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cherokeej

cherokeej

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I've pretty much exhausted my Google-fu. All I can find are really poor photos...

Can anyone point me in the direction of some technical drawings for the HVAR Holy Moses from WWII?

It seems we need to build an accurate replica for some folks, and they're in a hurry. I'm led to believe that in the near future, I'll have opportunity to get a hands on look at a de-milled real deal.

But because we will be working under a deadline, I thought I'd ask if anyone here might have or know of some drawings...

Much appreciated.
 
If you know someone in the Dayton, OH area, there is a inert airframe at the US Air Force museum.

John
 
Thank you for looking.

Wow. $1800 for an inert replica.

I wonder how much we should charge for a flying replica...
 
For the record, I've been looking as well, and haven't had much luck, either. Just some bad photos and general overall dimensions. I was at the museum in Dayton a couple of weeks ago, but don't recall seeing an HVAR.

Let me know if you find something useful!
 
Wow! Apparently this is one of those designs that is so simple and "Ho-Hum", that even though they were produced in large numbers, no one really cared about them very much.
They, or at least the motor/fin assembly portion were once used in clusters of 5 and 6 to power the Early Burner Test Vehicle and Cobra BTV for early ramjet technology research program, which lead to the TALOS, so I looked there for diagrams or schematics, but came up short there too.

I got the hard drive running, and spent an hour and a half clicking through stuff there too to little avail, though I found plenty of old pictures, black and white, and lacking in detail.

I'm at a dead end right now.
 
I just tried to find the N.A.C.A. Technical Reports on it, as those are commonly available in PDF format, but after finding nothing but irrelevant info and info about the research using the HVAR motor for things other than the HVAR, I once again got discouraged.
I have a ton of rocketry related N.A.C.A. PDFs on CD, but they are packed up with my Books in storage, and that would mean going through each box to find them, so sorry, that will have to wait til' I move and unpack my library.

That said, I know they, N.A.C.A., played around a lot with said rocket, so try researching with that included. (National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics).
 
OK, I poked around in the Defense Technical Information Service site, searching on HVAR. Two hits with *some* information, but not enough to make me happy:

https://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a213097.pdf

https://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/221587.pdf

You'll have to do a text search (ctl F) within each document to find stuff. But the contour of the nosecone isn't really covered. But they give overall fin dimensions in the first (p.230), and fin details and general discussion in the second (p 181).
 
PeterAlway said:
OK, I poked around in the Defense Technical Information Service site, searching on HVAR. Two hits with *some* information, but not enough to make me happy:

https://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a213097.pdf

https://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/221587.pdf

You'll have to do a text search (ctl F) within each document to find stuff. But the contour of the nosecone isn't really covered. But they give overall fin dimensions in the first (p.230), and fin details and general discussion in the second (p 181).
Click to expand...

I read those earlier. I too found them of little use, especially the water tunnel test one, as it showed variations of tested fin designs, and not an actual fin can with accurate details.

Clicking through those PDF's, page by god awful page, made me want to rip my hair out, especially the beginning pages of the fluid dynamics one!!!:mad::yawn::cry::cry::cry::hot::bang:
 
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It's too bad you wanted the details for that rocket and not the folding fin "Zuni".
I found some detailed stuff on that one, and will re-visit it to see if I can find a lead or two in the bibliographies or some such.
Perhaps a simple broad "Unguided Air to Surface Missiles Design Schematics" search is in order.

The Zuni is essentially the HVAR with folding fins, and this PDF has the Fuze dimensions for the three 5" Rocket Fuzes available at the time.

https://www.chinalakealumni.org/Downloads/1959 D149ZUNI 5.0 FFAR.pdf
 
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Alright, I give up for tonight!!!

:yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:


Why this rocket?

I now know more about this BORING rocket than I ever wanted to know, so, what makes it special???
 
TopRamen said:
Alright, I give up for tonight!!!

:yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:


Why this rocket?

I now know more about this BORING rocket than I ever wanted to know, so, what makes it special???
Click to expand...

Might be boring to some but I saw this thread and had it on my list.
Our mother got her start in drafting then engineering when all the men went off to fight in WWII.
She told me she went to China Lake Proving Ground in the early fifties to design and assemble the new HVARs for the Navy.
It was such a new design update for the HVAR that they wanted them battle-ready yesterday. They were assembling them on medical gurneys in the hall and shipping them off to Korea.
It was a newer, tank-busting air to surface unguided rocket.
I plan to build a replica......yeah, I can say my Mom built that.
That was a stepping stone to an engineer position for her in ~1952 at Savannah River Plant, now SRS. She assisted with loading their first reactor to come online....that's another story....among other things she designed the Plutonium spheres for the GE R.I.G.s that powered both Voyager probes, I think they are still producing power for almost 40 years!
 
Dave A said:
Might be boring to some but I saw this thread and had it on my list.
Our mother got her start in drafting then engineering when all the men went off to fight in WWII.
She told me she went to China Lake Proving Ground in the early fifties to design and assemble the new HVARs for the Navy.
It was such a new design update for the HVAR that they wanted them battle-ready yesterday. They were assembling them on medical gurneys in the hall and shipping them off to Korea.
It was a newer, tank-busting air to surface unguided rocket.
I plan to build a replica......yeah, I can say my Mom built that.
That was a stepping stone to an engineer position for her in ~1952 at Savannah River Plant, now SRS. She assisted with loading their first reactor to come online....that's another story....among other things she designed the Plutonium spheres for the GE R.I.G.s that powered both Voyager probes, I think they are still producing power for almost 40 years!
Click to expand...

That's as valid a reason as any to want to build one, and a good reason too.:)

I actually used "China Lake" in my searches, but only found pics' of them mounted to aircraft and a grainy pic of what I believe to be one impacting a test target.
The NACA folks seemed to play with them at Wallops, which I figure means they were shooting them vertically or laboratory testing them, but that is only an assumption based on other things tested at Wallops. That search turned up no useful items.

I do remember seeing something about Firestone Tire and Rubber??? making them, I think, so I will follow that lead later, along with spending more time on the Czech and Russian sites with translator.
I have to go to the VA today, so it won't be til' later.
I'de also like to find the source material from those nice line drawings of the hardpoints that I got from the Russian modelers site.
 
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Mom told me that the HVAR project was such a big deal, they built a full scale section of a flight deck with catapult (assuming catapults were already in use at sea) on the desert floor. They launch tested planes with dummy then live rounds to make sure they were battle ready, amazing.
 
She had a Top Secret clearance at that time due to all the research and development they were conducting. I plan to eventually do a FIA request to see if I can get any documentation with her name on it. She told me there were CalTech grads running around on the far side of the proving ground wearing "Q" badges. She thought "what the hell was a Q clearance?" She was furious that someone with a Top Secret was told "that stuff was none of her business." Them boys were working on delivering nuke rounds via rockers! That's ok, she got her own Q clearance at SRP in Aiken, SC.
 
Wow! A big Thank You to misters Ramen and Alway! Actual data on this thing...

And Dave... That's a VERY cool story about your mom! You've gotta build one!

Why THIS rocket?

I can't go into it yet. But this is it. The Holy Moses from WWII. That's what they want. A flying replica.

And it's starting to look like they need it before May. Have to wait and see if what's behind this actually materializes. I have no idea if we can pull off what they want within their time frame. But if they'll provide the funds, we can give it a shot.

I'm told that there's a collector not too awful far from me that has a couple of de-milled HVARs that I can put my grubbies on. But he's "out of town" right now. So if or when I'll get access I don't know. But I understand they want an accurate representation of an HVAR, that we can launch. Of course, ours will have an accelerometer and a chute in the nosecone, and launch vertically. So it won't be too authentic. :y:

Already been window shopping 5" airframes at Rocketry Warehouse. A 48" tube, a 4:1 ogive n/c, a 98mm mmt, and a hunk of FR4 seems to be just what the doctor ordered. Gonna have to brainstorm recreating the "hardware store" look of that fin can. A trip to Homer's De-Pot might be in order, once I can get a look at one of the de-milled units.
 
Dave A said:
She had a Top Secret clearance at that time due to all the research and development they were conducting. I plan to eventually do a FIA request to see if I can get any documentation with her name on it. She told me there were CalTech grads running around on the far side of the proving ground wearing "Q" badges. She thought "what the hell was a Q clearance?" She was furious that someone with a Top Secret was told "that stuff was none of her business." Them boys were working on delivering nuke rounds via rockers! That's ok, she got her own Q clearance at SRP in Aiken, SC.
Click to expand...

Here's a link to some of the CalTech HVAR info.:)

Caltech's Other Rocket Project: Personal Recollections

https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/3672/1/Snyder.pdf

CalTech also has some papers by Physicist William A. Fowler in their library, but it is in boxes, and not available in PDF format.
Among said papers is apparently one called, "U.S. Navy 5.0" "High Velocity Aircraft Rocket, Description and Performance", June 23, 1944.

I'm not going there to dig around, but if you are in the neighborhood, you may be able to access the Data.
He also did one about the effect of the HVAR's fin design on dispersion, and that likely has detailed drawings in it too.

It would be nice to get into that library and all those boxes!!!
 
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I do have to admit, the rocket as a whole actually is not so boring as I thought, since I am learning quite a bit and refining my research skills along the way.
 
Oh dear! I went and found the NACA DVD+R DL disc.
Yes, it has EVERYTHING they ever wrote a report on from 1929-1956, but it is listed by year and report number. To find out what is on each report, you have to open it. There are over a hundred for each year for most and sometimes more.
I will start cataloging it later tonight, so as to have a list.
I'll also shoot a PM to the forum member here who gave me the disc, and ask him if he has an index that says what each report is in reference to.

Why an internal combustion engine knocks and pings is of little interest to our rocketry endeavors.

I did find this PDF with a google search for "NACA Reports index" : https://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a307064.pdf

Looks like I'll want to focus on ones with a WR in the number, as that prefix denotes "Wartime Report".
It's a start anyhow.

The good news is that it was in a box of my reference materials on missiles and fighter aircraft, so I grabbed the whole box, and can start thumbing through them for references to the HVAR.:)
 
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More good news!
Upon getting the disc open for the second time, and sitting down with coffee and a pen and paper, I found the index, which was not marked index, but rather a seperate section of years with CIT after the year.
The 5" HVAR's began being airlifted to the Pacific after testing had concluded in 44', so I'll start looking in 43', but if the only thing they did to the FFAR to make it the HVAR was upgrade the motor, I may find some data earlier.

Will report back when I learn something.:)
 
Well, that was a dead end.:(

At one point I thought I may have found something, an April 1944 WR-L-28 ARR D18. Something to do with the effects of fin stabilized bodies attached to aircraft wings, but that turned out to be about a test of a cable towed rocket shaped object. Nothing to do with actual armaments loadouts, and in typical NACA fashion, one or two diagrams, preceded by an inordinate pile of meaningless to me mathematical equations. :mad:

Oh well, at least now I'm familiar with the kind of data that is on the disc, and will know where to look if I ever want to know about the effects of stuff on other stuff that I'll probably never need to know.:)

Oh, and there was no magical dimensional line drawing in any of my fighter bomber books, nor the missile and rockets books. Just a few pics' and loadout data.

Perhaps some research into the aircraft that carried them may reveal a schematic???:confused:

About now I would say that your best bet would be to use the data from the OP 1855 Missile Launcher Catalog (https://www.maritime.org/doc/launchers/cat-0066.htm), to get your line drawing, then erase the mounting points so that all you have is the nice line drawing of the rocket. Then draw in the dimensions by hand with a ruler and scale them. At least every aspect of the rocket can be seen, as it has no boosters or parts that cover other parts.

It is NOT boring, but it is after all, four fins and a nose cone.

There's plenty of stuff like this: https://archive.hnsa.org/doc/ordnance/pg171.htm

Perhaps a Naval Varient can be found in more detail?
 
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Well sir... You have gone above and beyond. And I greatly appreciate the help.

Hopefully, I'll find out this weekend if and when I can get to meet the collector that has a few of the de-milled HVARs. I do have my camera and notebook at the ready. When I get some solid data on that fincan and the markings, I'll post the info here, and share the wealth, as you have.
 
cherokeej said:
Well sir... You have gone above and beyond. And I greatly appreciate the help.

Hopefully, I'll find out this weekend if and when I can get to meet the collector that has a few of the de-milled HVARs. I do have my camera and notebook at the ready. When I get some solid data on that fincan and the markings, I'll post the info here, and share the wealth, as you have.
Click to expand...



No problem. It's been my pleasure to help in the research, and look forward to seeing you come up with a successful model!

Most folks here are always willing to help me out with scaling and math things, so the least I can do is pay it forward by doing research.

I actually spent some more time on it this morning, looking through the China Lake photo archives, hoping to see a schematic on the wall in the background of one of the labs, figuring it could be zoomed in on and/or cropped, but to no avail.
I also went to the 1944 issues of a Navy publication, as they had some chronological listings in each issue of what went on, then tried to see when attacks on ground targets listed were conducted with "Planes" instead of bombers, and which units conducted said attacks, and then did some digging to see if the attacks involved rockets.
On the 13th of July Task Force 58 lost 157 planes conducting attacks on ground based targets like enemy airfields, so I took that to mean that they were coming in and lining up to fire rockets, making them vulnerable to enemy fire, but further digging turned up nothing of merit.

I'll go find the link again. Really interesting stuff. JATO launching planes and bombers was all the rage back in the day apparently.

DANG! Can't find the link to the PDF's, but the magazine was called "All Hands", and featured all sorts of cool stuff.


I'm going to dig some more into the post war NACA stuff, and see what I can find in the files about the Burner Test Vehicles that used the HVAR bodies.
 
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