everything about how to get into orbit.

I'd feel a lot better about their chances if the website had some kind of paper or something showing how the math works out.
 
[I am re-posting this musing here, as it was starting to get very far afield of the original message thread it was in...]

In the other thread, we were discussing whether Virgin Galactic's "Spaceship 2" is really a spaceship because it does not seem to ever get to the "Karman line" that most experts agree is where Earth's atmosphere ends and "space" begins.

While I admit that some might just dismiss Spaceship 2 as just a really high flying "rocket plane", still, I like the idea of the air-launched "spaceship", a la "Spaceship 2" and the old, venerable, X-15 rocket plane.

It seems to make sense: You make a really big, high-flying, but still air-breathing aircraft. Then you launch or drop a rocket powered "spaceship" from the aircraft. Maybe the spaceship is both "scramjet" and "rocket" craft, or some sort of hybrid. Wouldn't that be the most economical, most elegant way to get into space? Here we are in 2021, 60 years after Yuri Gagarin became the first human in space, and we are still, basically, doing this the same way: We point a large, chemically fueled rocket at the sky and then we light that roman candle. Then the rocket goes (essentially) straight up, vertically, against the gravity well of Earth, expending enormous amounts of fuel in the process. Ultimately, a fairly small payload on the top of the rocket gets into space.

I love rockets! I am a BAR model rocketeer. But as a space enthusiast, I think we ("we" being humanity) need a more elegant way to get into space. Space elevator? Some sort of rail gun that magnetically hurls a payload into space? An air-launched spaceship? A horizontal take off craft that begins as an air-breathing jet airplane, turns into some sort of hybrid jet/rocket craft at some point, and then finally becomes a pure rocket craft that enters space?
No. When you get down to it all is big boys with big toys. The attraction of a big chemical rocket thundering off the pad, muscling it's way upward, expressing all there is to love about the thrust, fire, smoke, and the noise.
Noise so intense they have to flood the exhaust pit with swimming pools full of water every second to suppress the sound vibrations. Otherwise the rocket itself would vibrate apart.
What's not to love about that?
 
It doesn't really matter how close to some arbitrary "edge of space" the balloons can get. The key really crazy idea here is that phrase "gradually accelerate into orbit". They seem to be saying they believe that there's some trajectory from balloon altitude at zero velocity to orbital altitude and velocity where every point along the path has some combination of buoyancy, lift, and centripetal force that's in balance and also survivable in terms of heat load and whatnot. So the balloon ship can work its way along that trajectory at its leisure using low thrust engines.

That's absolutely nuts, but I can't prove it's wrong. If it's actually possible it changes everything about how to get into orbit.

I'd feel a lot better about their chances if the website had some kind of paper or something showing how the math works out.
Something like this was posted in TRF years ago. It would be difficult to find now. I am kinda thinking that if this is one of those schemes that we are still talking about and there isn't noticeable progress, there may be no there there. I definitely agree that we would like to see the mathematical analysis on how feasible this is. Even though the air is rarefied at the high altitudes, there can still be lift on a vehicle, but there will be drag, also. So, the analysis would have to show the thrust can provide enough lift and overcome drag to lift the vehicle to a practical orbital altitude and velocity.
 
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Here's the thing about vertically launched, chemically fueled rockets. Unless you've got some other way of pushing a few tons into orbit, this seems to be the best way given the technology we've currently got. I mean, if you watch these launches, you'll notice they are going supersonic less than 90 seconds from leaving the pad. Very little gets to that kind of speed so quickly, and remember that to even get anywhere near orbital velocities you're talking about at least 17,000 mph.

There's that spin-launch system they are trying out, but, unless you're willing to try nuclear powered rockets, it just takes a massive amount of energy to push against Earth's gravity well. And for that, all we've got currently is controlled explosive fuel. While I would love for some newfangled physics to come about, so far, none of it has become technically feasible.
 
Unfortunately, as predicted, Reaction Engines has gone bankrupt and is most likely dead, along with the Skylon and SABRE.

https://spacenews.com/spaceplane-developer-reaction-engines-goes-bankrupt/

It's been an awfully long time since we heard anything from SpinLaunch, too.
don't worry the investor scammers are still out there like a pneumatic orbital gun, I love how they just ignore what happens once it leaves the gun, and they plan on building this thing at sea level.
 
I do agree that we need a better way to get to space, but the solution is not some fancy device that cleverly gets around the laws of physics (those never work). a 2 stage rocket is the best solution according to experience and math, the problems are that you have to throw away parts of it, this is not fixed still as falcon 9 only gets the first stage back starship will fix it but it's almost the biggest a land based rocket can practically be. I feel that the best way to transport stuff to space would be a NTP based system as a second stage on a chemical booster, the long start up time is a solvable problem because a good chunk can be done while under power of the first stage and shutdown doesn't matter because stopping the thrust is one of the first steps and we have time to stop the reaction after.
 
I feel that the best way to transport stuff to space would be a NTP based system as a second stage on a chemical booster, the long start up time is a solvable problem because a good chunk can be done while under power of the first stage and shutdown doesn't matter because stopping the thrust is one of the first steps and we have time to stop the reaction after.
Unless you know otherwise, I'm not sure using NTP within the atmosphere at all is a great idea. It would probably be best to relegate it to in-space use only. I'm not an expert in NTP though and could be wrong about a hazard existing.
 
Unless you know otherwise, I'm not sure using NTP within the atmosphere at all is a great idea. It would probably be best to relegate it to in-space use only. I'm not an expert in NTP though and could be wrong about a hazard existing.
Considering our upper atmosphere *already* absorbs/blocks/deals-with a considerable amount of radiation, NTP in the upper atmosphere might not be that bad. Yeah, there would have to be a study done. But consider that coal-fed electric plants put WAY MORE radiation into the atmosphere and they are at "ground level" compared to a second stage nuclear-driven rocket.
I'm not worried, why are you?
It seems to me that Americans are paranoid regarding anything "nuclear"; but if appropriate safety protocols are followed, it's as safe as any other form of power. This is like the people with their hair-on-fire because when a Tesla is involved in a crash that totals the car, OMG, the battery catches on fire!!!!!!!!! Meanwhile, people drive around with 30 gallons of highly explosive gasoline in their not-crash-tested SUV and don't give it a second thought.
 
Unless you know otherwise, I'm not sure using NTP within the atmosphere at all is a great idea. It would probably be best to relegate it to in-space use only. I'm not an expert in NTP though and could be wrong about a hazard existing.
it's not on the top 10 best things to do but riding a exploding bomb also isn't on that list, the exhaust is just hot hydrogen no significant radioactive components. it can't explode by itself so the only 2 things that can happen are

1 stage 1 has a RUD in this case the fuel rods will be safe and fall back like RTGs

2 stage 2 has a failure, most nuclear accidents are caused by long run times/ humans not paying attention so with the short run times and constant monitoring of a rocket launch I feel that that a failure in a safety critical system is unlikely and if anything does go wrong we stop the burn and fall to earth a redo of #1

Considering our upper atmosphere *already* absorbs/blocks/deals-with a considerable amount of radiation, NTP in the upper atmosphere might not be that bad. Yeah, there would have to be a study done. But consider that coal-fed electric plants put WAY MORE radiation into the atmosphere and they are at "ground level" compared to a second stage nuclear-driven rocket.
I'm not worried, why are you?
It seems to me that Americans are paranoid regarding anything "nuclear"; but if appropriate safety protocols are followed, it's as safe as any other form of power. This is like the people with their hair-on-fire because when a Tesla is involved in a crash that totals the car, OMG, the battery catches on fire!!!!!!!!! Meanwhile, people drive around with 30 gallons of highly explosive gasoline in their not-crash-tested SUV and don't give it a second thought.
my feelings exactly, don't dismiss the danger but don't live in fear of it.
 
Considering our upper atmosphere *already* absorbs/blocks/deals-with a considerable amount of radiation, NTP in the upper atmosphere might not be that bad. Yeah, there would have to be a study done. But consider that coal-fed electric plants put WAY MORE radiation into the atmosphere and they are at "ground level" compared to a second stage nuclear-driven rocket.
I'm not worried, why are you?
It seems to me that Americans are paranoid regarding anything "nuclear"; but if appropriate safety protocols are followed, it's as safe as any other form of power. This is like the people with their hair-on-fire because when a Tesla is involved in a crash that totals the car, OMG, the battery catches on fire!!!!!!!!! Meanwhile, people drive around with 30 gallons of highly explosive gasoline in their not-crash-tested SUV and don't give it a second thought.
The upper atmosphere blocks radiation, yes, but I was under the impression that actual heavy metal atoms would be included in the exhaust. Apparently I'm wrong about that though according to the post above this one.

I'm pro-nuclear power too and have the same gripe about paranoia over the word "nuclear."
 
The upper atmosphere blocks radiation, yes, but I was under the impression that actual heavy metal atoms would be included in the exhaust. Apparently I'm wrong about that though according to the post above this one.

I'm pro-nuclear power too and have the same gripe about paranoia over the word "nuclear."
I should note that only applies for the first burn, as it gets old it will produce more of them and just generally be more radioactive, but that takes a bit of time so you'd need to do quite a bit of tugboating to reach a unsafe level for on orbit ops, then I'd move it to a junk orbit in the van allen belt.
 
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I should d note that only applies for the first burn, as it gets old it will produce more of them and just generally be more radioactive, but that takes a bit of time so you'd need to do quite a bit of tugboating to reach a unsafe level for on orbit ops, then I'd move it to a junk orbit in the van allen belt.
Thanks for clarifying. I knew I had heard that somewhere.
 
I do agree that we need a better way to get to space, but the solution is not some fancy device that cleverly gets around the laws of physics (those never work). a 2 stage rocket is the best solution according to experience and math, the problems are that you have to throw away parts of it, this is not fixed still as falcon 9 only gets the first stage back starship will fix it but it's almost the biggest a land based rocket can practically be. I feel that the best way to transport stuff to space would be a NTP based system as a second stage on a chemical booster, the long start up time is a solvable problem because a good chunk can be done while under power of the first stage and shutdown doesn't matter because stopping the thrust is one of the first steps and we have time to stop the reaction after.
The rendezvous in orbit always seemed the best idea to me. Why not just use lots of small rockets, especially if they are reusable, and then assemble whatever you want in orbit? Like building the Alpha Centauri spaceship to win a “technology” victory in Civilization
 
The rendezvous in orbit always seemed the best idea to me. Why not just use lots of small rockets, especially if they are reusable, and then assemble whatever you want in orbit? Like building the Alpha Centauri spaceship to win a “technology” victory in Civilization
that is the best idea for any thing to big to do in one go, but I'd probably be cheaper to minimize it.
 
"Nova" this evening is actually doing a segment on SpinLaunch as one of the featured technologies on their "Building Stuff: Boost It" episode (at least here in Williamsburg on WHRO/PBS)
Interesting. Payloads have to be able to withstand 10,000 g's in the centrifuge! This from a 2022 article on space.com. Gee, that's a lot of g's. Guess I'll pass on riding that beauty!
 
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Extremely skeptical about this airship thing. Calling even 127,851 feet "the edge of space" is a bit generous. Even if we go by the lower American boundary to space, 50 miles is 264,000 feet. Felix Baumgartner was less than halfway there.
It still gets you above more than 99 percent of the atmosphere. Atmospheric drag is significant, particularly for small rockets. Maybe not as much for the behemoths like the Starship. Let's say you have a 1 foot diameter rocket going Mach 5 with a drag coefficient of 0.3. The drag will be about 30,000 lbs. (see below about the orbital gun). So rockets launched from sea level don't accelerate as hard as they might until they get some of the atmosphere below them. Going a bit slower for a while means more is lost to gravity as well. If you launch from 127,000 feet, you can forget about this problem and accelerate as hard as is practical. Plus, any fairings to deal with what's left of the atmosphere will be much lighter than ones made for denser air would be.

On the other hand, how much helium do we have to throw away? Seems like if this was a regular thing, we might use up the reserves fairly quickly. Maybe people could be persuaded to accept hydrogen. It would probably be a good idea to burn the balloon and its gas after the launch.
don't worry the investor scammers are still out there like a pneumatic orbital gun, I love how they just ignore what happens once it leaves the gun, and they plan on building this thing at sea level.
I checked out their site. (longshotspace.com) Their current subscale test rig, which gets up to Mach 4.2, accelerates projectiles at at least 5,800 g's. I doubt if a useful rocket can be made to withstand that much. On the other hand, they say they eventually want to make a 500 meter long cannon to get a 220 lb load up to Mach 5. That would take at least 300 g's. Let's say that load is 6 inches in diameter and has the same drag coefficient of 0.3, as above. If at sea level, maybe the drag would be around 7,500 lbs. That's more than 30 g's of acceleration in the wrong direction. No doubt, the muzzle would be above some fraction of the atmosphere, so maybe the drag will really be "only" 6,000 lbs. Still a problem.

Considering the aerodynamic drag, I wonder what the optimal angle for the launch would be, and how they'd support a 500 meter long cannon at that angle. I also wonder if a rocket built heavily enough to withstand 300 g's, launching at Mach 5, would actually have an advantage over one that launches at 0, but only needs to withstand 5 or 10 g's. I also wonder how useful tiny payloads, made to withstand 300 g's, would be.

Maybe the trick would be to bribe some politician near the equator with high mountains in his country, who doesn't care about environmental issues*, and build the cannon there. Maybe the muzzle could be at 20,000 feet, above half the atmosphere. And maybe a mountain with an appropriate slope for supporting the cannon could be found.

Obviously, I'm pretty skeptical about this proposal.

I suspect that, in the long run, if we continue to be a technological civilization, we'll have a space elevator. There are also some other dodges I've run across that wouldn't be quite as difficult as the space elevator. Still plenty challenging, though.

*Deaf llamas and condors, at a minimum. And who knows what propellant they'd end up using.
 
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