HP S/U Motor sellers?

DynaSoar · Jul 20, 2004

There's a few S/U HPR motors on ROL from time to time.
Anyone know who has them in stock and for sale?

lalligood · Jul 20, 2004

Magnum does sell Ellis Mountain SU H, I, & J motors.

All of them are relatively low thrust, long burn motors. I have flown a handful of the 29mm G35s (*4* second burn

) and they rock! Perhaps the only downside about EM motors is that an ignitor is NOT included with the motor.

HTH,

RocketboyG80 · Jul 20, 2004

lalligood is right, Ellis motors are cool if you have a rocket light enough to use them in. However AT SU motors have not been in production since the fire. If AT brings them back it will probably be the last thing back 'cause there isn't a very high demand for them.

lalligood · Jul 20, 2004

I forgot to mention that my favorite use for the EM G35 is to remove the ejection charge & load the motor up in my Art Applewhite 29mm Qubit

Gets up about 500ft (which is actually pretty high for a draggy design) thanks to that loooong burn! Nothing like a small field G motor flight

solrules · Jul 20, 2004

ClusterWiz and I drag raced two AA saucers on G35's at LDRS. They corkscrewed the whole way up! Excellent motors. Hard to light, though.

shockwaveriderz · Jul 20, 2004

www.Merlinmissiles.com has Ellis Mountain SU H and perhaps some I's in stock...

DynaSoar · Jul 20, 2004

Originally posted by shockwaveriderz
www.Merlinmissiles.com has Ellis Mountain SU H and perhaps some I's in stock...

Unfortunately they don't have hazmat shipping approval yet, or so says the web page.

DynaSoar · Jul 20, 2004

Originally posted by lalligood
Magnum does sell Ellis Mountain SU H, I, & J motors.

From the web page:

"*Note: A BATF permit is required to purchase Class B rocket motors."

They mean LEUP, no? I know of no other relevant BATF permit for end users.

Isn't this contrary to the ruling that S/U motors are exempt as "propellant actuated devices"?

rstaff3 · Jul 20, 2004

Yes, he means a LEUP (or LUP). It may be that vendors would rather not push the issue and keep their policy of requiring a LEUP. All they need is one agent to shut them down and they might never recover, even if eventually proven right. After the HSA/SEA went into effect many vendors required LEUPS for 38mm reloads, until concensus said that the previous 'exemption' was still valid.

DynaSoar · Jul 20, 2004

Originally posted by rstaff3
Yes, he means a LEUP (or LUP). It may be that vendors would rather not push the issue and keep their policy of requiring a LEUP. All they need is one agent to shut them down and they might never recover, even if eventually proven right. After the HSA/SEA went into effect many vendors required LEUPS for 38mm reloads, until concensus said that the previous 'exemption' was still valid.

So now I'm expected to have both at least L1 cert AND an LEUP in order to order an H motor?

This is just so not right. After getting a ruling that S/U motors are exempt, our rules are getting tougher?

They need far more than one agent to shut them down. And all they need is the names of any agent(s) trying to do so forwarded to NAR or TRA presidents and from them to Judge Walton (per his instructions) in order to have those agents' wings clipped.

Justin Horne · Jul 20, 2004

No, you don't have to have a LEP, from what i've seen. Most vendors require one, but I'm pretty sure that's just the vendor. Magnum sells class C reloads (up to i) without a LEP.

Stymye · Jul 20, 2004

I asked a vendor at a launch reciently for a G-33
he asked me if I had a leup !

rstaff3 · Jul 20, 2004

Originally posted by DynaSoar
So now I'm expected to have both at least L1 cert AND an LEUP in order to order an H motor?

This is just so not right. After getting a ruling that S/U motors are exempt, our rules are getting tougher?

I'm sorry for any confusion. I was referring to the statement about him requiring a LEUP/LEP for a single use (SU) motor. Before the court ruling, you did need a permit for any SU over 62.5gms. After the ruling, you supposedly don't, but some vendors are sticking with the pre-ruling state, which is more conservative on their part. I think Magnum will ship 38mm H and I reloads without a LEUP. 38mm Js should be in the same category, but I seem to remember Magnum's site saying up to I's - I may be wrong and didn't bother checking. Maybe others can confirm this, or you can call Ross.

Once again, I was just speculating about why a vendor may choose to require a LEUP for a HPR SU motor, when from my understanding they don't have to.

Justin Horne · Jul 20, 2004

Originally posted by stymye
I asked a vendor at a launch reciently for a G-33
he asked me if I had a leup !

Wow, that's getting extreme... Probably was just misinformed. However, are there any regs regarding transporting a motor? Maybe he thought you were not going to fly it right then? Beats me though...

Justin.

Stymye · Jul 20, 2004

he stated that he couldn't sell it to me without a leup,
because the grain weight was over 62.5 grms

shockwaveriderz · Jul 20, 2004

hmmmm last time I looked there was no 62.5 g limit yet.......
must be an extreme case of CYA........

I would have said: and what 62.5 g limit is this? NPRM 968 isn't in effect yet.....we (the NAR/TRA) just won a court ruling that siad all fully assembledrocket motors are PADS and therefore are exempt from LEUP requiremnets......

I know a G33 is a reload and over 62.5 but a large number of vendors are saying reloads such as Easy Access are still available sans LEUP..... from a large number of vendors....

I guess if I ran into a vendor like that I would first try to change his mind or determine on what basis he is saying that and then go find a vendor that would sell it to me....

I want to be clear that I support that vendor's right to interpret the laws and proceed as he sees comfortable with...

lalligood · Jul 21, 2004

Originally posted by DynaSoar
From the web page:

"*Note: A BATF permit is required to purchase Class B rocket motors."

They mean LEUP, no? I know of no other relevant BATF permit for end users.

Isn't this contrary to the ruling that S/U motors are exempt as "propellant actuated devices"?

While Ross does an admirable job to keep information about his latest received shipments, there is some content on his site that does need some refreshing (editting).

I ordered 2 EM G35s from Magnum just last week. Price on the webpage was correct but I did not need a LEUP nor did I have to pay a HAZMAT fee to ship those motors. I know this has been said before but it's worth repeating: SU motors are EXEMPT from LEUP requirements. HAZMAT fee might be needed for larger SU motors though...

DynaSoar · Jul 22, 2004

Originally posted by DynaSoar
From the web page:

"*Note: A BATF permit is required to purchase Class B rocket motors."

They mean LEUP, no? I know of no other relevant BATF permit for end users.

Isn't this contrary to the ruling that S/U motors are exempt as "propellant actuated devices"?

I wrote and asked them what the deal was.

The answer was that they're sticking to the (illegal, over-ruled) regulation until things "settle down".

People can run their businesses as they see fit, but for my money, if they do what ATFE says even when the law says ATFE is wrong, it makes it all the easier for ATFE to get things changed their way.

rstaff3 · Jul 22, 2004

lalligood, the Ellis G35s are under 62.5gms of propellant so they shouldn't need a LEUP anyways (62gm per the Ellis site). Update - well TMT says 82 gm...ignore this comment!

DynaSoar, I guess asking Ross was the best way of finding out what he's thinking

Anthony Cesaroni · Jul 22, 2004

Originally posted by DynaSoar
From the web page:

"*Note: A BATF permit is required to purchase Class B rocket motors."

They mean LEUP, no? I know of no other relevant BATF permit for end users.

Isn't this contrary to the ruling that S/U motors are exempt as "propellant actuated devices"?

There is no such thing as B or C class motors. Those explosives designations went the way of the dinosaurs long ago when DOT harmonized with the U.N. number system. The latter has no bearing on impulse or weight either. The BATFE for the most part, decides which numbers get regulated. The explosives shipping hazard classification and sub-class (1.3, 1.4) and compatibility class (C, G, S, etc.) are under the DOT's jurisdiction.

Anthony J. Cesaroni
President/CEO
Cesaroni Technology/Cesaroni Aerospace
https://www.cesaronitech.com/
(905) 887-2370 x222 Toronto
(410) 571-8292 Annapolis

HP S/U Motor sellers?

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