House of the Dragon discussion thread (warning: spoilers)

Marc_G

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
8,271
Reaction score
2,353
Location
Indianapolis Metro Area
Hi folks,

Surprisingly I didn't see a thread here on HBOMax's House of the Dragon.

I admit to watching and enjoying the show, as I did Game of Thrones. However, I'm not a fanboy or massive GoT nerd. I haven't read the GRR Martin books.

Mostly, I content myself by watching the shows and occasionally reading online summaries that dig into points that I may have missed, being somewhat of a poser to the GoT universe.

But the latest episode, #7 "Driftmark," left me with a burning question that none of the reviews online have really touched on.

A the end of the episode, we see that Ser Laenor was not actually killed by his lover Qarl, but was actually part of a plot to get him out of the picture, free to cross the Narrow Sea to the free cities, as engineered by Daemon and Rhaenyra. OK, great. I kinda saw it coming through the episode. I don't think Rhaenyra as portrayed would be so cold as to have him actually killed (though, in the book he does die, as I have understood).

OK, fine. But, WHAT ABOUT HIS DRAGON, SEASMOKE? It's not very practical to try to live a life of obscurity and anonymity in a new land when you've got a great big fire breathing dragon following you around, on of only a handful known to still exist, and easily identifiable as Laenor's dragon. There is no precedent for abandoning a dragon in the GoT universe, I think. I don't think it works that way.

Sure, the dragons don't constantly follow their rider everywhere all the time. But, it's gonna turn up, sooner or later. And, it's impossible that anyone else would be able to form a bond with SeaSmoke while Laenor still lives. So it will be pretty obvious in Westeros that Laenor lives, pretty soon. Seems like a big plot hole.

None of the writeups I've read have really addressed this question. Anybody here have speculation on this? Again, divergence between book and show may reduce the utility of the books for filling this gap, but I'm interested in other people's thoughts!
 

SecondRow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Messages
1,227
Reaction score
1,130
So, I haven’t gotten around to fully watching the show yet. I’ve only seen the first episode so far. We’ll get around to it sooner or later - just haven’t found the time where the wife and I can watch it. But I have read the books, including the source material Fire & Blood, and I want to touch on these two comments you made:

though, in the book he does die, as I have understood).

And, it's impossible that anyone else would be able to form a bond with SeaSmoke while Laenor still lives.
Both of these statements (i.e., that Laenor was killed by Qarl, and that dragons bond with their riders for life) come from Fire & Blood. The problem is that Fire & Blood was not written by an omniscient narrator. It was written by Archmaester Gyldayn, an in-universe historian who lived hundreds of years after the Dance of the Dragons. He relies on contemporary accounts that sometimes disagree with one another. He’s never even seen a live dragon. Also, he’s a member of the Citadel, which has its own objectives. In short, he’s unreliable, like much of the historical narratives of the universe (like the stories about Lyanna and Rhaegar, and what happened at the Tower of Joy).

Much of what he wrote is likely true, especially the bigger events. But some of it may be wrong. maybe Laenor died, maybe he didn’t. Maybe dragons bond for life, maybe they lose interest in a long distance relationship.

Understand, I’m not saying those two statements are definitely lies. I have no idea. I’m just saying they’re not necessarily true.

But if you want to know what happens to Seasmoke in the book:

The dragon hangs out in the volcano on Dragonstone for almost a decade until it binds with a new rider. They fight in the Dance until they meet their end fighting a larger dragon.
 
Last edited:

Marc_G

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
8,271
Reaction score
2,353
Location
Indianapolis Metro Area
Thanks @SecondRow , that is good context from the book. It will be interesting to see what if anything comes of this loose thread in the show. It just seems so glaring that I was surprised at the end of the episode with not even a foreshadowing of how it will be handled.
 

samb

Lifetime Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
4,436
Reaction score
884
Location
Plano, TX
Haven’t read Fire and Blood but I am enjoying the show. I think they will keep Seasmoke in Westeros, riderless, someway somehow, until Laenor dies off screen. The Dance has already begun when he gets a new rider and comes screaming into the fight in some dramatic fashion. Everybody dies. That’s my story.
 

samb

Lifetime Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
4,436
Reaction score
884
Location
Plano, TX
More random thoughts:
Up until the end of episode 6 I had much more sympathy for Alicent than Rheanyra.
Graham McTavish is being criminally underutilized. Up The Westerlings!
Either GRRM releases The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring together or none at all.
 

SecondRow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Messages
1,227
Reaction score
1,130
Either GRRM releases The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring together or none at all.
I have little expectation he will finish the original series. His entire catalog is filled with series that never finished, stories that he explored in more detail and then stopped. A RRetrospective is filled with stories where he says “I planned on making this series longer, but then I kind of stopped.” The only difference between then and now is that now he’s old and rich.

He’s never going to finish it, IMO. He got stuck in a corner with the plot that was too difficult to get out of, and I don’t think he cares much about the story anymore. It’s easier to write about other content in the same universe and get paid then undo his Mereenese Knot. 🤷‍♂️
 

samb

Lifetime Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
4,436
Reaction score
884
Location
Plano, TX
I don't begrudge him his big pay day. I just want to read the rest of the story.
 

SecondRow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Messages
1,227
Reaction score
1,130
Neither do I. IMO, he doesn’t have to finish it if he doesn’t want to. He doesn’t owe the reader anything.

BUT!!

He’s kind of a dick for not trying to finish it.
 

Funkworks

Low Earth Orbit, obstructing Earth's view of Venus
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Messages
4,167
Reaction score
4,483
I like dragon pictures. Hopefully this show will produce many dragon pictures.

Like this:

house-of-the-dragon-release-date-3.jpg

And this:

dragons-game-of-thrones-3-1620249397988.jpg
 
Last edited:

samb

Lifetime Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
4,436
Reaction score
884
Location
Plano, TX
I like dragon pictures. Hopefully this show will produce many dragon pictures.
...
Me too. I haven't read the book but my understanding is season 2 will start the "dragon-palooza". But I also understand that a good dragon shot stretches technology and budget. "No bucks, no Buck... dragons". :)
 

Marc_G

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
8,271
Reaction score
2,353
Location
Indianapolis Metro Area
OK, here's another question:

Given the events at the end of the season finale, and this may be a quibble, but how did Rhaenyra get the news so quickly? The events happened out over ocean as far as I can tell. Presumably only the one survivor knows what happened from the encounter, and he's certainly not going to broadcast the news. It was clear events didn't unfold as he wanted them to.

I would have expected when the person went missing, after some days a search party would have been raised... but instead it seems like a more or less immediate word got back to Dragonstone.
 

samb

Lifetime Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
4,436
Reaction score
884
Location
Plano, TX
Yeah, that was abrupt. My guess is: Some weeks passed. The aerial chase brought them back close enough to Storm's End for someone(s) to witness the fall. Friends and relations of Rhaenys got the word out.
 

SecondRow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Messages
1,227
Reaction score
1,130
OK, here's another question:

Given the events at the end of the season finale, and this may be a quibble, but how did Rhaenyra get the news so quickly? The events happened out over ocean as far as I can tell. Presumably only the one survivor knows what happened from the encounter, and he's certainly not going to broadcast the news. It was clear events didn't unfold as he wanted them to.

I would have expected when the person went missing, after some days a search party would have been raised... but instead it seems like a more or less immediate word got back to Dragonstone.
I still haven’t watched it yet, but in the book the fight takes place over Shipbreaker Bay, which is the body of water between Storm’s End and the island of Tarth. Not way out in the ocean. The combatants could be heard from the mainland. Everyone nearby knew a fight took place, even if they couldn’t see it directly. And a body washed ashore three days later. Well, part of a body.
 

Zbench

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 30, 2018
Messages
298
Reaction score
301
Location
Broadview Heights, OH
Ok, one more:

Early in the episode is a scene in a dragonpit where Daemon is singing a song to (I presume) Caraxes. What was the meaning of that?
My interpretation is that is one of the 3 wild
Dragons that roost there and he is trying to bring it into the fold. Remember when he was giving the accounting. 14-4 in their favor. But now only 13 I guess.
 

Marc_G

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
8,271
Reaction score
2,353
Location
Indianapolis Metro Area
My interpretation is that is one of the 3 wild
Dragons that roost there and he is trying to bring it into the fold. Remember when he was giving the accounting. 14-4 in their favor. But now only 13 I guess.
Good thought. I don't know the dragons by sight so wasn't certain it was his own dragon. Weird scene.

Sort of reminds me of how he offed his first wife by spooking the horse, getting it to rear up and crush his wife.

It's like Daemon is an animal whisperer in or some such. Just makes small noises or gestures to connect with the animals.
 

samb

Lifetime Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
4,436
Reaction score
884
Location
Plano, TX
Google says that dragon is called Vermithor, currently rider-less. They are definitely giving Daemon special dragon communication powers.
 

Marc_G

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
8,271
Reaction score
2,353
Location
Indianapolis Metro Area
OK, more dragon-centric questions:

1. Who names the dragons? Is the name bestowed by the first rider of the dragon, or is there some House Targaryen / Velaryon authority that names them? Or does the dragon know its own name and somehow communicates it? Some of the names sound really dragonish (Belarion, Caraxes!) and some sound like they should be ponies or something like that (Sunfyre, Silverwing, SeaSmoke).

2. This has been bugging me for a while: One of the big character issues leading up to the Dance is that Aemond wanted a dragon, but didn't have one. Numerous sources mention he didn't properly bond with an egg (was there an egg assigned to him, if so what happened to it?), so no dragon for young Aemond. But, as he got older, if having a dragon was such a burning desire for him, why didn't he take his chances with any of the "riderless" dragons such as Vermithor, at some earlier point before he summoned up his courage for the mighty Vhagar? We learned in episode 10 that several unclaimed dragons hang around places where people are. I would have thought Aemond would have given one of them a go.
 
Last edited:

Zbench

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 30, 2018
Messages
298
Reaction score
301
Location
Broadview Heights, OH
Confused by #2. Aemond, the one eyed prince, in fact did claim a dragon much to the consternation of his cousin. Aegon, his elder brother, also now King, couldn’t care less about dragons as his main interest was catting around with the various whores of the realm and getting drunk.

You use both in the same paragraph. Not sure which one you are referred to.
 

Marc_G

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
8,271
Reaction score
2,353
Location
Indianapolis Metro Area
Confused by #2. Aemond, the one eyed prince, in fact did claim a dragon much to the consternation of his cousin. Aegon, his elder brother, also now King, couldn’t care less about dragons as his main interest was catting around with the various whores of the realm and getting drunk.

You use both in the same paragraph. Not sure which one you are referred to.
Good catch. I will fix the post. I meant Aemond both times.
 
Top