Hybrids 2022

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kramer714

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I remember having a really awesome hybrid-centered conversation with an attendee out there at November ROCstock. He basically talked me through the idea for the system, with ordinary rubber as propellant and how “hot oxygen turns anything into a rocket”. Not sure if that was you, but in either case I’ll let you know if intend to get into flying them.

On the other hand, I also did see an F10 go out there on Saturday and I’m pretty sure only Apogee makes them, and Apogee doesn’t go for CSFM approval, so it’s possible ROC plays fast and loose with the rules.

Having been a ROC member for a long time, they are hardly Fast, and not very Loose.... (but a good group to launch with! )

ROC follows Tripoli and NAR rules, any motors need to be certified and legal in California.....

I will have hybrids at LDRS in June, look for them.
 

smstachwick

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Having been a ROC member for a long time, they are hardly Fast, and not very Loose.... (but a good group to launch with! )

ROC follows Tripoli and NAR rules, any motors need to be certified and legal in California.....

I will have hybrids at LDRS in June, look for them.
Good to know, that actually puts some (admittedly minor) anxieties to rest. Thanks!
 

karlbaum

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Does anyone happen to know the rules for flying hybrids in California? I couldn’t help but notice that ROC advertises hybrid flights at their own events and I’ve seen guys bring their GSE and motors out there, but I also know that commercial rocket motors typically require California State Fire Marshal certification to be legal outside of research events.

Is there an exemption for hybrids or something?

I'm not a lawyer but I don't believe hybrid reloads need CSFM approval because they are inert and contain no pyrotechnics. You can send them through the mail no problem and no hazmat fees. You can take them on commercial airplanes. You can in fact ignite them with no pyro devices at all if you use gaseous oxygen, electricity and steel wool. But the simplest way to get a hybrid started is with a "pre-heater grain" which is of course pyrotechnic. Also keep in mind that commercial launches require motors certified by Tripoli, NAR, or CAR.
 
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I'm not a lawyer but I don't believe hybrid reloads need CSFM approval because they are inert and contain no pyrotechnics. You can send them through the mail no problem and no hazmat fees. You can take them on commercial airplanes. You can in fact ignite them with no pyro devices at all if you use gaseous oxygen, electricity and steel wool. But the simplest way to get a hybrid started is with a "pre-heater grain" which is of course pyrotechnic. Also keep in mind that commercial launches require motors certified by Tripoli, NAR, or CAR.
Has anyone tried an oxygen concentrator as a source of oxygen for the steel wool. That eliminates running out of oxygen and having an oxygen bottle but adds needing power.
Norm
 

Dave A

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kfort

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It can be very powerful and safe to use if you know what you are doing.
Agree, NOS is fairly safe to use if you don’t drop the bottle on concrete or heat it up with a blow torch. Although, we do have a grave yard of of pistons and rods laying around. 1F6A4F3D-AD41-4E76-AC6E-983D6B62E56A.jpeg
 

CoyoteNumber2

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When I win enough lottery to self-insure, I have this really great idea for a NOS/propane chainsaw....

I've always wanted to run nitrous in my fireplace.

I have blown nitrous into a campfire, however.
 

DRAGON64

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It looks to be inevitable, that my 20lbs supply tank will not be enough to support my hybrid exploits. Talking with a rocket friend, he was able to figure that my 5300cc motor will consume roughly 14lbs of nitrous per fill, not including venting, so I will need to keep the 20lbs as a back-up, and maybe rent a 'K' cylinder. I will have to call later today and get pricing...
 

viney266

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Nitrous Oxide on a motorcycle?

Yikes and Away!


I had a shop near Baltimore and we did many 40 and 60 HP "shots" on Litre class sportbikes. It really adds just that umpffff you need. Any more than that needs to be on something with much more tire. That's why I always liked seeing the rockets.

Agreed with others, with the right parts a good install is very safe and reliable. The movies hype it to be more than it is. I ran a 50/75 shot on our Ford focus wagon for years. It suprised quite a few 4.6 mustangs over the years.
 

JunKai

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Hi guys I am leading a first time university rocketry team from Singapore and we are looking at buying a HyperTEK M1000 4630cc Motor to be used in the Spaceport America Cup. Unfortunately, like a poster has mentioned we can't find suppliers for the GSE for M Class HyperTEK hybrids. We are currently brainstorming concepts for the GSE and scrounging for components.

Based on the old HypterTEK manuals, the team came up with a P*I diagram for the GSE.


HyperTek_GSE_Schematic.png


Does anyone have experience with designing GSEs for HyperTEK M Motors? Any feedback on our design would be great!

Oh and if anyone has the old GSE for the motor we would be happy to purchase them!
 

DRAGON64

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How far along are you in your research? Do you have the motor already? The only remaining two venders I knew for HyperTEK are Star Rocketry and Pratt-Hobbies. Star Rocketry is no more, and Pratt-Hobbies only sells Contrail Hybrids.

If you are not far along on your purchases, then I would reach out to @ContrailRockets, as they work closely with a number of different colleges. They have plenty of product available, and can help with the design of ground support equipment (not for HyperTEK).
 

kramer714

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Couple of problems..

Hard to learn - I used to fly HyperTEK, good performance but the hardest hybrid to launch. If you dont have experience with them, and have someone to show you how to set them up... you will most likely not be successful

Old Grains don't work - The grain is the motor case, if you have an old M grain, there is a good chance that they will CATO, if you have a misfire and cold nitrous runs down the grain, it is scrap.

Hypertek need a high voltage source to 'ignite' the oxygen, this causes the grain to start burning and releases the cable ties holding the drop stem in place, releasing the nitrous.... (sounds simple right?) You would need to add the high voltage transformer too.

SImplify the GSE - Why are you using labjack for the relays? Just use push buttons or toggle switches (rotary switch is a bad idea here), you do want to ad a 'solenoid saver', I just use a simple RC circuit.

Call Contrail - good motors, much simpler to launch, no GOX good vendor.
 

DRAGON64

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General question for fliers; what Krytox do you use? When I last shopped for Krytox, there was one option and it was costly. Now, it is still costly, and there is way more than one option, as a number of different flavors now show up on a search. Any help would be much appreciated.
 

dhbarr

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General question for fliers; what Krytox do you use? When I last shopped for Krytox, there was one option and it was costly. Now, it is still costly, and there is way more than one option, as a number of different flavors now show up on a search. Any help would be much appreciated.
I went to look it up, but it turns out that was you telling me about Krytox 205 🙃
 
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G_T

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If Trilube contains for instance Teflon, I'd probably avoid it. Teflon for instance is a high temperature oxidizer in its own right if for instance Al or Mg is present. And our motor tubes are generally Al. Some hybrid fuel is also metalized.

For Trilube's apparent intended usage, that is not a problem. For use in a rocket motor, might be a different story. The temperature range and chemical exposure is very different.

In reality, most anything is likely to work for small enough motors. As motors are scaled up, the heat (and reactive chemical) exposure at the grease is going to increase. At some point, the choice of grease might get a bit critical.

Yep, Krytox is annoyingly expensive. On my EX hybrid, I use Krytox at the injector end of things and at the top of the tank. I use the regular grease I use for solids at the nozzle. The nozzle is exposed to a reducing atmosphere in a hybrid. So I feel justified using a cheaper grease there.
 
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What Exactly Is Teflon?
7 Oct 2020 — Teflon is a brand name of a chemical coating, polytetrafluoroethylene (thankfully shortened and called PTFE). It was first made in the 1930s to ...
From the Krytox data sheet. Last line.. Data sheet attached. So it contains PTFE, Has a similar temperature performance and is a flourocarbon compound so no easily debonded hydrogen bonds.

I'd say it's VERY similar. It's an oxygen rated grease. With the same properties at half the price if you buy it from the right dive shop. If you just look for it without knowing about this particular dive shop it's the same price. Saying you cannot use any grease other than Krytox(tm) is like saying you can only use a Hoover to clean your carpet. I like Dyson but am not allowed to use it because it's not a Hoover.... :)
The Tribolube data sheet has a LOX impact rating. 0 Sensitivity for 20 impacts. So is suitable for LOX. There does not appear to be any information from Krytox on LOX impact sensitivity. LOX= Liquid Oxygen. Krytox has been overpriced for years........




Krytox TM GPL 105 Oil
Krytox TM GPL 105 oil is a clear, colorless, fluorinated synthetic
oil that is non-reactive, nonflammable, safe in chemical and
oxygen service, and is long lasting. Krytox TM is a PFPE—also
called perfluoroalkylether (PFAE) or perfluoropolyalkylether
(PFPAE)—with the following chemical structure:
F- (CF-CF 2 -O) n -CF 2 CF 3
|
CF 3
where n = 10–60
The polymer chain is completely saturated and contains
only carbon, oxygen, and fluorine. On a weight basis, a typical
Krytox TM oil contains 21.6% carbon, 9.4% oxygen, and 69.0%
fluorine.
Krytox TM GPL 205 Grease
Krytox TM GPL 205 grease is PTFE thickened
 

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benLuo

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Couple of problems..

Hard to learn - I used to fly HyperTEK, good performance but the hardest hybrid to launch. If you dont have experience with them, and have someone to show you how to set them up... you will most likely not be successful

Old Grains don't work - The grain is the motor case, if you have an old M grain, there is a good chance that they will CATO, if you have a misfire and cold nitrous runs down the grain, it is scrap.

Hypertek need a high voltage source to 'ignite' the oxygen, this causes the grain to start burning and releases the cable ties holding the drop stem in place, releasing the nitrous.... (sounds simple right?) You would need to add the high voltage transformer too.

SImplify the GSE - Why are you using labjack for the relays? Just use push buttons or toggle switches (rotary switch is a bad idea here), you do want to ad a 'solenoid saver', I just use a simple RC circuit.

Call Contrail - good motors, much simpler to launch, no GOX good vendor.

Does Contrail have any hybrids in the 9k Ns range? To my knowledge it seems like only HyperTEK has these impulse classes with a diameter of less than 100mm.

Ron McGough (Black Dog Rocketry) should be able to assist you with Ground Support Equipment.(GSE) He sold hybrids mainly Hypertec and Rattworks, but not sure what he's been up to recently. He is/was a Tripoli Prefect at ROC.

Cant seem to get to him via email :(. Is he in this forum?
 
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