Hydrogen as fuel

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I agree with much of what you said except this last part: I don't think weight is a problem for trucks and ships.
Weight is an issue for freight truck. DOT has weight limits on roads. Truckers get paid based on the weight of goods moved. If the truck weighs more then it will be able to carry less payload and revenue will decrease. If fuel cost savings will offset the payload reduction then it can work economically. It may work with BEV.
 
People complaining about green hydrogen is like me complaining pool tables, Bentley's and ice skates: if I'm not the maker or the buyer, it's none of my business. :yoda:

I was wondering how long it would take for somebody to show that... or the cover of Led Zeppelin I.
I actually thought of getting the Hindenberg over with in the first post. 😄

I had an idea that there could be a company to rent batteries to long haul truckers. Pull your truck into a facility and they slide out the depleted battery and slide in a new one, then you're back on your way.
I don't know the exact details but trucks can go something like 700 miles before the driver has to stop for rest. The batteries could recharge while the driver is resting but is it feasible to put enough batteries in a truck to go 700 miles? So if they could stop at 350 miles, swap batteries, then keep going it would make electric trucks more practical.
Chinese EV maker Nio has swapping stations. Tesla decided against it and spent on a much larger charging network, instead of a much smaller battery swapping network.



Sandy Munro's (a car engineer now famous for advising Tesla) opinion on hydrogen. He thinks hydrogen has a niche for long haul trucking, but not for cars. I'm seeing anyone thinking anything is better than batteries for cars.

 
But, are there other chemicals we can synthesize that could be used?
Syngas. Methane. Haber-Bosch process yields ammonia from natural gas (or methane). Fischer-Tropsch converts syngas to longer chain hydrocarbons. The Germans in WWII used the Fischer-Tropsch process to make fuels and other stuff (POL), as did South Africa during Aparthied.
There's very little new under the sun.
 
The Germans in WWII used the Fischer-Tropsch process to make fuels and other stuff (POL),

the Germans used potatoes to make ethanol to power the V2s. The 1943 potato crop had top national security attention. ;-)
 
Syngas. Methane. Haber-Bosch process yields ammonia from natural gas (or methane). Fischer-Tropsch converts syngas to longer chain hydrocarbons. The Germans in WWII used the Fischer-Tropsch process to make fuels and other stuff (POL), as did South Africa during Aparthied.
There's very little new under the sun.
Bio Butanol?
 
the Germans used potatoes to make ethanol to power the V2s. The 1943 potato crop had top national security attention. ;-)
They had too much "shrinkage" in the production and use and they had to switch to Methanol. Some of the Russian forced labor could tolerate the Methanol.
 
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I'd like to see if this was peer reviewed. It seems there is a violation of the 2nd law of Thermodynamics here. This describes a perpetual motion machine. Less energy to generate the H2 than by recombining it with O2. Impossible or energy crisis solved.
I don’t think that’s what the article says. Aluminum is simply more reactive with oxygen than hydrogen. Aluminum oxygen reactions usually stop because aluminum oxide protects aluminum but with nano particles of aluminum in the presence of gallium there’s always more aluminum exposed to break the oxygen hydrogen bond.
I wonder if mercury would contribute to a similar reaction.
 
I'd like to see if this was peer reviewed. It seems there is a violation of the 2nd law of Thermodynamics here. This describes a perpetual motion machine. Less energy to generate the H2 than by recombining it with O2. Impossible or energy crisis solved.
The article is a summary of, and indeed links to, a peer-reviewed paper. Enjoy.

🚰 🚰 🚰 🚰 🚰 🚰

Possibly the leading global hydrogen publication:

https://www.h2-view.com
 
I don’t think that’s what the article says. Aluminum is simply more reactive with oxygen than hydrogen. Aluminum oxygen reactions usually stop because aluminum oxide protects aluminum but with nano particles of aluminum in the presence of gallium there’s always more aluminum exposed to break the oxygen hydrogen bond.
I wonder if mercury would contribute to a similar reaction.
If the reaction consumes aluminum then you need to consider the energy input needed to create the nano-aluminum, no? You got to mine it, reduce it (mucho energy) and then produce a nano form of it (energy unknown). BTW fossil is largely involved in aluminum production, it is very energy intensive. How many grams of aluminum are consumed per 1g of H2? Then do the energy balance. I will wager a days pay that it uses MORE net energy than direct electrolysis.
 
If the reaction consumes aluminum then you need to consider the energy input needed to create the nano-aluminum, no? You got to mine it, reduce it (mucho energy) and then produce a nano form of it (energy unknown). BTW fossil is largely involved in aluminum production, it is very energy intensive. How many grams of aluminum are consumed per 1g of H2? Then do the energy balance. I will wager a days pay that it uses MORE net energy than direct electrolysis.
The article says that the aluminum could come from recycled. So no additional energy costs from mining and production other than initial use. The gallium metal would be more of a challenge. Again from the article some of it can be reclaimed from the hydrogen production process. I found it interesting that coincidentally gallium is a by product of the processing of bauxite into aluminum.
 
The article says that the aluminum could come from recycled. So no additional energy costs from mining and production other than initial use. The gallium metal would be more of a challenge. Again from the article some of it can be reclaimed from the hydrogen production process. I found it interesting that coincidentally gallium is a by product of the processing of bauxite into aluminum.
Yes but recycled aluminum isn't free. You are taking that scrap out of the stream so it has to be replaced with freshly mined and reduced bauxite. There is no free energy lunch. The process is essentially burning aluminum and generating hydrogen. Its just reverting the aluminum (does it have to be pure Al? scrap isn't pure Al by a long shot) back to Al2O3 and recovering the energy that was done to reduce it in the first place.

Now lets talk about cost. The article says your get 130ml of H2 per gram of aluminum. That is 0.00459 0,.ft3. The density of H2 is 0.00523lb/ft3.
Thus 1g of Al yields 0.00459*0.00523 = 0.000024 lbs of H2 (somebody check my math).

Thus it will take 41666 grams of aluminum to produce 1lb of H2 or 90lbs of nano aluminum to produce 1lb of H2.

1 lb of H2 will generate about 16kwh of energy. 90# of aluminum at todays prices will cost $91.35 (that doesn't count the cost of the "nano" stuff.

So the cost of energy of this process will be $5.71 per kwh. (assuming the nano aluminum cost is the same as current industrial aluminum prices).
 
If the reaction consumes aluminum then you need to consider the energy input needed to create the nano-aluminum, no? You got to mine it, reduce it (mucho energy) and then produce a nano form of it (energy unknown). BTW fossil is largely involved in aluminum production, it is very energy intensive. How many grams of aluminum are consumed per 1g of H2? Then do the energy balance. I will wager a days pay that it uses MORE net energy than direct electrolysis.
My day’s pay (I’m retired) versus yours? Doesn’t seem fair to you. 😁
 
Perfectly fair. Never bet against the laws of thermodynamics. You will lose everytime. Can't even breakeven.
Oh, I believe you that it uses more energy, but the article never did claim it violated the laws of thermodynamics or even that it was cheap or that they were getting more out than they put in. In fact within the first few paragraphs they said that it could be useful only if scientists could make use of existing aluminum and gallium and if they could figure out how to do it cheaply.
 
Perfectly fair. Never bet against the laws of thermodynamics. You will lose everytime. Can't even breakeven.
It's a job criteria for professional chemists to know the laws of thermodynamics. They use them to look for new and ever more efficient ways to make stuff. The price of anything depends on how much of it they make.

You seem to be suggesting these chemists should do something else. What?

Some research is done for a specific purpose, other research is done as exploration (JWST? SLS?). I just can't see how finding and improving a new way to make hydrogen could possibly be a bad thing. A client can't pick the best branch without seeing the whole tree. These chemists are making that tree.

Here's people making hydrogen from ethanol:

https://www.h2-view.com/story/shell-to-finance-hydrogen-from-ethanol-production-in-brazil/
There are many ways to make (green) H2, maybe someone could make or find a table or chart showing the cost for each method.
 
Oh, I believe you that it uses more energy, but the article never did claim it violated the laws of thermodynamics or even that it was cheap or that they were getting more out than they put in. In fact within the first few paragraphs they said that it could be useful only if scientists could make use of existing aluminum and gallium and if they could figure out how to do it cheaply.
There is also the law of economics. Existing aluminum isn't free. At current alloy prices this conversion costs a minimum of $5.71 per kwh. And aluminum alloy isnt likely to decrease much in price if the overall cost of energy increases. If you want to decarbonize electrical generation just set the price of electricity at $5.71 and cutout the middleman of green hydrogen folly. CO2 emissions will drop like a rock. Problem solved.
 
Ammonia is almost as ludicrous at hydrogen. But that's a topic for another thread.
 
John,
When did you become such a defeatist and so negative. You’re like a big black hole when it comes to people discussing possible future technologies.
I remember once asking a radio communications dealer when he thought cell phones would come to Montana. His answer was “Never! They’re too expensive and Montana has such a small population.”
You’ve become that guy.
 
John,
When did you become such a defeatist and so negative. You’re like a big black hole when it comes to people discussing possible future technologies.
I remember once asking a radio communications dealer when he thought cell phones would come to Montana. His answer was “Never! They’re too expensive and Montana has such a small population.”
You’ve become that guy.
I am not a defeatist, I can just do math and take data. I know dreaming is fun but this is a subject that needs a reality viewpoint. Someone needs to provide it, with analysis. Throwing valueable resources at technological and economic dead ends is dangerous for society.

Cell phones had Moore's Law working for them, there is no Moore's law for electron Volts from well established chemical redox reactions.
 
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Dropping this here until I have time to read it. Because it's interesting and relevant to the thread.

https://h2tools.org
 
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Did anyone pay attention to the SLS launch attempt this morning? What happened, why didn't it launch? H2 leak. Very difficult to deal with.

In the hands of untrained civilians? No thanks.
 
Did anyone pay attention to the SLS launch attempt this morning? What happened, why didn't it launch? H2 leak. Very difficult to deal with.

In the hands of untrained civilians? No thanks.
:questions: I haven't really been following SLS until last week, but now that I see how much problems they've been having with H2 fueling, I'm starting to feel I should read the books and go down there myself. 🤨 Not saying I could do a better job, but what the 🤬 is going on that in 2022, liquid hydrogen is suddenly a problem? :dontknow: I have the same questions as you.
 
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