HPR Motor availability

[marshall1031]

It's very hard waiting the days out until my new Armageddon kit comes, I can't wait to start building! But anyways, I've been hearing about the availability of high power engines and new regulations. I didn't want to start up a new post, so can anyone tell me what's going on with them? Are high power engines going to be hard to get in the near future? Please tell me no!

 

[Neil]

If you dont know where to go, they are VERY difficult to get. But, if you have all the HPR vendors on your Fauvorites page.... Here they are:Great Lakes Hobbies Rocketmotion Giant Leap Rocketry Magnum Performance Hobbies Hobby Connection Commonwealth Displays These are only mid-powerd motors, but they ship fast. Another MPR vendor You can find practically any motor you want at one of these pages. Stay away from Discount Hobby Center. They take about 2-8 months to get your order to you, and they have horrible customer service. You can do a search for them in the "search" section of TRF, and you will get a lot of results. Good luck finding motors!

False Statement - Edited by TRF Moderators

 

[Ryan S.]

Motors arent that hard to come by. Pro38 motors are readily available. Some Aerotech motors are hard to come by but Aerotech is producing motors and you can find them at places like Magnum.

The LEUP thing is very confusing. You also need a cert to buy those HPR motors.

Good luck!

Eroneous Statement - Edited by TRF Moderators

 

[n3tjm]

Just remember that if you are not certified, and under age, it is not legal for you to have high power reload kits in your range box. It will get you in trouble, your legal gaurdians in trouble, the club you fly with, and the hobby in general in trouble. I am sure you understand this, and a licensed adult is holding the loads for you, and is present when you use them... we don't want to cause anymore trouble... do we?

 

[Neil]

My dad and I ....

Problem Statement - Edited by TRF Moderators

 

[LMazza]

As I understand it you cannot take a HPR motor home with you from a launch without a LEUP. In other words it cannot be in your possesion.

When my dad's L1 cert was rained (fogged) out, we were required to let someone with a LEUP take the recently built motor home with them until the next launch.

 

[Neil]

I believe that as long as it is an easy-access motor...

False Statement - Edited by TRF Moderators

 

[marshall1031]

Thanks for the info guys. Just to let you guys know, I'm 18, I'm not certified yet, and I don't think I can an LEUP until I'm 21. But don't worry, I just joined the NAR and I'm getting my level one as soon as I can build my new rocket kit, and from there my goal is getting my level 2 and 3 certifications hopefully by summer. I guess my real question is availability of the larger 98mm motors like M's and N's, are these going to be hard for me to get in the future? Also, how do I buy motors if I don't know anyone in my area with an LEUP?

 

[Neil]

You dont...

False Statement - Edited by TRF Moderators

 

[marshall1031]

Alright, but my main concern was availability of the large 98mm M's and N's in the future. These are the kinds of motors which I would like to use at every launch once I get a level three, that's why I'm wondering. Thanks.

 

[firemanup]

Magnum's web page shows M motors in stock right now, they're being produced again so in my opinion you're not going to have a terribly hard time finding motors.

My suggestion though would be to take these things one step at a time. Work on your Level one and get it then go on to the next steps, again my suggestion one at a time.

There's a whole range of level one motors to have fun with as well as rockets before getting to worried about running out of options and having to move on to the next step.

Not to mention staging, electronics, clustering, etc. etc..

Have fun and enjoy it along the way..... good luck

 

[Austin]

There were many false statements made in this thread regarding the legal purchase of HPR motors and LEUP's. While I am sure this was not the intent, the Moderators of TRF have removed said comments.

Best Regards,

TRF Staff

 

[DPatell]

Luke - I'm glad that worked out for you! More than glad to have helped, despite the urges to fly it

 

[PGerringer]

OK, here is my .02.

On motor availability: There are many motor vendors like Aerotech, Animal Motor Works, proXX, etc. Id be willing to bet that there will be plenty of motors available when you are ready.

On LEUP and certing at your field: Here is my suggestion, expect to not have anything H or above at your home. When you get to the site, ask the RSO what the field policy is about LEUPs and such. When it will be required, you get the point. If there is also an onsite vender, which there should be, make sure to ask them their policy on LEUPs. Will they sell a motor without one. I think you will find that buying one motor and launching it immediately may be easier than you think. Just remember to stay within the rules at the field and at home.

Feel free to disagree at will.

Good luck with your level 1 and make sure you provide us with our second drug: pictures.

 

[marshall1031]

I was looking at some hybrid motors and started to wonder...I know I have to get my level 2 certified before I can use hybrids, but because they only contain a non-explosive fuel grain and nitrous, I could use them without an LEUP, correct?

 

[n3tjm]

For Now... Yes.

 

[PGerringer]

To clarify... You still have to follow the level restrictions for the launch. In other words, you must be a level 3 or going for level 3 to launch a hybrid M. But no LEUP is required.

 

[bobkrech]

I know I have to get my level 2 certified before I can use hybrids

It is now permissible to L1 to certify with and fly hybrids. (Amazingly parts of the NAR website have not been changed to reflect this change several years after the change.) The current rule is listed below.

5. Level 1 high power certification
(160.01 to 640.00 Newton-seconds impulse)
The modeler must demonstrate his ability to build and fly a rocket containing at least one H or I impulse class motor. Cluster or staged models used for certification may not contain over 640.00 Newton seconds total impulse. Single use, reloadable, or hybrid technology motors are permitted. The modeler must assemble the reloadable motor, if used, in the presence of a certification team member.

- from https://nar.org/hpcert/NARhpdetails.html

Bob Krech, NAR S&T

 

[shockwaveriderz]

A person who is 18 yeras of age can purchase 1 H motor without an L1 certification, IF, and only IF, that person plans on using that H motor for his 1st L1 cert attempt.....

from NFPA 1127: Code for High Power Rocketry

Chapter 5 High Power Rocket Motor User Certification
5.1 Sales Only to Certified Users. A high power rocket motor
or motor reloading kit shall be sold to, shipped to, stored by,
and used only by certified users.
5.2 User Permit Requirements. Where required by 27 CFR
55, a “User of Low Explosives Permit” shall be obtained prior
to both of the following:
(1) Acquisition by a certified user of a high power solidpropellant
rocket motor(s) or motor reloading kit(s) in a
state other than that in which the user resides
(2) Transportation by a certified user of a high power solidpropellant
rocket motor(s) or motor reloading kit(s) to a
state other than that in which the user resides

Notice it says "where required"? Its your responsibility to determine is this applies to you.


also:

Chapter 6 Prohibited Activities
6.1 Prohibited Acts. The following activities shall be prohibited
by this code:


(9) Selling or transfer of a high power rocket motor or motor
reloading kit to any person who is not a certified user,


"other than the transfer of a single high power rocket
motor or motor reloading kit for the purpose of user
certification"


(10) Possession, storage, or use of a high power rocket motor
or motor reloading kit by any person who is not a certified
user,
"other than the possession, storage, or use of a
single high power rocket motor or motor reloading kit
for the purpose of user certification"


There are a number of vendors who will still sell you(as an adult) AT easy access HPR motors without a leup.

Children uner the age of 18 are not supposed to have anything to do with HPR in any shape or form even with adult supervision.

This may change. The NAR I believe will be looking at a NAR version of the CAR program which allows for minors use of HPR with adult supervision.

Children under the age of 18 cannot legally purchase G motors or any Reload motor. Children under the age of 18 can use G motors and perhaps reloadable motors under the direct supervision of an adult.

This does not mean that you may not still need a LEUP for possession,and storage of these EZ access HPR motors in your state and locality. And it also means you may need a type 4 storage magazine too...


The above is my interpretation.....I may be wrong....

 

[Zippy]

shockwaveriderz,

This may be a stupid question, but who is NFPA?

Zippy

 

[MarkABrown]

NFPA stands for National Fire Protection Agency (or Administration or something like that). They are a standards organization that has no enforcement authority whatsoever. They are a body of "experts" that have drafted regualtions to standardize fire prevention safety. Rocketry organizations recognized that it is better to be proactive rather than someone else regulate us. Most states in the USA have adopted NFPA regulations as law at the local levels. Check with your local Fire Marshal to see if your area has adopted the NFPA regulations as law.

 

[Zippy]

MarkABrown,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I understand the proactive concept, however I gather there is some debate as to weather or not it actually works. Personally I prefer the NRA model of fighting allmost everything. I'll be joining the NAR soon anyway so I guess It doesn't really matter much.

Zippy

 

[firemanup]

NFPA like mark said devolop and provide standards for the fire prevention and for the fire service in general.

In most of their standards they are looking at an ideal world, which usually means to expensive to be feasable.

Their standards are very selectively adopted as law in most states, but it's a small minority of the standards that are adopted as they are too cost prohibitive for the state and local governments.

 

[shockwaveriderz]

As MArk pointed out the NFPA is the National Fire Prevention Association. Way back in 1968, model rocketry for the very 1st time came under the NFPA codes as NFPA 41-L. This was the forerunner of NFPA 1122-Code for Model Rocketry....

G.Harry Stine( one of the "fathers" of model rocketry) decided it was in the best interests, at that time, to goto the NFPA and get a model rocketry code established and recognized, as he realized that the NFPA codes are usually adopted in whole or part by the majority of the states.

He did not want to go to 50 different state legislatures and end up with 50 different state model rocket codes. Most if not all states follow NFPA 1122, although their are some states that use only parts and some states even have additional restrictions on model rockets...for example NJ,RI and CA.....

With the advent of HPR, the NAR/TRA decided that it was best to follow the model rocketry NFPA route, and NFPA 1127-Code for High Power Rocketry was born.

the applicable NFPA codes 1122/1125/1127 can be adopted by a state if they adopt NFPA 1, the Uniform Fire Code in whole, as NFPA 1 references NFPA1122/1125/1127 ( NFPA 1125 is the Code for the manufacture of model and high power rocket motors).. Or they can be adopted if a state has adopted the IFC, the International Fire Code, which also references the 3 NFPA codes...

I might add that a mjority of states have adopted either NFPA 1 or the IFC so the NFPA codes are laws in most states.

The NFPA has as MArk pointed out, NO Enforcement provisions or authority, ie No NFPA officiers are going to come and take you away if you violate the NFPA codes.....(although if you are a NAR/TRA members you are obligated to follow their Safety codes which are derived in part from the NFPA codes).The State Fire Marshall has the responsibility for enforcement in their individual states per the NFPA codes....and MOST SFM do not even know that their states have even adopted the NFPA rocketry codes anyway!.....

let me give you an example.....

I live in the state of Kentucky where I was under the mistaken impression that none of the NFPA codes 1122/1125/1127 had been adopted. SO I emailed my SFM and asked him if these NFPA codes had been adopted or if the IFC had been adopted. He emailed me back and said NO to all my questions: ie, the NFPA codes and the IFC had not been adopted in the State of Kentucky and as far as he was concerned, never would be........as long as he was SFM. We are not real big on regulation here in KY...

Well it turns out that in 10/2002 that the state of Kentucky did adopt NFPA 1 in full and therefore adopted NFPA 1122/1125/1127 codes by included reference......and this code was adopted while the SFM of KY that I asked was and still is the SFM..... so he was not even aware what the State had obligated itself too...

But the fact that he doesn't know which if any NFPA codes are state law, does not relieve me of my duty to know my states laws.
In other words, ignorance of the law is no defense.

This is why I have taken it upon myself to throughly examine what is state law in kentucky regarding rocketry. I beleive that if I am local and state compliant, the feds will more than likely leave me alone.

The Feds(ATF) say before you come to us and become federal compliant, you must first be local and state compliant...... It's everybodies personal responsibility to know their own state and local laws regarding rocketry before even worrying about the feds..... Unless you are doing something so outrageous and intentionally drawing unneeded attention to yourself in your rocketry activities, then the odds are the local and state and fed authorities will leave you alone.


I personally do not beleive that APCP is an explosive...and until the NAR/TRA lawsuit is lost, I will continue to operate under those personal assumptions. This does not mean that I am correct!.. It means I am willing to take the personal risk to purchase APCP motors without a LEUP. Everybody has to make their own minds on what comfort level they can handle.

I also personally beleive that I can legally purchase APCP motors > 62.5g in weight......and until NPRM 968 becomes law, I will continue to think and behave accordingly.

 

[Zippy]

Makes sense to me.

 

[Hospital_Rocket]

National Fire Protection Association.

They write saftey regulations of various types. Among them are the materials that form the basis of what can generally be agreed is safe use of rockets, engines and the like. They also write a major document called the NEC or National Electrical Code, which defines the way most anything in machinery and construction is wired.

WWW.NFPA.ORG