HPR Staged kits?

[ttabbal]

I'm wanting to do a staged HPR build. I'm not opposed to scratch building, but I was wondering if there are kits out there that people like and recommend. Always nice to know what the options are. I'm thinking 38mm, maybe with a 54mm booster. Mostly because I already have the hardware I would need for the flights. I'll use a CTI motor for the upper stage to keep ignition easy. Probably AT for the booster unless I decide to go nuts and use a Skyripper.

 

[highpowerrocket]

Check out the PML kits. I know they have even upsized a Quantum Leap to a 4" diameter version upon request.

 

[MaxQ]

I'm wanting to do a staged HPR build. I'm not opposed to scratch building, but I was wondering if there are kits out there that people like and recommend. Always nice to know what the options are. I'm thinking 38mm, maybe with a 54mm booster. Mostly because I already have the hardware I would need for the flights. I'll use a CTI motor for the upper stage to keep ignition easy. Probably AT for the booster unless I decide to go nuts and use a Skyripper.

You got the right idea with the CTI sustainer motor.

Waiting for that sustainer to light while it is still going in the correct direction (up) is the exciting (maybe "nervewracking") part.

Of course a lot depends on what electronics you are using - as much as the rocket kit.

You've done some composite staging?

 

[ttabbal]

You got the right idea with the CTI sustainer motor.

Waiting for that sustainer to light while it is still going in the correct direction (up) is the exciting (maybe "nervewracking") part.

Of course a lot depends on what electronics you are using - as much as the rocket kit.

You've done some composite staging?

Nope. No composite staging yet, just the BP stuff. Loads of DD/Electronics though, so I'm somewhat familiar with the failure modes there. I haven't decided on the electronics for the staging yet. I've been using MAWDs for my DD stuff. So I need something to light the sustainer. I was thinking of using one of my MAWDs for deploying the chute on the booster. I suppose I could go with motor ejection there though. I've seen some rather simple timer based setups for staging. Those seem pretty reliable, so long as I don't set them to something stupid.

I'm open for suggestions on reliable staging electronics. It would be really nice if the electronics could detect a significant "not up" condition and not ignite the sustainer. I'd like to avoid any horizontal rocket flights. The sustainer will be DD, so if I didn't get ignition, it should just deploy the recovery.

If the current idea seems too complex for a first composite staged rocket, I've also considered upscaling a fliskits frick-and-frack to use 29mm hobbyline motors.... :roll:

 

[ttabbal]

Check out the PML kits. I know they have even upsized a Quantum Leap to a 4" diameter version upon request.

Thanks. I'll check them out.

 

[MaxQ]

Nope. No composite staging yet, just the BP stuff. Loads of DD/Electronics though, so I'm somewhat familiar with the failure modes there. I haven't decided on the electronics for the staging yet. I've been using MAWDs for my DD stuff. So I need something to light the sustainer. I was thinking of using one of my MAWDs for deploying the chute on the booster. I suppose I could go with motor ejection there though. I've seen some rather simple timer based setups for staging. Those seem pretty reliable, so long as I don't set them to something stupid.

I'm open for suggestions on reliable staging electronics. It would be really nice if the electronics could detect a significant "not up" condition and not ignite the sustainer. I'd like to avoid any horizontal rocket flights. The sustainer will be DD, so if I didn't get ignition, it should just deploy the recovery.

If the current idea seems too complex for a first composite staged rocket, I've also considered upscaling a fliskits frick-and-frack to use 29mm hobbyline motors.... :roll:

I've been using an older model GWiz for composite staging and haven't had a sustainer fail to light yet.

My first outing was with an Aerobee Hi and it staged very nicely on its first flight.
The subsequent flights were all confidence builders and very satisfying.

I have a large 1/3 scale scratch built Wac corporal that is designed around Loki 38mm hardware...the sustainer has flown several times but I got a little nervous about flying it two stage after seeing an interstage fail on a large two stage project.
Of course the interstage of the Wac has a scale like framework...a tube coupler style interstage like the Quantum Leap or Nike Terrier maybe stonger and easier to align.

If you design it... consider the fit of the interstage area.
I'd love to see a "Basics of two stage composite motor rocketry design" resurected here...


IMHO - I think it wise to progress carefully with composite staging as the failure modes can have a nasty "downside" ..especially when you get into large motors. There are a couple of bad ones in the Rockets DVD "cool flights and really cool flights".
Seeing what was left after an M two stager turned around midflight and then fired the sustainer back into the launching area was sobering to say the least..............

I'm looking into this adept device.....for my three stage project. I like the failsafe concept for the third stage...
Adept ES236LH Dual Sequential Stager™
https://www.adeptrocketry.com/ES236.htm

 

[ttabbal]

I've been using an older model GWiz for composite staging and haven't had a sustainer fail to light yet.

My first outing was with an Aerobee Hi and it staged very nicely on its first flight.
The subsequent flights were all confidence builders and very satisfying.

I have a large 1/3 scale scratch built Wac corporal that is designed around Loki 38mm hardware...the sustainer has flown several times but I got a little nervous about flying it two stage after seeing an interstage fail on a large two stage project.
Of course the interstage of the Wac has a scale like framework...a tube coupler style interstage like the Quantum Leap or Nike Terrier maybe stonger and easier to align.

If you design it... consider the fit of the interstage area.
I'd love to see a "Basics of two stage composite motor rocketry design" resurected here...


IMHO - I think it wise to progress carefully with composite staging as the failure modes can have a nasty "downside" ..especially when you get into large motors. There are a couple of bad ones in the Rockets DVD "cool flights and really cool flights".
Seeing what was left after an M two stager turned around midflight and then fired the sustainer back into the launching area was sobering to say the least..............

I'm looking into this adept device.....for my three stage project. I like the failsafe concept for the third stage...
Adept ES236LH Dual Sequential Stager™
https://www.adeptrocketry.com/ES236.htm

I've seen the Aerobee-Hi fly, I don't know why I didn't think of that one. It's a fun rocket. That Adept stager looks really nice. I might have to order me one of those. I'm not plotting any 3-stage stuff, but if I do, it would be nice to have available.

I'm trying to plan carefully to avoid a rocket under thrust hitting the crowd. Not a good thing.

If I design or buy a kit, I'll be posting along the way with pics and such. Maybe do a full out build thread. Hopefully it will help others, that's why we're here, right?

PML has some nice docs on their website about interstage coupler design and how to design the sustainer stage to accept them. Good stuff.

 

[MaxQ]

I've seen the Aerobee-Hi fly, I don't know why I didn't think of that one. It's a fun rocket. That Adept stager looks really nice. I might have to order me one of those. I'm not plotting any 3-stage stuff, but if I do, it would be nice to have available.

I'm trying to plan carefully to avoid a rocket under thrust hitting the crowd. Not a good thing.

If I design or buy a kit, I'll be posting along the way with pics and such. Maybe do a full out build thread. Hopefully it will help others, that's why we're here, right?

PML has some nice docs on their website about interstage coupler design and how to design the sustainer stage to accept them. Good stuff.

I have a Quantum Leap...was to be my first two stager but I did the Aerobee Hi instead and then basically upscaled that into the Wac ...I scratch built the Nike Terrier and that is ready to go two stage after my recent sustainer test flight...

PML has (or did have) a 2 stage Thunder and Lightning that looks good....

If you get this going, by all means, post a build thread and tell us about it...

 

[dixontj93060]

I have two HPR two-stage kits on the build docket. I have examined the parts/fit and they both are of decent quality (although have different build philosophies behind them). Both kits are 54mm to 54mm, one is a 3" airframe, the other 4". Unfortunately, I don't know if you can get either of these kits at this point as I purchased them both some time back during sales/NAR discounts, etc. (and also got extra parts for dual deploy, et. al). In any case, the first is the U.S. Rockets Sonic 3100 Phase 2 and the second is the Rocket Dynamic Systems' Orion.

 

[Pantherjon]

I believe RDS is back up and you should be able to get the Orion from them..That is a pretty cool looking rocket, and not a bad price either!

 

[highpowerrocket]

Most timers are pretty simple and reliable. The Missileworks PET has some nice safety features. I'm not aware of any commercial timer or staging electronics that prohibits sustainer ignition based on rocket orientation. So it's important to start out with some proven designs and techniques. The CTI motor in the sustainer is a good approach but you can achieve the same reliability with other motors like Aerotech. For more info checkout my multi-stage experiences at https://home.roadrunner.com/~highpowerrocket/.

 

[MaxQ]

As always...nice website.
say, whats the deal on that Standard missile?

Stability problems on boost...3/4 loop?
Any idea what was going on with that?

 

[ttabbal]

Most timers are pretty simple and reliable. The Missileworks PET has some nice safety features. I'm not aware of any commercial timer or staging electronics that prohibits sustainer ignition based on rocket orientation. So it's important to start out with some proven designs and techniques. The CTI motor in the sustainer is a good approach but you can achieve the same reliability with other motors like Aerotech. For more info checkout my multi-stage experiences at https://home.roadrunner.com/~highpowerrocket/.

Thanks for the site. There's some great info there. I know about using dipped ematches and such for AT motors, but I already have the CTI cases, so it's not like I'm out anything to use them. And I can start with a more commercial solution for the first flights. Less for me to screw up.

It sounds like there are a few schools of thought for separation of the booster. The local guys seem to prefer drag separation, but I see a number of people using BP charges as well. Is there any disadvantage to using a BP charge? I would think the pro would be that you could use shear pins or tighter fitting joints to prevent separation on the pad. Of course, there are other ways to handle that problem as well. From a "looks cool" perspective, I like the idea of a BP charge, but could it destabilize the rocket? It doesn't seem to cause issues with the BP staged rockets I've flown.

 

[Zack Lau]

A magnetic apogee detector might be useful for detecting a severe flight anomaly, and aborting the flight to safe recovery mode, rather than 2nd stage ignition.

https://www.aeroconsystems.com/electronics/mad.htm

 

[WillMarchant]

A magnetic apogee detector might be useful for detecting a severe flight anomaly, and aborting the flight to safe recovery mode, rather than 2nd stage ignition.

https://www.aeroconsystems.com/electronics/mad.htm

CAR appears to be wrestling with this and the page at https://www.canadianrocketry.org/index.php?news=41 has some information.

 

[highpowerrocket]

The most probable cause of the Standard missile instability was disturbed airflow over the booster fins after booster motor burnout. Unlike most two-stage rockets the Standard is very unstable before separation without the booster fins.

For future reference if you choose to use Aerotech motors in the sustainer, you can also epoxy a Pyrodex pellet at the forward end of the motor core (same ignition source that CTI uses).

I have never used drag separation so I really can't offer any advice there. Like the real thing I prefer a controlled separation. Friction fit is all that is required when using a standard coupler to connect the stages (shear pins not required). I have never had a problem using this technique with or without the BP separation charge. However, I would recommend the separation charge to avoid booster damage from the sustainer exhaust.