High Power Staging question

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Sooner Boomer

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How are the booster and upper stages fit together in a high power stack? Are they just friction fit like a low power Estes rocket? I've seen several videos on YouTube where it looks like the upper stage drag separates and continues for a second or two before igniting the motor (the booster continues to ascend as well before reaching apogee and deploying recovery).
 
That's how mine is. The first/second stage just slides into one another. I have a separation charge to separate the rocket if drag separation does not work.
 
Mine also. Just friction, but I do cut a slot in the booster coupler where the rail button screw goes. This is used to index the 2 together.
 
On rockets that are minimum diameter, it is possible to use the motor as the coupler. The motor extends out of the bottom of the air frame by a caliber or so and fits into the top of the booster. On my rockets, I put a bulkhead down into the booster for the sustainer to sit on. The bulkhead protects the booster chute from the separation charge and from the wind after separation. It's shear pinned to the booster.

On rockets that aren't minimum diameter, the most common approach is to use a coupler tube that goes up into the sustainer and down into the booster. This interstage coupler has a switchband on it. So, this coupler is essentially an "open" nose cone on the booster. There is a bulkhead inside of the coupler tube for connecting recovery harness and for isolation the separation charge from the booster chute. It is possible to put electronics for the booster and/or the separation charge in the lower part of the coupler below the bulkhead. I'm doing that on a rocket now. The coupler is shear pinned to the booster but not to the sustainer.

Jim
 
On my high power two-stage I use a coupler between the upper and lower stages to join them. I designed it to try to get it to drag separate, but, so far out of three flights that hasn't happened. I sanded the booster/sustainer coupler so that it was a very loose fit and I didn't round off the edges of the booster fins so they would have more drag, but, so far they have still stayed together until the upper motor lights. Part of my problem is that both the booster and the sustainer are 4" in diameter, so, there's no drag from a transition to help.

I knew that drag separation might not happen, so, I lined the inside of the coupler with thinned JB weld, so, it is protected from the exhaust of the upper motor. I'm considering adding a small separation charge that will be triggered by the altimeter that ignites the sustainer about 3/4 second before the sustainer fires. That way it is easier on the coupler and I can get the cool effect of the two parts flying together before the sustainer lights.

Here is a link to my build thread: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/blue-stage-high-power-two-stage.143899/
 
On my high power two-stage I use a coupler between the upper and lower stages to join them. I designed it to try to get it to drag separate, but, so far out of three flights that hasn't happened. I sanded the booster/sustainer coupler so that it was a very loose fit and I didn't round off the edges of the booster fins so they would have more drag, but, so far they have still stayed together until the upper motor lights. Part of my problem is that both the booster and the sustainer are 4" in diameter, so, there's no drag from a transition to help.

I knew that drag separation might not happen, so, I lined the inside of the coupler with thinned JB weld, so, it is protected from the exhaust of the upper motor. I'm considering adding a small separation charge that will be triggered by the altimeter that ignites the sustainer about 3/4 second before the sustainer fires. That way it is easier on the coupler and I can get the cool effect of the two parts flying together before the sustainer lights.

Here is a link to my build thread: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/blue-stage-high-power-two-stage.143899/
One factor that can prevent drag separation is torque in the air frame causing friction at the point of separation. I've had this happen. Don't assume that a size reduction from the booster to the sustainer increases the likelihood of drag separation. A larger booster is also relatively heavier, which works against drag separation. Having said the above, it appears that your rocket should drag separate.

Jim
 
On my high power two-stage I use a coupler between the upper and lower stages to join them. I designed it to try to get it to drag separate, but, so far out of three flights that hasn't happened. I sanded the booster/sustainer coupler so that it was a very loose fit and I didn't round off the edges of the booster fins so they would have more drag, but, so far they have still stayed together until the upper motor lights. Part of my problem is that both the booster and the sustainer are 4" in diameter, so, there's no drag from a transition to help.

I knew that drag separation might not happen, so, I lined the inside of the coupler with thinned JB weld, so, it is protected from the exhaust of the upper motor. I'm considering adding a small separation charge that will be triggered by the altimeter that ignites the sustainer about 3/4 second before the sustainer fires. That way it is easier on the coupler and I can get the cool effect of the two parts flying together before the sustainer lights.

Here is a link to my build thread: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/blue-stage-high-power-two-stage.143899/


Epoxy 3 or 4 drag paddles to the OD of your booster. Just simple basswood or fiberglass plinth blocks that protrude into the air stream about 3/8" with a 45° angle facing towards the direction of flight.

These would mimic the deployable drag paddles on the Talos-Taurus interstage. Except they would be permanent and be installed on the airframe.

Quick sketch below....


1641389694873.png
 
I used a coupler on top of the booster that slotted into the second stage by about the same distance as 1 tube diameter. the fit was loose, however I used a small separation charge set to burnout +0.5 seconds to separate the 2 pieces. I have also used 3 carbon rods sticking up from the top of the booster, that slot into 3 matching tubes mounted into the second stages motor mount. This method is more complex to build and get the fit right, however has the advantage of not needing to recess the bottom centring ring of the second stage to far into the body.
both of these methods can be seen in my 2 skylark builds.
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/skylark-sounding-rocket-pt-2-hpr.168596/https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/skylark-sounding-rocket.145395/
 
On rockets that are minimum diameter, it is possible to use the motor as the coupler. The motor extends out of the bottom of the air frame by a caliber or so and fits into the top of the booster.

With apologies for resurrecting an old thread, how does this work? It must require an aft closure without a thrust ring, but within what hardware sets are those available? Is this a Loki thing?
 
With apologies for resurrecting an old thread, how does this work? It must require an aft closure without a thrust ring, but within what hardware sets are those available? Is this a Loki thing?
In general, this is done with motors that don't have a thrust ring. Some cases, such as the old AMW cases, had a spring-like thrust ring that could be removed. It may also be possible to remove the thrust ring. I explored this a few years ago with CTI motors (for 75 and 98mm). As I recall, this is a modification that would need to be done by the manufacturer in order to retain the status of a commercial motor.

In other cases, I have had a motor extend from the back of the rocket where the exposed part was covered by a sleeve. Then, the lower tube was made oversize so that the sleeved motor would fit into it. A pic is attached.]

There are lots of motors, particularly smaller ones, where this approach won't be an option.

Jim
DSC02440.JPG
 
In general, this is done with motors that don't have a thrust ring. Some cases, such as the old AMW cases, had a spring-like thrust ring that could be removed. It may also be possible to remove the thrust ring. I explored this a few years ago with CTI motors (for 75 and 98mm). As I recall, this is a modification that would need to be done by the manufacturer in order to retain the status of a commercial motor.

In other cases, I have had a motor extend from the back of the rocket where the exposed part was covered by a sleeve. Then, the lower tube was made oversize so that the sleeved motor would fit into it. A pic is attached.]

There are lots of motors, particularly smaller ones, where this approach won't be an option.

Jim
View attachment 623052
That sleeve idea is very interesting. Did you then have to make the oversize tube yourself?
 
With apologies for resurrecting an old thread, how does this work? It must require an aft closure without a thrust ring, but within what hardware sets are those available? Is this a Loki thing?
With CTI, just turn down the aft closures on the smaller motors. I believe the 75 and 98 can be removed. Yes, they will become research motors.
 
go to the tripoli website and look at the magazine. Fred Traverni, who is one of the gurus of HP staging, did a series of articles that fully explain all of it.
 
With apologies for resurrecting an old thread, how does this work? It must require an aft closure without a thrust ring, but within what hardware sets are those available? Is this a Loki thing?

With CTI, just turn down the aft closures on the smaller motors. I believe the 75 and 98 can be removed. Yes, they will become research motors.
CTI 29mm and 54mm have factory flush aft closures available:

http://pro38.com/pdfs/Pro29_dimensions.pdfhttp://pro38.com/pdfs/Pro54_dimensions.pdf
Gary has suggested that AT may do something similar.
 
Your are correct regarding the 29mm. The tapered closure is the same diameter as the tube.

That is not the same regarding the 54mm. If the diagram is correct, the tapered closure diameter is greater than that of the tube (2.25 vs 2.125).

I have both. The 54 is slightly larger then the tube making it act like a thrust ring.
 
Yes. The tubes in the picture are tubes that I roll.

Jim
If I used this approach for what I have in mind, ideally the interstage coupler tube would be the only oversized tube. The flange on the aft closure would then be sandwiched between two regular-sized (98mm) motor mount tubes, and the thrust force from the booster would be transmitted up to the sustained through the flange. Is that the force path you end up with? Or does your oversized coupler tube butt up against another oversized tube in the the sustainer and provide a force path that doesn't run though the aft closure flange?
 
If I used this approach for what I have in mind, ideally the interstage coupler tube would be the only oversized tube. The flange on the aft closure would then be sandwiched between two regular-sized (98mm) motor mount tubes, and the thrust force from the booster would be transmitted up to the sustained through the flange. Is that the force path you end up with? Or does your oversized coupler tube butt up against another oversized tube in the the sustainer and provide a force path that doesn't run though the aft closure flange?
In the picture I posted above, both of the airframe tubes are oversized. Therefore, for that rocket, the airframes push against each other to transfer the forced. However, it is almost a certainty that I would also have had what I refer to as a faux nosecone recessed 5" or so down into the booster airframe. There would be a coupler ring glued into the airframe and the faux nosecone would sit on that ring. Then, the motor tube would sit on that faux nose cone, so its possible that some thrust gets transfered in that manner.

The picture below shows a variety of the faux nose cones that I have built over the years. This is an essential component in minimum diameter staging. The faux nose cone performs several functions. One thing it does is to help transfer thrust. It also provides a cavity for a separation charge and a means for wiring to get to the bottom of the motor. It protects the recovery equipment below it, and it is typically weighted with lead so that it can assist in pulling the chute out of the booster. The faux nose cone is also designed such that it is slightly undersized so that it can't get stuck in the airframe tube no matter what orientation it is in. It would not be possible to do staging as I do it without this component.

Jim

Faux Cones.jpg
 
I do have a rocket, though, that uses an oversized tube for the interstage coupler. A couple of pics are attached, but I have little chance of explaining how it works (I don't own any normal rockets). For that rocket, the interstage coupler also serves as a motor mount, a conduit for wires and the bottom bearing surface of a spin can. But it also contains the faux nose cone, which sits on the airframe tube that goes into the oversized tube. What goes in the top could be a sleeved motor or the upper airframe.

Jim

IMG_4137.jpgIMG_4138.jpg
 
It is possible to put electronics for the booster and/or the separation charge in the lower part of the coupler below the bulkhead. I'm doing that on a rocket now.

I’ve tried to launch two stage rockets with the electronics in the booster coupler and have been told several times by Tripoli FSO that I can’t launch unless the electronics are in the sustainer. Also, they wouldn’t allow me to fly without a tilt interrupt. So, all new electronics are required for a rocket I’ve successfully flown many times. Gripe, gripe, gripe. Anyway, it’s their rules and I’m OK with that, just be prepared to get turned away at some launches. Maybe fly under research rules?
 
I’ve tried to launch two stage rockets with the electronics in the booster coupler and have been told several times by Tripoli FSO that I can’t launch unless the electronics are in the sustainer. Also, they wouldn’t allow me to fly without a tilt interrupt. So, all new electronics are required for a rocket I’ve successfully flown many times. Gripe, gripe, gripe. Anyway, it’s their rules and I’m OK with that, just be prepared to get turned away at some launches. Maybe fly under research rules?
I don't know the circumstances where you were denied, but it is just fine to have electronics in the coupler. The pic shows several examples from my rockets. I personally don't like the idea of having the igniter in the coupler - I always do that from above - but separation charges or electronics for recovery of the booster are fine.

So far as I'm aware, there is no rule that requires tilt for two-stagers. I think a local field could do whatever they wanted and maybe that is what you encountered. Personally, I fly with tilt lockout whenever I can, combined with an altitude check. I don't think any high power two stager should fly with a simple timer, and if that's what you were doing, then I would say time to upgrade.

I'll let you know the next time I get turned down for a two-stage flight, although there are a few times when that might not have been a bad idea (Bad Idea knows where the dirt is).

Jim

Electronics in coupler.jpg
 
I don't know the circumstances where you were denied, but it is just fine to have electronics in the coupler. The pic shows several examples from my rockets. I personally don't like the idea of having the igniter in the coupler - I always do that from above - but separation charges or electronics for recovery of the booster are fine.

So far as I'm aware, there is no rule that requires tilt for two-stagers. I think a local field could do whatever they wanted and maybe that is what you encountered. Personally, I fly with tilt lockout whenever I can, combined with an altitude check. I don't think any high power two stager should fly with a simple timer, and if that's what you were doing, then I would say time to upgrade.

I'll let you know the next time I get turned down for a two-stage flight, although there are a few times when that might not have been a bad idea (Bad Idea knows where the dirt is).

Jim

View attachment 623492
I’m working on a couple of egg timers, so I’ll have everything on one tiny board. My rocket was very much like what’s in your picture but made from cardboard for H to H flights. After I rearranged everything it got heavy and I used I to H. The tilt lockout is a great idea. I’ve clustered mixed media and had rockets go sideways. Don’t do it! I’m sure Murphy has something to do with the fact that rockets always seem to fly at the most expensive camper or into the crowd, they never seem to scoot out over the desert. I can see tilt lockout being a great safety feature.
 
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