I blew it, Rail for Rail Button selection

[BABAR]

Short version, does this sound like this rail will work for a mini-button?

ZYLtech 2020 Aluminum T-Slot Aluminum Extrusion-2000mm


Specifications:
Surface finish: neutral anodized aluminum (silver)
Length: 2000mm
High quality 20mm x 20mm aluminum extrusion

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ZYLtech-20...739195?hash=item4b47a7fe7b:g:ChwAAOSwWDBbDEIa
I mistakenly thought mini-buttons worked on a 10x10 rail, and order a 72 inch rail from eRockets.biz, great service, sent me just what I asked to, which turned out to be wrong.



Long version





Okay, I violated my Dad’s instructions, RTDQ2! (Read The Question Twice!)

I got mini and micro rail buttons from Rail-Buttons.com along with the a 4 foot mini-button rail and a 5 foot micro-button rail.
BTW, they are going down for a while November 12, so get orders in now I guesss if you need them, from the site

https://rail-buttons.com/
We will be closed for beginning November 12th until the
end of the year to have surgery. I’ll be down to only one good arm, so filling orders will be impossible.
Sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.

I wanted to go to a 6 foot rail using mini-buttons for my Interceptor E.

Also from the site

https://rail-buttons.com/minimicro.html
Has a link for longer rails, the linked eBay online store is close although the site itself , 8020.net is open

At that site
$43.44 For a 72” rail delivered ($26 of that is for shipping)

So the description at the beginning of this post is cheaper and slightly longer.

Another option is just to stay with the 72” 10x10 rail and get the appropriate buttons, but since I am mainly a LPR guy, seems like overkill (plus I have a zillion micro and mini buttons because they were so darn cheap bought a bunch of them.)

Anyway, lesson learned, always double check to make sure you are ordering the right size.

 

[dr wogz]

The wife recently bought a new shower curtain. Nice, pretty design, cloth, somewhat high-end (a few $$).

Package received, and I went to put it up.. It was about 36" wide.. Was meant for a single shower stall, not a full bath / shower.. She now knows to R-E-A-D the details..

I do feel your pain!!

 

[tfish]

I'm about a day or two behind you. I ordered the buttons a few days ago.
I ordered the 80/20 inc 20 series rail from Grainger online.. https://www.grainger.com/product/80-20-Framing-Extrusion-16U247 12 foot free shipping..I just went and picked it up..

I'm going to play around and see if I can down size some of my rail buttons on my min dia rockets..(yes towers work as do fly away(most of the time))
3 min dia on mini buttons? A 54m on micro buttons..

Tony

 

[o1d_dude]

Replying to OP Short Version:

Short Answer: Yes.

Long Answer: Mini buttons need a 20x20 mm rail. Micro buttons use the 10x10 mm rail.

Gratuitous Answer: I have all three types of buttons and rails and in multiple lengths. Also have conformal guides. “Choices, Mr Townes, choices.”

 

[tfish]

Discovered a cool thing today..
An 80/20 20mm rail will slide right into a 1010. In theory i will not need to use a pad adapter..
Just slide it into and existing 1010 rail.



And secure in place! (?)

It's a tad...1/8 - 3/16..inch jiggly..but not to bad!

Tony

 

[BABAR]

Discovered a cool thing today..
An 80/20 20mm rail will slide right into a 1010. In theory i will not need to use a pad adapter..
Just slide it into and existing 1010 rail.

View attachment 435910

And secure in place! (?)
View attachment 435913
It's a tad...1/8 - 3/16..inch jiggly..but not to bad!

Tony

Now THAT is super helpful, since I have a solid attachment point for my 80/20 rail.

Not sure if/when I'm gonna use the 10 10, but at least it won't require a lot of effort

Thanks!

 

[Nytrunner]

Will the 1010 interfere with fins on the 20mm rail?

 

[tfish]

Will the 1010 interfere with fins on the 20mm rail?

Below are some photos of a 54mm dia rocket with some stock mini rail buttons from the .com place.




It looks like fins will clear.
My goal is to up my altitudes using the smaller 20mm rails in place of a 1010 rail on 54 and 3" min dia flights.
Yes I know towers and fly aways..will eliminate all rail button drag completely..I just don't like tower tip, fiddle factor, Will the fly away break..etc.
I'm not sure how big, heavy or fast of a rocket the stock mini buttons can take. I'm currently playing around with some stock over the counter stuff..that should work for some M flights and be less draggy then 1010 buttons.

Tony

 

[Nytrunner]

Thanks for the compare!
Maybe we'll get to see you down in H'ville next year

I'm not sure how big, heavy or fast of a rocket the stock mini buttons can take. I'm currently playing around with some stock over the counter stuff..that should work for some M flights and be less draggy then 1010 buttons.

Well, you have to admit your M rockets tend to be a little smaller and lighter than the big honkin ones we fly East of the MS

 

[tfish]

Allen...I missed Huntsville this year. I really like going there to hang out..

So, I think I came up with a couple of good strong options for me. As a reminder I'm looking to gain a tad of altitude without using a tower or fly away things.
I want to use these on some 54 and 3" min dia rockets, that currently use 1/4 rail buttons on 1010 rails.

here are the rails..left to right. Micro, Mini, 1010 and 1515


Here are the stock rail buttons...Mini, 1010 and 1515



The buttons..


#3 is a stock Mini button with a 4/40 flat head machine screw
#5 is a stock 1010 button with a #8 flat head machine screw
#2 is a #4 Nylon Flange bushing .250 long with a 4/40 Truss head machine screw.
#4 is a #4 Nylon Flange bushing .250 long with a 6/32 Truss head machine screw.
#1 is like #2 but has a nylon washer on it.

I needed to shorten the stock .250" long flanged bushings to .086" long. For that I made a tool that Micromeister had posted.. https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/micro-buttons-railbuttons-com-beta-test.64825/post-780500



Once we start to launch rockets around her again, I will be testing buttons #2 on 54mm min dia and buttons #4 on some 3" min dia rockets.


Tony

 

[Brian V]

Great information!! Thanks I have better understanding of buttons and rail sizes.

 

[tfish]

some of the bits and pieces I used..


Flanged Nylon Bushing #4 .123" ID .199 OD https://hillmangroup.com/us/en/Fast...-(#4-Screw-x-0-199"-Shank-Outer-Dia-)/p/58064

#29 Drill bit to drill them for #6/32 machine screws

Truss head (much larger heads) machine screws 4/40 and 6/32 https://www.mcmaster.com/91785A142/

#10 carriage bolts..for rail stops and or mounting the mini rail to a strong back.. https://www.mcmaster.com/91785A142/

A new place I just came across.. https://www.rtlfasteners.com/RC/o.html I was looking for some 4/40 blind nuts and this place popped up..I ended up stocking up on a few things. Price was good as was shipping and got it quickly..




Tony

 

[BABAR]

Well bummer not all 80-20 rails are created equal. On the left is my 4ft rail which I got from Amazon as directed by Rail buttons.com. On the right is the one that I got for the beginning of this post. Inside are mini buttons. The one on the left the mini button is held securely. As you can see, the space is just too wide and allows it to fall out. Basically if you just turn it a little bit it pops right out. I think probably the solution is going to be to find a bigger washer for the mini button that will not slide out. If I can't find some I can probably make them out of credit card Keys. A little bit frustrating since now this is the second 6ft rail that I bought that doesn't work at least doesn't work right out of the box.

 

[T-Rex]

Well bummer not all 80-20 rails are created equal.

That is not a true statement. Your problem is that you didn't purchase an 80/20 rail. 80/20 is a brand name for extruded aluminum beams and the fittings to build using them.
You purchased a knock off. Unfortunately it was also slightly different to avoid patent issues.

 

[crossfire]

I had the same issue I purchased a off brand rail for Mini buttons. From reading description I thought I had the right size. When it arrived it was way to big for Mini buttons. The 80/20 brand 20mm size was perfect. I ordered right from 80/20 store. It cost more but it fits perfect.

 

[T-Rex]

There is a 4meter long length available through ebay. I bought one a couple years ago. Still haven't decided how I want to cut it.

 

[BABAR]

Okay, side by side comparison. Take home lesson is that if you look to save money on a knock off, make sure you check the cross sectional diameters, as at last THIS one didn't work.

Hopefully others will learn from my mistake.


The "slot" on the "real" 80/20 rail is 5.26 mm compared with 6.2 mm on the ZYLtech. This is probably the main reason the buttons won't work on the Knock-Off Rail.
The "internal width" of the slot on the 80/20 is 11.99mm compared with 11 on the ZYLtech
The "depth" of the slot on the 80/20 is 4.70mm compared with 4.3 mm on the ZYLtech.

Bottom line is that the Mini-Buttons will fit in the slot of the ZYLtech, but the outlet of the slot is too wide, and with a minimal twist/angulation of the button the button falls out of the hole.

I am going to ask @Angie to copy this as post number 2 on this and the other post I put in about my plaint that what I got doesn't work for the mini-rail buttons from Rail-Buttons.com. Note currently the SITE is up but Randy is (per the site) not filling orders until the new year due to rotator cuff surgery.

Here is a side by side cross section comparison of the 80/20 Rail from the

sources of above information.

80/20 Store 20 mm rail
https://8020.net/20-2020.html
ZYLtech rail from e-bay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ZYLtech-20...739195?hash=item4b47a7fe7b:g:ChwAAOSwWDBbDEIa
and yes, the information WAS there when I ordered it, I just didn't know that there were any differences, I figured they all had the same dimensions.

https://rail-buttons.com/
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...ot-work-for-mini-buttons.163031/#post-2071101 will also be fixed.

This post is https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/i-blew-it-rail-for-rail-button-selection.162391/

 

[crossfire]

Don't feel to bad I purchased off brand rail for the Mini buttons it said it was 20mm which I needed. Well when I got it slot was way to but big it fit 1010 buttons good. Went to 80/20 site played more but its perfect.

 

[cwbullet]

I have the weekend off. I will try to post some of my designs. What size screw so you use for mini, micro, etc? Below 1010, I glue them on.

 

[BABAR]

Okay number eight size nylon washer does the trick. I got the black one which was a little thicker. Unfortunately I thought I took a picture of the number for the black one that I got but the number here is for the white one. Here's a picture.

Also a pic of the white one which is thinner

Also from @tfish post #10 above says it is a #8 screw if I read it right.

Tried to put pic here but phone not cooperating

 

[BABAR]

FWIW it also fits nicely in the true 80/20 rail

 

[BABAR]

At 16 cents a piece they don't exactly break the bank

 

[BABAR]

The fit is a bit loose due to larger inside diameter but still far less than the screw head, so secure enough.

 

[Rocks&Rockets]

I Use #8-32 countersink machine screws to attach my rail buttons. Nothing protrudes above the button head to drag/scar the aluminum.

 

[hball55]

some of the bits and pieces I used..


Flanged Nylon Bushing #4 .123" ID .199 OD https://hillmangroup.com/us/en/Fastening-Solutions/Specialty/Spacers,-Bushings-&-Bearings/Bushings/Natural-White-Flanged-Nylon-Bushing-(#4-Screw-x-0-199"-Shank-Outer-Dia-)/p/58064

#29 Drill bit to drill them for #6/32 machine screws

Truss head (much larger heads) machine screws 4/40 and 6/32 https://www.mcmaster.com/91785A142/

#10 carriage bolts..for rail stops and or mounting the mini rail to a strong back.. https://www.mcmaster.com/91785A142/

A new place I just came across.. https://www.rtlfasteners.com/RC/o.html I was looking for some 4/40 blind nuts and this place popped up..I ended up stocking up on a few things. Price was good as was shipping and got it quickly..

View attachment 437237View attachment 437238


Tony

Scary Tony, scary. You still dumpster dive for rocket body tubes?

 

[tfish]

Scary Tony, scary. You still dumpster dive for rocket body tubes?

not lately...I've pretty much given up on body tubes and just glue the fins on the motor and add a pointy thing on them.. https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/98mm-subminimum-diameter.162595/

How are you? It's been awhile!

Tony

 

[hball55]

not lately...I've pretty much given up on body tubes and just glue the fins on the motor and add a pointy thing on them.. https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/98mm-subminimum-diameter.162595/

How are you? It's been awhile!

Tony

ROFL, great answer. Always pushing the boundaries, and then some. Myself, just getting older and lazier, have to stop that before I become one of those guys that ride around on one of those battery-run scooters. Gonna start walking more to strengthen the legs so I can chase down my rockets and not be laid up for two days afterwards. Of course, I could just launch at Black Rock so I could drive my truck to recover my rocket; Snow Ranch wears me out. Haven’t ridden my Harley or launched a rocket in three years and now I have the bug again, for rockets not Harleys. Anybody want to buy a Harley? I have two.

Anyway, hoping this Covid goes away because I want to burn some AP.

 

[BABAR]

I have the weekend off. I will try to post some of my designs. What size screw so you use for mini, micro, etc? Below 1010, I glue them on.

I got this from Randy at rail-buttons.com

The screw sizes are:

1515 - 10-24
1010 - 8-32
mini - 4-40
micro - 2-56

[email protected]

 

[CPUTommy]

Rail buttons.. my L2 attempt .. get to the rail, the heads of my screws hit the inside channel of the rail, I was bummed out... used a fly away rail guide...and it worked like a charm.

Now.. that issue.. thanks to you.. is avoidable now.. Sorry you went through this however.. what you've shared..will be used to help me and many others!

THANK YOU !

 

[shockie]

Does anybody have sources for micro and mini rails? Tia