I’m feeling kinda stupid..

[dr wogz]

Just that. For whatever reason, I had the impression that CAR was the absolute overseer of all things rocketry in Canada. It turns out, they are an entity like NAR or TRA, just Canadian. (I had thought, that although CAR has some clubs, CAR oversaw NAR & TRA clubs & tests..)

So, I kinda feel that I’ve been touting to them that they needed to help NAR & TRA clubs, and that all Canadian clubs had to submit the TC (Transport Canada) tests to them for validation. So, then, why should they help NAR & TRA in Canada, all things being equal..

And, with that, I’m wondering if it should be suggested, that the TRA site be amended to include a ‘Canadian content’ for Canadian clubs & flyers. I think that’s also where some of my confusion came from, that NAR & TRA level one way, while CAR level another way. And that CAR ask for a TC test while the other two don’t (or that no one has specifically confirmed they do). Granted, NAR & TRA are geared for US. But both have Canadian members, and TRA have a few Canadian clubs.. This also might alleviate the confusion as to a Canadian getting his L1 (and / or L2) in the US, then getting it ‘grandfathered in’ when they go to fly at a CAR event. Therefore missing out on the TC test (which is supposed to be a federal requirement for Canadians flying in Canada).. Also, the levelling requirements are different for Canada & the US.. A NAR or TRA club in Canada should require their members to follow the Canadian style of levelling.. And again, I think this has led to some confusion for others..

The impression I have, is that only CAR seems to enforce these rules, and that has led into me thinking they are the overruling entity in Canada.

If your club is not CAR affiliated, and is capable of High power, do you write the TC test, and apply the L1 & L2 according to Canadian rule?

 

[Tyler P]

From the TC High Power Requirements document, they mention the CLSO a number of times.

The CLSO is the Canadian Launch Safety Office. It is a part of TC. All high power flights have to be authorized by them, according to the document.

It mentions CAR, TRA, and NAR, in that their safety codes are accepted.

There are no specifics as to CAR being the only governing body for certification for high power in Canada in the TC document, and because of the above paragraph, one could say that any of the three may be used, as is the case when someone from out of country who is certified for HPR may launch at a Canadian event.

I think, to clarify this, one would likely have to ask the questions of the CLSO to get a definitive answer. Nothing in the document specifically mentions CAR except in section 2.3, where all the associations are mentioned together.

Kettle of fish...

 

[Steve Shannon]

I don’t believe the four tier certification system used by CAR is required by Transport Canada or Natural Resources Canada. It’s just what CAR has adopted. As such there’s no requirement for NAR or TRA to adopt that same system when flying in Canada. The three tier system adopted by Tripoli and NAR work well.
I have not seen a requirement that members of organizations (other than CAR) pass a specific Transport Canada test as a requirement to certify. That’s not to say it doesn’t exist and certainly our members are always responsible for knowing the regulations specific to their launch locations, regardless of the country they inhabit. It’s simply not possible for the central organization (such as Tripoli) to have expertise in every country. Thus, we rely on our local Prefects, who are representatives of Tripoli Rocketry Association, to make sure that laws are not being broken.
The only requirement is read in the TC advisory document is:

5.2. All persons launching high power rockets in Canada shall do so in accordance with the certification and/or qualification requirements for the rockets to be launched.

That could apply to Tripoli, NAR, or CAR requirements equally.

CAR has done an excellent job of working closely with Transport Canada, much closer than NAR or Tripoli could. I spoke to Greg Dietlein frequently and I hope to speak to Tim Rempel (whom I first met in the early 2000s at RocLake before the k was added) frequently as well. Our organizations have much more in common than differences.

 

[Tyler P]

I don’t believe the four tier certification system used by CAR is required by Transport Canada or Natural Resources Canada.

NRCan doesn't have any requirements for high power motors except that the person must be 18 years of age to buy and/or possess them. You can hold up to 10kgs worth without an explosives permit. That's a difference from NFPA rule.

 

[Steve Shannon]

NRCan doesn't have any requirements for high power motors except that the person must be 18 years of age to buy and/or possess them. You can hold up to 10kgs worth without an explosives permit. That's a difference from NFPA rule.

Sorry, you lost me. What’s the difference? That we don’t have a federal requirement for an explosive permit in the United States for APCP rocket motors? That’s true.

 

[Tyler P]

Sorry, you lost me. What’s the difference? That we don’t have a federal requirement for an explosive permit in the United States for APCP rocket motors? That’s true.

Actually, I kind of forgot about the part that APCP isn't considered an explosive in the US. So, yes, that is true.

What I was getting at was that an uncertified Canadian flier may possess ANY level of motor up to the 49xxxNm threshold without a permit. Although weight comes into play in the NRCan regs, so once you get to a motor that weighs above 10kgs, you would need a permit in Canada.

That's different than the NFPA, isn't it? You're allowed to have one cert motor (as per discussions with NAR) but not multiple above your cert level.

Learning as I go, but I really should read more deeply into the NFPA regs. I've only really dug in the Canadian side of things.

 

[Crayok]

Hey Paul

You are correct CAR/ACF does not oversight NAR or TRA operations only ours. However ALL organizations must adhere to the Transport Canada Requirements to launch HPR in Canada. So essentially what CAR/ACF has to fly by.

Interesting point on the TC test portion that you keep bringing up and now that I have better context of it applying to TRA and NAR it probably does not as it stands. Something to look into, all Canadian prefects should understand this and also NAR, I will work with TRA to make the appropriate folks aware of this. Not that we have a lot of HPR events across Canada with those organizations. Alberta has regular combined CAR/ACF and TRA events but very few TRA members taking up the TRA side of the events. I ensure TRA is active up here (Alberta Prefect and TAP) so I play both sides when appropriate. This also keeps TRA authorizations flowing thought TC. In Alberta most, if not all flyers were CAR/ACF so would have written the test way back. Something to check.

Thanks Paul for making this an obvious point that we may have missed.

David

 

[Crayok]

Also, the levelling requirements are different for Canada & the US.. A NAR or TRA club in Canada should require their members to follow the Canadian style of levelling.. And again, I think this has led to some confusion for others..

Paul

Nope, TRA and NAR follow their own certification process even in Canada. (TC test should be included in that process, will have to find an appropriate mechanism for that.)

 

[Steve Shannon]

Actually, I kind of forgot about the part that APCP isn't considered an explosive in the US. So, yes, that is true.

What I was getting at was that an uncertified Canadian flier may possess ANY level of motor up to the 49xxxNm threshold without a permit. Although weight comes into play in the NRCan regs, so once you get to a motor that weighs above 10kgs, you would need a permit in Canada.

That's different than the NFPA, isn't it? You're allowed to have one cert motor (as per discussions with NAR) but not multiple above your cert level.

Learning as I go, but I really should read more deeply into the NFPA regs. I've only really dug in the Canadian side of things.

NFPA 1127 does not establish or even mention the levels of certification; it just requires user certification. As in Canada they leave the definition of certification up to the certification organizations. If I started the Shannon Rocketry Organization and established only a single certification level, that would not violate NFPA.
Second, although it’s the foundation of the Tripoli HPR Safety Code, NFPA 1127 is only law for those locations that have adopted it. It’s not a federal law. Most states have, but not all.

 

[dr wogz]

Paul

Nope, TRA and NAR follow their own certification process even in Canada.

but they are supposed to administer the TC test in Canada; for a Canadian member at a Canadian club for Canadian HPR flights..

(Sorry David, missed the reply up top!!)

 

[Crayok]

I think, to clarify this, one would likely have to ask the questions of the CLSO to get a definitive answer. Nothing in the document specifically mentions CAR except in section 2.3, where all the associations are mentioned together.

The CLSO office is defunct, although they still have a web presence. All rocketry get routed through Special Flight Operations (SFO) within Transport Canada (UAV's included)

CAR/ACF actually works for all flyers in Canada, via conversations at the appropriate level with other organizations. The reciprocity agreements say that the process for certifications and motors are similar enough that TC can accept that.

David

 

[Crayok]

but they are supposed to administer the TC test in Canada; for a Canadian member at a Canadian club for Canadian HPR flights..

(Sorry David, missed the reply up top!!)

Yes, I fixed that part above. Something that TRA and NAR will need to address.

 

[Tyler P]

Thanks for the update!

NFPA 1127 does not establish or even mention the levels of certification; it just requires user certification. As in Canada they leave the definition of certification up to the certification organizations. If I started the Shannon Rocketry Organization and established only a single certification level, that would not violate NFPA.
Second, although it’s the foundation of the Tripoli HPR Safety Code, NFPA 1127 is only law for those locations that have adopted it. It’s not a federal law. Most states have, but not all.

Ah...I get ya. So it's up to the certifying organization to build it into their code. Interesting. I also didn't realize that NFPA 1127 wasn't federal law. Our NRCan regs are federal.

Thanks Steve and David for clarifying a few things! I don't mean to railroad Paul's thread. Just like learning, lol.

So this means that if I certify L1 with NAR, I'm able to fly H and I motors, unlike CAR where H is L1 and I is L2.

 

[Crayok]

NRCan doesn't have any requirements for high power motors except that the person must be 18 years of age to buy and/or possess them. You can hold up to 10kgs worth without an explosives permit. That's a difference from NFPA rule.

Tyler while you are correct on the 10 kg loose, just sitting around. If one had a storage unit you can hold up to 200kg. What needs to be asked is what is a storage unit? Check links below.

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/explosives/acquisition-storage-sale/15918 or
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/explosives/acquisition-storage-sale/rocket-motors/15934

 

[Crayok]

So this means that if I certify L1 with NAR, I'm able to fly H and I motors, unlike CAR where H is L1 and I is L2.

Yes (and write the TC test...). I should note that if you are a NAR member, launching would have to be at a NAR event. You would have to be a CAR/ACF member to launch at a CAR/ACF event. I do not know of any combined events with NAR.

David

 

[Tyler P]

The CLSO office is defunct, although they still have a web presence. All rocketry get routed through Special Flight Operations (SFO) within Transport Canada (UAV's included)

CAR/ACF actually works for all flyers in Canada, via conversations at the appropriate level with other organizations. The reciprocity agreements say that the process for certifications and motors are similar enough that TC can accept that.

David

This makes sense. So, for any HPR launch in Canada you need an SFOC (Special Flight Operations Certificate) similar to remotely controlled flights within restricted areas, as per some of the more recent "drone" laws. I'm a little bit familiar with the drone laws, as I've been working for a large hobby shop for the last 8 years. I didn't realize that HPR rocketry gets handled through the same offices.

 

[Tyler P]

Tyler while you are correct on the 10 kg loose, just sitting around. If one had a storage unit your can hold up to 200kg. What needs to be asked is what is a storage unit? Check links below.

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/explosives/acquisition-storage-sale/15918 or
https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/explosives/acquisition-storage-sale/rocket-motors/15934

Wow, don't know how I missed that! Excellent info! I thought I had read through all that, but apparently not closely enough! Not that I would ever want that many motors, I will likely never get past L2 in the future. Sheer cost alone will likely keep me at L1, when I get there, for awhile.

 

[Tyler P]

Yes (and write the TC test...). I should note that if you are a NAR member, launching would have to be at a NAR event. You would have to be a CAR/ACF member to launch at a CAR/ACF event. I do not know of any combined events with NAR.

David

Yes, and I will be most likely only launching HPR in the US, as we don't have any local sites here that have a decent ceiling (yet). Does this mean I still need to write the TC test if I'm not launching HPR in Canada (yet, lol).

 

[Crayok]

HPR launch in Canada you need an SFOC (Special Flight Operations Certificate) similar to remotely controlled flights within restricted areas,

No, that authorization is pretty involved and requires a lot on information and individual insurance. Primarily, in my opinion, due to no single organization providing oversight to UAV's or operation, It is what they had to do.

For rocketry since we have been working with TC since our beginning or pretty near (it was before my time) we have a separate form.

They finally seemed to have removed the CLSO web page but here is the authorization form:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-standards/26-0660.pdf

Note the requirement for a Range Safety Officer. CAR/ACF RSO are recognized but not a TRA RSO or a NAR RSO they have to be at a "higher" level and one with experience providing launch safety oversight. A TRA prefect can be an RSO but that is dependent on experience acceptable to TC. The CAR/ACF RSO program has been approved by TC so all in that category are acceptable. Another slight change that other organizations must work under.

David

 

[Crayok]

Yes, and I will be most likely only launching HPR in the US, as we don't have any local sites here that have a decent ceiling (yet). Does this mean I still need to write the TC test if I'm not launching HPR in Canada (yet, lol).

No test required, only for events held in Canada.

 

[Steve Shannon]

No, that authorization is pretty involved and requires a lot on information and individual insurance. Primarily, in my opinion, due to no single organization providing oversight to UAV's or operation, It is what they had to do.

For rocketry since we have been working with TC since our beginning or pretty near (it was before my time) we have a separate form.

They finally seemed to have removed the CLSO web page but here is the authorization form:

https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/documents/ca-standards/26-0660.pdf

Note the requirement for a Range Safety Officer. CAR/ACF RSO are recognized but not a TRA RSO or a NAR RSO they have to be at a "higher" level and one with experience providing launch safety oversight. A TRA prefect can be an RSO but that is dependent on experience acceptable to TC. The CAR/ACF RSO program has been approved by TC so all in that category are acceptable. Another slight change that other organizations must work under.

David

Having seen the CAR-ACF RSO Program since the early 2000s, I have a ton of respect for it. It formalizes a very important aspect of our hobby.

 

[dr wogz]

Yes, and I will be most likely only launching HPR in the US, as we don't have any local sites here that have a decent ceiling (yet). Does this mean I still need to write the TC test if I'm not launching HPR in Canada (yet, lol).

No. This TC test is only for Canadians launching in Canada. The few who have come thru CRMRC only write the NAR L2 test. (You need only show you can fly your H or I rocket & return it safely to terra firma for your L1). That's' what I understand..

But (this is where the argument / confusion comes in) if you want to fly at a Canadian club event, you are supposed to write the test to have your L1 (or l2, or L3) honoured at the Canadian event..

The "getting your Cert level grandfathered in" when you start to fly regularly in Canada without taking the TC test is the crux.. is it a loop-hole? Few will give a definite answer.. (it comes up once a year / couple of years..)

 

[dr wogz]

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...screpancy-in-written-test-requirement.132817/

this was another "cert flights in Canada" thread.. Again, some confusion as to what is and isn't ..

 

[dr wogz]

Another comment that came to mind is, that we all know & live the regs & cert rules. But...

New rocketeers will look for this information. And when a Canadian Rocketeer types in "HPR in Canada", CARWeb is the first thing that comes up. So, thinking that it is the Canadian governing body, they will take CAR's rules & regs as the Canadian requirements. Again, I think this is where some (my) confusion comes from. I know when I planned to join a proper club, the Quebec club is CAR, so I need CAR.. But when I looked at ORG, they aren't CAR, but are TRA. Why, then, are they not CAR if CAR is the Canadian authority? Why are they exempt? Why the difference? What is TRA then?

So, for me, this is where I think I made the assumptions that CAR is the overseer of all things Rocketry in Canada..

Tyler, did you have an initial impression when you first looked at HPR in Canada?

 

[Tyler P]

Tyler, did you have an initial impression when you first looked at HPR in Canada?

When I went searching I did end up at the CAR site. Because I was new to looking into clubs, I assumed that all Canadian clubs were under CAR. I found out later that ORG (my local club) was TRA. Really, I didn't end up digging deeper into all of this rules and regs stuff until I got called out about posting a pic my L1 cert motor on Facebook. Then I really had to dig in and find out the actual rules and laws. Thankfully, I wasn't actually breaking any rules but I won't post those pics again because it stirred the pot too much.

First impressions as a newbie looking to join a rocketry organization, yes, I thought CAR was the overseer. Looking around for high power info, not as much, because I had already learned that the local club was TRA.

If I wasn't near any clubs and didn't already know people involved in high power, I probably would have assumed that CAR was the authority, end of story.