High Power Sugar Rocket

[Handeman]

I agree. The cost of HPR rocket motors is only a small part of high power rocketry.

Starting off with homemade motors is the wrong way to go.

(I must confess that making rocket motors was what had first attracted me to high power rocketry before I learned that the hobby was already well established and advanced, and that there are many satisfying ways of participating without building dangerous motors.)

Get your L1 to L3 high power rocketry certifications first before deciding whether you really want to go through all of the costly and dangerous steps of making your own rocket motors. You’ll probably discover that you won’t save any money.

I did get my L3 before I started doing research motors, but I disagree with your assumption that making motors is any more dangerous than buying and storing commercial motors for later use, or actually flying rockets.
Although making APCP research motors have different dangers and safety concerns, I believe those issues can be mitigated and controlled just as well as flying HPR rockets are with the safety codes.
I think the biggest issue people that haven't been mentored in making rocket motors have is that there is no organization that sets safety standards for the making of rocket propellant like NAR and TRA do for flying rockets. They have no clue what the safety concerns are or what rules or processes should be followed. That is why having a good mentor is so important. Your mentor is where you are going to get most of your specific safety information from. That and the MSDS for the materials used.
Then, after you have made propellant, you need to know how it works in the motor design you have, which is a whole different problem with completely different safety issues. That is where the rubber meets the road and the research rules from TRA come into effect if you are flight testing a motor or propellant design. Safety on a test stand isn't part of TRA research flight rules, so that's another place a mentor is invaluable.

 

[rharshberger]

I did get my L3 before I started doing research motors, but I disagree with your assumption that making motors is any more dangerous than buying and storing commercial motors for later use, or actually flying rockets.
Although making APCP research motors have different dangers and safety concerns, I believe those issues can be mitigated and controlled just as well as flying HPR rockets are with the safety codes.
I think the biggest issue people that haven't been mentored in making rocket motors have is that there is no organization that sets safety standards for the making of rocket propellant like NAR and TRA do for flying rockets. They have no clue what the safety concerns are or what rules or processes should be followed. That is why having a good mentor is so important. Your mentor is where you are going to get most of your specific safety information from. That and the MSDS for the materials used.
Then, after you have made propellant, you need to know how it works in the motor design you have, which is a whole different problem with completely different safety issues. That is where the rubber meets the road and the research rules from TRA come into effect if you are flight testing a motor or propellant design. Safety on a test stand isn't part of TRA research flight rules, so that's another place a mentor is invaluable.

To add to your statement, not only are the MSDS's not well written for the chems used but most people don't know how to read the NIOSH and ACGIH information on those chems (when listed) so they know the proper PPE (personal protective equipment) like when to wear butyl gloves, vinyl or nitril or latex to protect against the chemical being handled.

 

[AllDigital]

Hi @Scout306

I applaud your passion and ambition. Flying to 10K feet on your own homemade motor is a lofty goal -- likely less than 1% in this forum of rocket experts have done that. While there are a bunch of YouTube channels and other sources on the internet that make it look easy, actually making a motor of that size that won't cato is a huge accomplishment.

I have launched over 50 rockets on sugar motors to >10K feet in the last 3-4 years out at FAR in California. I've also seen dozens of people show up to FAR with experimental motors that did not have a mentor and 99% of those end badly. To build a proper motor you need to know more than just how to cook sugar with the right (and high quality ingredients). You need to understand your Kn, your mass flow, grain design to achieve the desired thrust curve, grain geometry, how to taper or space your grains appropriately, liner and case design, forward closures, nozzle design, o-ring design, and how to cast grains under pressure. Small techniques like mandrel mold release are also important, so you don't create micro cracks in the grains... and the list goes on. A lot of the hard stuff can be de-risked by purchasing commercial cases, liners, nozzles, etc., but all of this stuff is expensive. To get to 10K with a 3" rocket you will need at least a five grain 75mm motor.

There are only a handful of people in the US that are consistently making that size of sugar motor today. If you want to take a field trip out to FAR in California (North of Mojave) on a launch day, I'd be happy to provide some mentoring. My son started on sugar motors when he was 12 and is now studying aerospace engineering in college. We have a lot of younger kids that come out to take classes in either AP or Sugar motors.

All of the detailed discussions regarding experimental motors are in the restricted section of this forum, so you won't get the real detailed advice you need here. It is restricted for good reason, requiring L2 certification and a solid general knowledge of rocketry, but your age will lock you out of certifying until you are 18.

-Mike

 

[Dan Griffing]

I am a high school student part of a group that is in the planning stages of building a high power sugar rocket. We are tyring to reach an important milestone, the 10,000 foot mark! Any and all advice would be much appreciated.

I started in rocketry in high school in 1968 with the Army’s “A Guide to Amateur Rocketry” handbook that had been published in 1963. That booklet instructed the building of a steel rocket fueled by powdered zinc and sulfur.

I was able to enlist the help of my physics teacher as a sponsor to get me out of study hall and to learn welding and metal lathing in the metal shop.

I had one successful launch of a “lawn dart” rocket days before graduating, and fortunately everything ended up safely and successfully.

But in retrospect, none of us knew what we were doing, or the dangerous behavior that we were engaging in, especially the physics teacher, or the U.S. Army for publishing the “how to” manual.

Building your own rocket motors is serious business and nothing that should be considered lightly. One of the main reasons why the NAR was founded was to provide a safe alternative to the hundreds of young men who were in injuring themselves with homemade rockets. And the high power rocketry NAR and Tripoli organizations fill that role today for serious rocketeers.

https://aeroconsystems.com/tips/a-guide-to-amateur-rocketry-1.pdf

 

[Scout306]

I started in rocketry in high school in 1968 with the Army’s “A Guide to Amateur Rocketry” handbook that had been published in 1963. That booklet instructed the building of a steel rocket fueled by powdered zinc and sulfur.

I was able to enlist the help of my physics teacher as a sponsor to get me out of study hall and to learn welding and metal lathing in the metal shop.

I had one successful launch of a “lawn dart” rocket days before graduating, and fortunately everything ended up safely and successfully.

But in retrospect, none of us knew what we were doing, or the dangerous behavior that we were engaging in, especially the physics teacher, or the U.S. Army for publishing the “how to” manual.

Building your own rocket motors is serious business and nothing that should be considered lightly. One of the main reasons why the NAR was founded was to provide a safe alternative to the hundreds of young men who were in injuring themselves with homemade rockets. And the high power rocketry NAR and Tripoli organizations fill that role today for serious rocketeers.

https://aeroconsystems.com/tips/a-guide-to-amateur-rocketry-1.pdf

My group and I thank you dearly for your advise. We take safety as THE top priority in any situation that we come across.
I have witnessed first hand the effects that not doing so lead to. A friend by the name of Antonio was involved in a static rocket motor fast accident after the motor wasn’t secured properly and the flew off and hit him square in the leg. Breaking his femur in multiple places and many more internal injuries.
It is obvious that we do not want an accident to happen because they lead to situations like this.
We will read everything thoroughly that is given to us and listen to anything and everything our mentor give or teaches us.
Thank you

 

[Modskies]

ummm, rocket motors do not function by explosion, propellant is not an explosive. go away, you do the hobby damage.

He didn't mention anything about explosions or explosives, in his defense. It's a bit harsh to tell him to go away based on your own lack of reading comprehension. He took the initiative to ask questions on this forum, and seems receptive to advice. That's a start.

 

[tsmith1315]

He didn't mention anything about explosions or explosives, in his defense. It's a bit harsh to tell him to go away based on your own lack of reading comprehension. He took the initiative to ask questions on this forum, and seems receptive to advice. That's a start.

Originally, the post did say that. It was edited:

 

[cls]

He didn't mention anything about explosions or explosives, in his defense. It's a bit harsh to tell him to go away based on your own lack of reading comprehension. He took the initiative to ask questions on this forum, and seems receptive to advice. That's a start.

Zombie thread?! And the OP hasn't pursued this

Scout306​

Member · From Las Vegas Joined Dec 2, 2022 Last seen Dec 23, 2022​

As noted above, the post was edited to remove the inappropriate language.

Now that you have read the rest of the replies, you understand as well as the OP about the practicalities and chances of success of such a project.

 

[Modskies]

Zombie thread?! And the OP hasn't pursued this

Scout306​

Member · From Las Vegas Joined Dec 2, 2022 Last seen Dec 23, 2022​

As noted above, the post was edited to remove the inappropriate language.

Now that you have read the rest of the replies, you understand as well as the OP about the practicalities and chances of success of such a project.

My sincerest apologies, you are absolutely correct in everything about your post.

Originally, the post did say that. It was edited:

View attachment 573812

I stand corrected, i owe an apology to cls; he was 100% right about his original response.

 

[cls]

I stand corrected, i owe an apology to cls; he was 100% right about his original response.

Thanks, not necessary. You're a big man! Welcome to TRF!

I think you'll see a similar range of comments to other "hey imma newb I wanna make motorzz!" posts. The answers are usually, yeah you can... But, you aren't 18, you aren't TRA level 2, you haven't passed high school chemistry and math through calculus, you don't have a mentor, you don't know what things you don't know (classic Dunning Krueger right there)... Etc. Enjoy reading those posts...

 

[High Desert Rocketry]

I fell in love with rocketry in 1959 when they rolled out the X-15, age 7 and we had the school library World Book Encyclopedia as our internet. We survived those times making our own motors in spite of having no mentors, NAR, or Tripoli. I wish we had because at one point in time my friends and I did black powder, ZnS, sugar, and even tried unsuccessfully a liquid motor.
Fast forward several decades later, as a science teacher, I taught some rocketry in class and had an afterschool rocketry program, doing TARC and other things. We also experimented with making our own motors as I figured doing so under my supervision was better than them doing it on their own...and never had any do so.

Today, when people on the internet ask me how to make (sugar) motors, I do the usual, go to Nakka's site and seek out a mentor experienced in making motors, preferably experienced in the type of propellant the person wants to make. And though I've made my share of APCP, Hybrids, and a couple liquid motors, I would best be able to do 'sugar' motors (KNSB) having done an extensive number and sizes of them. So, if you have the skill in making motors, please avail yourself to those seeking to learn under the mentorship/supervision of an experienced person. Tripoli allows Level 2 certified people to fly motors they make but I believe thst just like having to have a experienced person oversee your Level-3 cert, people should have someone doing the same for motor making.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I think the biggest issue people that haven't been mentored in making rocket motors have is that there is no organization that sets safety standards for the making of rocket propellant like NAR and TRA do for flying rockets.

Before I respond, I would like to apologize for replying to a single statement made five months ago. Maybe my comment won’t even add value to the discussion.

NFPA 1125 is a pretty complete set of safety standards for the making of solid rocket propellant. Although it’s written to address commercial production of rocket motors and may have some requirements that don’t scale well to small scale operations, it truly does cover a lot of topics that would reduce the risks for anyone wishing to make their own propellant. At the very least those who wish to engage in making their own propellant should make themselves familiar with it.

 

[techrat]

Oh, TKOR is RIP? How did this guy die, by lighting off one of those sugar motors? I'm thinking of a Youtube channel about various ways you can maim or kill yourself with dangerous experiments, I wonder how many impressionable young people I can off-world by having them follow my videos. On the other hand, I have better things to do with my time. But I am glad to hear that TKOR is gone.

 

[Neutronium95]

Oh, TKOR is RIP? How did this guy die, by lighting off one of those sugar motors?

He died in a paragliding accident.

 

[Brandon.L]

He didn't mention anything about explosions or explosives, in his defense. It's a bit harsh to tell him to go away based on your own lack of reading comprehension. He took the initiative to ask questions on this forum, and seems receptive to advice.





































........................................................That's a start.

My sincerest apologies, you are absolutely correct in everything about your post.

I stand corrected, i owe an apology to cls; he was 100% right about his original response.

This topic is truly fascinating, and @Modskies I wish you good luck!