How Much $$ Did BATFE Spend On The Suit?

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

deandome

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
920
Reaction score
80
Does anyone know? Educated estimate?

Cuz it seems to me that now is the time...BEFORE they try to regroup...to help spread the word that they wasted $MILLIONS$ of our tax dollars.

That kinda public embarrassment might make them think twice before they try to spend $millions$ more in a follow-up suit.

I have some bloggers I can contact @ Huffington Post that might enjoy a chance to take them down a peg....
 
who cares. the amount of money they spent on the lawsuit is pennies in the bucket compared to other things. several million dollars comes out to about a few pennies each american is paying per year in taxes. nothing . . .
 
Last edited:
I doubt it's millions, but they certainly spent hundreds of thousands and probably will be responsible for re-paying our legal fees.

But, I don't think it's a good idea to raise a hubbub about it. I wouldn't want to inspire someone else in the government to take up their cause.

-- Roger
 
Yeah...and the $195M in AIG bonuses are a tiny fraction of the $60 billion+ bailout money they got/are getting. And $100 million of earmarks is nothing in the context of a $1 trillion spending bill. But people are freaking out about both, and thus you'll see a lot of consideration/examination on bonuses/earmarks when similar situations arise (i.e., Obama saying "...these earmarks are from 2008...next year, there won't be so many")/

My point is....if we can generate any degree of public outcry about the wasteful, bullying tactics used...when it seemed clear they had no case....that may well quash any thoughts they're having about regrouping & launching a new offensive.



who cares. the amount of money they spent on the lawsuit is pennies in the bucket compared to other things. several million dollars comes out to about a few pennies each american is paying per year in taxes. nothing . . .
 
Last edited:
I'd be more interested in how much they spent burning down a van on a military base, and the subsequent cover up....

The sheer stupidity and ineptitude shown in that incident would be much more humiliating.

-Kevin
 
Does there exist a list of FACTS and documentation; dates, names, specific actions, etc, that would serve as indisputable back-up for our side of the argument? A website? A thread (doesn't have to be on TRF)?

It might be possible to get the attention of a news organization briefly with a loose/sloppy presentation of our situation (and history), but if you have some facts they can use (a loooong list), do their research for them and basically pre-write their story halfway, I think you will get a lot more serious attention from the news folks. They might even take the full story all the way onto the airwaves....a bunch of fumbling Keystone-esque ATF agents "burning down the house" would make for some amusing news.
 
Last edited:
Does there exist a list of FACTS and documentation; dates, names, specific actions, etc, that would serve as indisputable back-up for our side of the argument? A website? A thread (doesn't have to be on TRF)?

It might be possible to get the attention of a news organization briefly with a loose/sloppy presentation of our situation (and history), but if you have some facts they can use (a loooong list), do their research for them and basically pre-write their story halfway, I think you will get a lot more serious attention from the news folks. They might even take the full story all the way onto the airwaves....a bunch of fumbling Keystone-esque ATF agents "burning down the house" would make for some amusing news.
This makes sence :)
Cheers
fred
 
I think everyone forgets they were simply looking out for the bests interests of the country. At least thats what I choose to believe. There were no axes to grind or vendettas to pursue.

Obviously nobody high up in the administration was into rocketry. If they didn't ask the question, they'd never get answers.

We won, lets enjoy it!
 
"Best interests"? Don't kid yourself!

This was a power grab, and a personal vendetta carried out through the abuse of power within the BATF.

If it was looking out for the best interests of the country, they would've folded the case a long time ago, rather than fabricating flimsy "evidence" to support a technically ignorant position. They got exposed for what they were, incompetent.
 
Does there exist a list of FACTS and documentation; dates, names, specific actions, etc, that would serve as indisputable back-up for our side of the argument? A website? A thread (doesn't have to be on TRF)?

It might be possible to get the attention of a news organization briefly with a loose/sloppy presentation of our situation (and history), but if you have some facts they can use (a loooong list), do their research for them and basically pre-write their story halfway, I think you will get a lot more serious attention from the news folks. They might even take the full story all the way onto the airwaves....a bunch of fumbling Keystone-esque ATF agents "burning down the house" would make for some amusing news.

I think that is all taken into account by the GAO (General Accounting Office) and i believe if my memory serves they did investigate the "expences" acrued from the fire.

Perhaps this is all available through the Freedon of Information Act if somebody wants to go through the trouble of asking.

I think the appropriate people to ask would be the staff of The Daily Show on Comedy Central.

They love this sort of stuff.:D
 
IIRC someone on 'our team' tried to get details about the incident and found that the info was 'classified'. Anyone else remember this or am I tripping?
 
Early 2003, I was called to do a brief radio on-air phone interview with Hannity about the restrictive govt rules that were stifling rocketry. He was very sympathetic to our position, I think he did model rockets as a kid. I agree it would be good to bring the details of our 'David over Goliath' victory to the attention of some of these news hosts, they might miss it amongst all the other stuff, and may want to share it with their listeners.


Powder burner wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does there exist a list of FACTS and documentation; dates, names, specific actions, etc, that would serve as indisputable back-up for our side of the argument? A website? A thread (doesn't have to be on TRF)?

It might be possible to get the attention of a news organization briefly with a loose/sloppy presentation of our situation (and history), but if you have some facts they can use (a loooong list), do their research for them and basically pre-write their story halfway, I think you will get a lot more serious attention from the news folks. They might even take the full story all the way onto the airwaves....a bunch of fumbling Keystone-esque ATF agents "burning down the house" would make for some amusing news.
 
IIRC someone on 'our team' tried to get details about the incident and found that the info was 'classified'. Anyone else remember this or am I tripping?

I believe you are correct.

Of course, if the ATF tries to get Congress to pass legislation, then getting Congress to pursue that information would only be appropriate.

-Kevin
 
I'd be more interested in how much they spent burning down a van on a military base, and the subsequent cover up....

The sheer stupidity and ineptitude shown in that incident would be much more humiliating.

-Kevin

Eh? Did I miss something? Splain? (a link will suffice.)


Of course if you have to kill me for telling me... well, nevermind. ;)
 
Last edited:
Once upon a time, a certain government agency was attempting to paint rocketry as bad (VERY bad) by claiming that you could turn model rockets into anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons.

(Don't hurt yourself laughing, please)

In the course of demonstrating how this could be done, these government folks purchased some big motors and some big rockets and supposedly went to a remote airfield to conduct an experiment. Apparently they were going to fly some sort of target over the airfield and try to hit the target with a rocket. Hopefully, this would have been some sort of TOWED target and not an actual manned aircraft, but then again that would also be assuming some higher level of intelligence for these guys. Anyway, to add to the "reality" of the whole thing, the story goes that the experimenters used a van with an open roof window, to stand in the opening for launch, to look like a "terrorist" (like you see in the movies).

In this scenario, if you launch a rocket upwards through the window at a target in the sky, the exhaust goes downwards. Into the van.

Story has it that the experimenters also had the foresight to store their other test materials inside the same van. These items included more motors.

Allegedly, the launch exhaust ignited the van interior (and/or the remaining motors) and the whole thing burned up.

I have to say this: This story has all the signs of someone's made-up tall tale. It is hard for me to imagine someone actually doing something this stupid (then again, we're talking about ..... ). I do not know of any official documentation of this event. But if it DID take place, you could imagine how any remaining evidence would have been deeply buried.

Anyway, you asked, and that's the story.
 
Does anyone know? Educated estimate?

Cuz it seems to me that now is the time...BEFORE they try to regroup...to help spread the word that they wasted $MILLIONS$ of our tax dollars.

That kinda public embarrassment might make them think twice before they try to spend $millions$ more in a follow-up suit.

I have some bloggers I can contact @ Huffington Post that might enjoy a chance to take them down a peg....




Go right ahead; KEEP on Poking the BEAR! You folks laugh all you want for now...for awhile anyway. I'm sure this isn't over, and what we end up with may be far worse then it how it was.

Power grab my hind quarters; BATF was just trying to do their job keeping us safe.

I don't believe they burned down a van either. If they really tried something like that, I'm sure they would have had more sense then to leave there "stock of motors" exposed in the vehicle. Sounds like someones made up pipe dream.
I'd Strongly suggest you guys just enjoy the Victory while we have it.
 
Power grab my hind quarters; BATF was just trying to do their job keeping us safe.

Based on my personal experience with the agency, I respectfully disagree.

I don't believe they burned down a van either.

As amusing as such a story might be, again based on my personal experience, I don't believe such an incident happened either.

I'm sure this isn't over, and what we end up with may be far worse then it how it was.

People need to keep in mind that this case is one centered in administrative law, i.e. the methods by which the implementation of statutes passed by Congress get done out here in the real world.

There's a large body of case law behind this process; we're not the only group that's had issues with government entities and regulation.

The results of this case paint a very tight picture, and IMHO, almost no wiggle room.

Waiting out the 60 days is a smart thing to do. Any legal challenge to the order will, I assure you, undergo a very close review by counsel, and I'm personally confident based on experience with them that they'll figure out what, if anything needs to be done.

Finally, there's absolutely nothing to be gained by "rubbing their nose in it".

If you really want to celebrate what we have accomplished, just fly rockets.
 
I don't think it was a power grab by the BATFE but more of a misguided view of how to keep Americans safe. When you put someone in charge of protecting people from terrorists and then constantly bombard them with stories and examples of terrorists being among us, pretty soon everyone starts to look like a terrorist. When you give someone the power to decide how much they are paid, of course they will take as much as they can get away with. Same goes for the BATFE. Image how easy their job would be if you couldn't even buy matches. Sure, the American population would be screwed but in their eyes they will have accomplished their mission.

But that is where we come in... it is every American's responsibility to keep the government in check. If we don't then look at history to find out what we will end up with.

If you view this as being important then start writing all your congressmen and elected officials. Tell them about how happy you are with the recent ruling against the BATFE and then go on to tell them about our hobby and all the good things it does for educating children. Get them informed on the topic. Then if it ever does end up on the agenda they will already have a good idea of what is going on based on your correspondence. And who knows... maybe enough noise will be created by congressmen asking questions of BATFE officials that the BATFE will let this one pass without fighting it.
 
Hi All, I have been away from rockets for about 2 years. My old username was lamart72 but I was unable to reactivate that name recently because of TRF being down. Anyway, what was/is the final outcome of the lawsuit?? What are we able to do and not do?
Thanks,
Lamar
 
There were claims of verification by eyewitnesses:

There are also people who claim they have seen Nessie, and Bigfoot, and Elvis, and....

Thel burned-up van story is one that would be pretty good if it were true. But it also has just enough of a "smell" to it that I think it would be more likely to be some frustrated rocket hobbyist's tall tale.

Then again, if we are wondering how smart these government agents might be, remember they were the same group that was trying to tell the country that we (model rocketry "terrorists") could shoot down airliners and kill tanks with our balsawood-cardboard toys. So I guess ya just never know.
 
Well... considering the quality of the work they did on the burn-rate testing of APCP, I'd guess it couldn't have been much more than twenty bucks. :D
 
Then again, if we are wondering how smart these government agents might be, remember they were the same group that was trying to tell the country that we (model rocketry "terrorists") could shoot down airliners and kill tanks with our balsawood-cardboard toys. So I guess ya just never know.

You forgot fiberglass, carbon fiber, and other custom made polymer materials... yes, we are a very nasty enemy with many tricks up our sleeves!
 
I don't think it was a power grab by the BATFE but more of a misguided view of how to keep Americans safe.


It WAS a power grab and another way to keep Americans under the bureaucratic thumb of a governmental agency using falsified and made-up information combined with fear-mongering.. And the reason....money! Force Americans who want to have fun PAY for it in the form of unnecessary LEUPs and use misinformed and ignorant agents to enforce it using as few resources as possible.
 
Last edited:
Folks i just pulled a post from this thread. Please try and keep the politics to a minimum. The pulled post will be looked at by the mods and we'll see what happens :)
Cheers
Fred
 
Back
Top