I don't remember a Baby Bertha being this hard (Estes kits mislabeling)

[MichaelRapp]

A few weeks ago I picked up a Baby Bertha at Hobby Lobby as a way to get back into rocketry. I noticed that is was labeled as a Skill Level Three rocket. That seemed weird....I didn't think it seemed all that difficult to build.

Yesterday I (finally) got around to cleaning out my workspace and started unpacking my rocketry stuff I had stored three years ago. To my surprise I had a partially-constructed Baby Bertha in there that I had completely forgotten about! I also had its packaging, which clearly showed it as a Level One rocket. Wondering if Estes had made some bizarre change to the rocket in the intervening three years, I checked their web site. No, the Baby Bertha is clearly listed as Level One so this packaging is mislabeled. (Curiously, the Crossfire I also picked up is also mislabeled as a Level Three.)

I thought it was interesting....I wonder how many rockets and how large the print run was before Estes caught it?

 

[jadebox]

Estes appears to be intentionally changing the meaning of each Skill Level.

I am updating RocketReviews and JonRocket.com to use descriptive phrases rather than numbers since the new levels are sure to cause some confusion as Estes's new Skill Levels won't match historic ones or those of other manufacturers.

 

[samb]

The brave new world of Estes skill levels, first seen last year: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?138070-New-Estes-skill-levels&p=1654577#post1654577

Basically RTF's are skill level 1, ARF's are level 2, anything requiring gluing/sanding/painting start at level 3.

They may never update the website. :confused2:

 

[rstaff3]

The brave new world of Estes skill levels, first seen last year: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?138070-New-Estes-skill-levels&p=1654577#post1654577

Basically RTF's are skill level 1, ARF's are level 2, anything requiring gluing/sanding/painting start at level 3.

They may never update the website. :confused2:

I was about to make a wisecrack only to find what I was chuckling about is reality.

 

[PBic]

I always thought the Estes Pro Series II E2X was a bit of an oxymoron.[h=1][/h]

 

[BEC]

To further complicate things, as I understand it this "recalibration" of the skill levels project was not completed and won't be. So the only positive thing - if you can call it that - it succeeded in doing is providing more packaging variations for those who collect kits.

For the rest of us, and especially newcomers, it's just confusing things further.

Notice the new style packaging calls it "level" and not "skill level" for whatever that's worth.

 

[Nytrunner]

The delineations between 1-2-3 was always a little hazy for me, so I don't mind it being compressed to 3-4 in the new scheme.
I mean, the magician was really just a tube with surface fins and a transition called Skill 3 , but the Loadstar was a Skill 2 two-stage?


RTF->1
E2X->2
Sk 1\
Sk 2|=>/ 3
Sk 3/ \ 4
Sk 4 -> 5 (QCC explorer and company)
Sk 5 -> 6 (Blackstar Voyager, Asteroid Hunter and company)


PSII E2X makes a tad bit of sense to me; they're easy to build, but you still need some experience to be able to fly and recover them successfully (plus standoff distance and safety and all that)

 

[samb]

To further complicate things, as I understand it this "recalibration" of the skill levels project was not completed and won't be. So about all it really succeeded in doing is providing more packaging variations for those who collect kits.

That is interesting news Bernard. I hope some wiz-kid, business school grad, marketing MBA heads rolled over that one. Waste of time and money. Skill levels began with the Damon acquisition of Estes, winter 1969, and have been confusing everybody ever since !

 

[BEC]

Indeed.

One of my favorite models, the Nova Payloader, has been both Skill Level 2 and Skill Level 1 over the years. And the NP has been amazingly unchanged over the three periods it's been available - the first variation had a balsa NB-50 and a screw eye as the base of the payload section, waterslide decals and the original form of the motor hook. That version has die cut fins.

Since then it's had a plastic nose cone base and paper spacer ring as the base of the payload section and the markings are peel-n-stick. The fins are laser cut.

Not much difference between them from a "how hard is it to build this model" standpoint. Yet it went from "Skill Level 2" in that first release to "Skill Level 1" in the subsequent releases.

I suppose it if it came back and they applied that new "level" scheme it would have to be 3 or maybe even 4.

As for heads rolling - who knows. As I understood it the attempted change came out of Hobbico, not from the folks in Penrose. But I have no visibility into what happened afterward.

 

[Nytrunner]

I could see balsa nose and water slides being "more involved" than plastic and stickers.

I actually liked the new packaging

 

[samb]

...

I actually liked the new packaging

Yep. Cool purple, recommended motors prominent up front, jazzy font for the kit name.

 

[neil_w]

I could see balsa nose and water slides being "more involved" than plastic and stickers.

I actually liked the new packaging

New packaging = good
New skill levels = bad
Leaving the transition half-finished = ugly

(For everything else there’s MasterCard)

 

[BEC]

Neil and I are on the same page here..... (with or without the MasterCard )

 

[LithosphereRocketry]

I'm OK with the new packaging... Don't have much opinion one way or another.

One thing I'd love if they brought back- those little stickers/decals with recommended motors listed on them. Now that I've been flying for awhile I can do without them- but when I first started they were the best. Not sure what motors will work? Just look on the fincan!

 

[MichaelRapp]

Wow, that'll teach me to drop out of the hobby for an extended period of time!

I can kinda see the logic behind it....but wow does it mess with my mind.

 

[walterb]

also in the old days being D Powered or multi stage moved a rocket up a level. Things like the Scorpion or Cherokee-d were level two even with level one skills.

 

[caveduck]

I don't really understand why model rockets have to have "skill levels" at all. Compare to other segments of the hobby world: airplanes - nope. plastic models - nope. wooden ships - nope. model RR - nope. high power rockets - nope. For most of those you'll usually just see a descriptive term like "for beginning to intermediate modelers". And they all get to insane complexity levels never seen in LPR kits. I wonder what motivated Estes/Damon to even adopt that system, and for Hobbico to preserve it given they already own other hobby kit lines that don't do that...personally I think they should ditch the levels and go descriptive.

 

[Initiator001]

I don't really understand why model rockets have to have "skill levels" at all. Compare to other segments of the hobby world: airplanes - nope. plastic models - nope. wooden ships - nope. model RR - nope. high power rockets - nope. For most of those you'll usually just see a descriptive term like "for beginning to intermediate modelers". And they all get to insane complexity levels never seen in LPR kits. I wonder what motivated Estes/Damon to even adopt that system, and for Hobbico to preserve it given they already own other hobby kit lines that don't do that...personally I think they should ditch the levels and go descriptive.

I remember seeing on Revell/Monogram plastic airplane kit boxes skill level ratings of 1, 2 or 3. I was surprised when I first saw this years ago. It may have coincided with Hobbico/Great Planes purchase of Revell/Monogram.

The skill level program for Estes rockets was a marketing plan. Dane Boles told me about it. It was started as interest in rocketry started fading in the early 1970s. The goal was to get model builders to work their way up in kit difficulty and hopefully keep them buying rocket kits longer than they would have otherwise. I think it may have backfired as once a modeler builds one or two skill level five models they may consider their involvement with hobby rocketry 'complete' and move on.

I think this same issue affects HPR. In the beginning there was only 'certification'. One flies an 'H' motor then can go fly any other commercially available HPR certified motor. Eventually a modeler would find an area of interest in HPR and fly models in that range.
Now, with Level 1, 2, 3 certification, I've seen folks work their way through all levels in two years or less, declare they have done all there is in the hobby and move on (I'm excluding the folks who do EX). I think the hobby was better before level certifications.

 

[BABAR]

I don't really understand why model rockets have to have "skill levels" at all. Compare to other segments of the hobby world: airplanes - nope. plastic models - nope. wooden ships - nope. model RR - nope. high power rockets - nope. For most of those you'll usually just see a descriptive term like "for beginning to intermediate modelers". And they all get to insane complexity levels never seen in LPR kits. I wonder what motivated Estes/Damon to even adopt that system, and for Hobbico to preserve it given they already own other hobby kit lines that don't do that...personally I think they should ditch the levels and go descriptive.

If the skill levels were consistent and accurate I think they would be good. Maybe keep parents or grandpa or aunt from buying a kid something beyond what he or she can handle. Hard on a kid to get as a gift something that looks super duper cool only to have it get messed up cuz just isn’t ready for it yet.

Course, I still see people taking their kids to R Rated movies.

 

[Nytrunner]

Grandma: "And I remember <grandchild name> liked rockets, so I got him this! It's called an "Asteroid Hunter" and it reminded me of those video games he likes also!"

 

[Mugs914]

I liked the original "degree of challenge" that Estes used to grade their kits. Lasted for two years (71-72) before being changed to "skill level" in 73. Seemed to be more descriptive somehow and refered to the kit itself rather than to the abilities of the builder.

 

[samb]

Just a little visual aid from the '71 Estes catalog in support of Mugs' post:

The first appearance of the "Guide to Model Rocket Selection" and the start of the great debate and endless tweaking. :wink:



https://www.estesrockets.com/media//catalogs/Estes_1971_Catalog.pdf

 

[BABAR]

Just a little visual aid from the '71 Estes catalog in support of Mugs' post:

The first appearance of the "Guide to Model Rocket Selection" and the start of the great debate and endless tweaking. :wink:

View attachment 336325

https://www.estesrockets.com/media//catalogs/Estes_1971_Catalog.pdf

I guess it is easy to be critical, but recommending a two stage for a beginner?