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#### TMJ

##### "Where the heck'd it go!"
Greetings all!
I've decided to take the leap from small 'E' size rockets into the 'High Power' realm. I've purchased a Madcow 4" Frenzy with 50" chute, 12"x12" chute protector... and a removable altimeter bay (haven't purchased an altimeter, yet). Delivery of my rocket kit is estimated to be two days from now. I can't wait 'til it gets here!!!

My first question is rather simple, however. It's confusing to me, being somewhat ignorant at this point in the game. 'Electronics' have me befuddled. I not only want dual deployment capabilities, but also some input as to the proper size of a 'drogue' chute that I should use, for primary deployment, prior to the main chute blossoming. I'm clueless as to what I really need. Additional electronic 'bells and whistles' don't scare me. I really wouldn't mind an accelerometer, tracking capabilities, etc.. "Sooooo,"... what would you folks recommend? Simple altimeter to fancy 'bells and whistles'... I'd truly appreciate your feedback/suggestions for all types of systems, where to buy them, etc.!
Thanks,
Tom...

#### noffie79

##### Well-Known Member
The purpose of a drogue chute is to keep your booster and payload sections from banging into each other on the way down. I've seen people fly without a drogue in dead calm weather, but they have plenty of harness in between the two, so a drogue wasn't necessary. I have a 4" Madcow PAC-3 and it weighs 120oz. without the motor. I used a 15" chute for my drogue and it worked great. As for electronics, there's so many to choose from, but I think a lot of them are able to be flown out of the box, but are customizable to whatever you want it to do as far as events at apogee and your main deployment elevation.

#### Crash-n-Burn

##### Well-Known Member
Welcome to HPR. You have a great rocket for Level 1 and 2 certifications. Did you get the fibreboard or fiberglass model?

#### MaxQ

##### Tripoli 2747
When investing in that first altimeter I think it is best to think about what you will want to do after dual deployment, you can go less expensive at first, but before long you may want something that does more, with multiple functions, and flight data recording.

My first investment was a long time ago, I only wanted to know what altitude I got, and that made it inexpensive...but I outgrew that unit overnight. I then invested in a dual event Adept barometric unit for basic DD chores (apogee event , preset altitude main deployment event, and altitude recording).

I got into staging and clustered airstarts quickly and the GWiz accelerometer units (now OOP) offered those features along with the previous DD functions.

Guys in my club all favor Missileworks RRC variants and Perfectflite units, I'm very interested in their Stratologger unit, might be my next purchase.

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#### nmartin

##### Well-Known Member
Hello - I am also building a non fiberglass Madcow 4" Frenzy. I'll send you some pictures of my progress tonight. I'll also send some pictures of other electronic bays I've built. I AM NOT AN EXPERT - I have A LOT to learn. I have put a lot of thought and reading into this build. Maybe what I have learn will help you have a successful first dual deploy flight. I also hope other members will give their insights that will help both of us as well. My dual deploy skill need to be improved.

#### Cory

##### Well-Known Member
GOOD LUCK - HPR is friggin AWESOME!
A few thoughts from my experience.

Drogue vs. Drogueless - I have flown both ways and either will work. The problem with drogueless is a lack of anything to see between apogee and main besides the puff of smoke indicating an event, also the risk of the separated parts colliding is much higher without the control of a drogue. Regardless of rocket weight, if using a drogue I go with a 15" with spillhole connected nearer the nose/main section so hopefully the fin-can will be falling below the main compartment allowing the main to open in clean air. Undoubtedly though more drogue=more drift compared to the average 100 fps descent rate I have observed going no drogue.

Electronics - 1st, I highly recommend designing and building ebays with full redundancy using disimiliar altimeters. I usually set one altimeter as main, other as backup with 2-3 second delay at apogee and 100-300 ft lower main setting hooked to charges at double the rate indicated necessary in ground testing. Switches come in many forms, all have their +/-. I personally prefer Adrian's (Raven) screw and magnetic type switches. I only have experience with PerfectFlite and Missile Works altimeters, primarily because they have flawlessly served with all the features I have needed. Check out Dog House for what I consider almost cheating with their super easy to use, super effective wiring harnesses, terminals, charge wells, and rotary type switches. I also highly recommend tracking with Big Red Bee's BRB900 GPS unit with LCD ground station (No HAM license necessary). I typically mount the GPS in the NC away from any other electronics to avoid interference.
Also, if you need a harness [email protected] onebadhawk is the man!
https://doghouse.blastzone.org/
https://www.missileworks.com/
https://perfectflite.com/
https://bigredbee.com/

Check out my build thread from last season for more pictures and explanation of how I go about designing and executing with these various products.
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#### kidrobo

##### Active Member
If you know how to solder you might look into EggTimer. I have the EggTimer TRS with LCD which does flight data recording, dual deploy, and GPS tracking. It comes as a kit with the printed board and surface mount components. Wasn't too difficult even though it was my first attempt at soldering components that were that small. I got mine during the black Friday sale which was a killer deal.

I also have the Altus Metrum EasyMini which is a sweet little altimeter that does data recording and dual deploy. The AltOS software used to pull/display data and configure the altimeter is very easy to use.

You can see both below on a sled that fit in my 2.6" Wildman Darkstar's 6" coupler. Used cut down 30-06 cases for charge wells.

#### TMJ

##### "Where the heck'd it go!"
Thanks noffie. I just learned something new! I was thinking that the drogue was simply used to slow the decent, slightly, while also reducing long distance drifting prior to main chute deployment. I'm kinda lazy and would prefer to recover my rockets without a cross country trek, if possible. That's why I'm interested in dual deployment thing.

#### TMJ

##### "Where the heck'd it go!"
I bought the cheaper fibreboard model.

#### TMJ

##### "Where the heck'd it go!"
Thanks MaxQ! Very informative and nice to know info. I'm looking at the RRC variants. I know 'me', and yes... I'd be quickly dissapointed if I didn't buy something more advanced, up front. Not being totally familiar with the 'blurbage' listed as features, I'm currently looking for the most 'blurbage', if that makes any sense! I'll figure out what it all means as I go...

#### TMJ

##### "Where the heck'd it go!"
nmartin... by all means send photos! I'll do the same! Sounds fun!

#### TMJ

##### "Where the heck'd it go!"
Cory, you said a lot. I really like your use of redundant systems. I, myself, have sometimes employed redundant systems in a few of my R/C airplanes. So far, I've never had any problems requiring backups, but hey. "You never know!" Two thumbs up for redundant systems!!!

#### TMJ

##### "Where the heck'd it go!"
kidrobo... that's good food for thought. I might give it a try sometime soon. I'm a DIY guy from way back. Thanks for letting me know about the EggTimer thing!

#### TMJ

##### "Where the heck'd it go!"
The purpose of a drogue chute is to keep your booster and payload sections from banging into each other on the way down. I've seen people fly without a drogue in dead calm weather, but they have plenty of harness in between the two, so a drogue wasn't necessary. I have a 4" Madcow PAC-3 and it weighs 120oz. without the motor. I used a 15" chute for my drogue and it worked great. As for electronics, there's so many to choose from, but I think a lot of them are able to be flown out of the box, but are customizable to whatever you want it to do as far as events at apogee and your main deployment elevation.
***

noffie, I believe that my Frenzy weighs less than your 120oz. PAC-3. Would a 15" drogue still be a good choice for my Frenzy, or should I go with a smaller drogue chute?

#### noffie79

##### Well-Known Member
***

noffie, I believe that my Frenzy weighs less than your 120oz. PAC-3. Would a 15" drogue still be a good choice for my Frenzy, or should I go with a smaller drogue chute?
The 4" PAC-3 and the 4" Frenzy are the exact same size. Madcow lists the PAC-3 at 60oz and the Frenzy at 76oz. I'm pretty sure that weight doesn't include harnesses, chutes, electronics, etc. The 120oz. mine weighs in at is ready for flight, minus motor. I'm sure a 15" drogue would be fine for you as well. I have a Wildman Demon that weighs 140oz. and I'll use the same 15" Fruity Chute with a spill hole.

#### TMJ

##### "Where the heck'd it go!"
The 4" PAC-3 and the 4" Frenzy are the exact same size. Madcow lists the PAC-3 at 60oz and the Frenzy at 76oz. I'm pretty sure that weight doesn't include harnesses, chutes, electronics, etc. The 120oz. mine weighs in at is ready for flight, minus motor. I'm sure a 15" drogue would be fine for you as well. I have a Wildman Demon that weighs 140oz. and I'll use the same 15" Fruity Chute with a spill hole.
Many thanks. Who would you suggest that I buy my chute(s) from? Madcow doesn't mention any chutes with 'spill holes'. Also, I'm currently looking at Madcow's RRC3 Sport Altimeter for $69.95. Any thoughts on this? Is it good, or would you suggest something else? #### noffie79 ##### Well-Known Member Many thanks. Who would you suggest that I buy my chute(s) from? Madcow doesn't mention any chutes with 'spill holes'. Also, I'm currently looking at Madcow's RRC3 Sport Altimeter for$69.95. Any thoughts on this? Is it good, or would you suggest something else?
Any chute that Madcow sells will be fine. I use Fruity Chutes, but they are a premium chute. Much better quality in my opinion. But there are lots of good chutes out there, so definitively shop around. I have the MissileWorks RRC3, but haven't used it yet. My PAC-3 has an RRC2 Mini onboard. That one worked great. Same as the chutes, there are lots of options for electronics.

#### DavidMcCann

##### Well-Known Member
Missile works (https://www.missileworks.com/products/) makes the RRC3, Madcow sells it (as do others) I've had a couple, and the RRC2+ as well. Great and easy to use. The software is nice for post flight info-

But you'll need to find a separate tracker to use if you plan to fly much over 3,000 feet ( my personal limit for flying without one in a rocket this size, opinions will vary)

Chutes- Fruity chutes, Rocketman, or Recon chutes are all excellent. Top Flight are well made and less expensive than the other options, but perfectly fine.

#### MaxQ

##### Tripoli 2747
Any chute that Madcow sells will be fine. I use Fruity Chutes, but they are a premium chute. Much better quality in my opinion. But there are lots of good chutes out there, so definitively shop around. I have the MissileWorks RRC3, but haven't used it yet. My PAC-3 has an RRC2 Mini onboard. That one worked great. Same as the chutes, there are lots of options for electronics.
I've got to check out Fruity chutes.. I've been a confirmed Spherachutes fan, but like you say...options.

#### TMJ

##### "Where the heck'd it go!"
Missile works (https://www.missileworks.com/products/) makes the RRC3, Madcow sells it (as do others) I've had a couple, and the RRC2+ as well. Great and easy to use. The software is nice for post flight info-

But you'll need to find a separate tracker to use if you plan to fly much over 3,000 feet ( my personal limit for flying without one in a rocket this size, opinions will vary)

Chutes- Fruity chutes, Rocketman, or Recon chutes are all excellent. Top Flight are well made and less expensive than the other options, but perfectly fine.
***
David, thanks for the altimeter review and the web link. You just cost me $170 bucks!!! I bought the the RRC3 'Extreme' and the compatible LCD terminal. Don't really need the 'extreme', but what the heck. It was only$10 bucks more than the RRC3. Why not?

#### noffie79

##### Well-Known Member
The chute I use for my main is a 44" LOC Angel chute. I love that thing. Good quality, three shroud lines (less to get tangled) and it rotates when it descends, creating a small amount of "lift", so a smaller chute does the same work as a bigger chute. It has a higher Cd than a Fruity. And it was cheaper.

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
Typo... \$127 dollars is what I spent... sorry...
You wont be sorry with the RRC3 setup, and soon Jim Amos will be releasing the Rtx tracking and telemetry unit that can interface with the RRC3 for all kinds of rocketry goodness.

#### nmartin

##### Well-Known Member
Here is my progress.

#### nmartin

##### Well-Known Member
I'm going to use one as a backup to the main.

#### TMJ

##### "Where the heck'd it go!"
Looks 'SWEET'! Is that green anodized aluminum that I see? Dual charge holders? Please explain!!! Also, I tried to post a picture, but cannot figure out how to do it, here. I saved the pic in .jpg format, selected 'insert picture', selected the picture, then hit upload. Nothing showed up. How Do I post pictures in this forum?

#### TMJ

##### "Where the heck'd it go!"
I keep looking over the 'Fruity Chutes' Iris designs. They do, indeed, command a premium price, however. They also seem to be extremely worthy in both design/function. Seeing hows my rocket will likely be worth 3-4 times the cost of a set of fruity chutes, when all is finally said and done... not a bad investment for piece of mind. Thanks again. You likely just cost me 'another' chunk of change! :wink:

#### dhbarr

##### Amateur Professional
This line of logic is why I'm eyeballing dual JLCR, dual peregrine CO2, FC Iris. I should sell something large :-D