High power recomendation

[jerryb]

OK guys and gals,

planning a winter build to try for Level 1 in the spring...

If you had to pick a kit out there to do this... for at or under $100.00 what would the choice be... also, not a big fan of modding a kit right off the bat..

So the choice should be a kit that if built STOCK would perform well, meet the criteria for passing level one cert... which i'm guessing would be to stay together.

thanks
Jerryb

 

[n3tjm]

LOC EZI-65 . Flies great on G40's up to small J motors. Largest motor I flown mine with is a I161. Did I mention it was a GREAT rocket? .

If you can find it for under $100, the LOC Minie Magg is also an awesome choice. Flown mine many times with H220's and H242's. Flies great.

I-ROC, though more than $100, is also a good choice. AWESOME rocket... Flies well on H128's, and you can do L2 with a J350 in it .
Can't wait to try the LOKI long burn motors in mine .

 

[Justin Horne]

Perhaps a PML Black Brant VB? Quite nice L1 kit.

 

[DynaSoar]

Originally posted by jerryb
OK guys and gals,

planning a winter build to try for Level 1 in the spring...

If you had to pick a kit out there to do this... for at or under $100.00 what would the choice be... also, not a big fan of modding a kit right off the bat..

So the choice should be a kit that if built STOCK would perform well, meet the criteria for passing level one cert... which i'm guessing would be to stay together.

thanks
Jerryb

LOC Vulcanite H76. $49.95 from Great Lakes. It's a bit more straight forward than the EZI 65. It comes with a 38/29mm adapter, so you can fly it on an AT 29/240 RMS with H motor loads. It'll fly on an F up through I. It has a payload section so you can put in electronics later if you want. It's a good, simple first L1 bird with a proven design, is not as wide or heavy as some other birds and so will outperform them, and is solid enough to last a lot of flights. Even with shipping you'll have enough of your $100 left over for finishing materials and motors.

Note that any LOC/Precision kit is going to require a mod for positive motor retention. This is not a problem. You can buy a Slimline or similar, or a very cheap bracket system. I simply embedded two small bolts head first into the epoxy I poured between the body and motor tubes, and put nuts and washers on them. In fact I did mine *after* it was done by drilling into the epoxy and pouring more over. Doing it while building would be a snap. You can have two different size washers to hold in a 38mm and for holding in a 29mm in the adapter. I'd also build in a decent thrust ring because I don't trust tape fit if I can still move the motor by hand. That just takes a bit of epoxy and slice of tube coupler or similar.

 

[llickteig1]

I don't mean to hijack your thread here, but you know what would be cool?

A sticky file attached to the top of the HPR forum (like the motor dealers listing in Propulsion) in which folks can list their certification level rockets (1 & 2), the motor used, and a 1 sentence description/explanation/disclaimer about the flight and/or a link to pictures. There used to be one of these floating around r.m.r. that was kind of fun to read and for the frequent queries, "What rocket do you reccommend for my cert flight?" it would give a place to go for folks to see what others have done.

My entry for L1 would be:
PML Callisto. H128. Great flight, but pretty fast and high for a cert 1 flight.

My L2 would be:
PML Tethys. J275. Awesome flight, rocket was stretched for dual deployment. https://members.cox.net/rocketry/cert2.html

 

[n3tjm]

The EZI and Vulcanite are good choices... they are both identical construction wise (unless they changed something since I had one), the only thing is the EZI is fatter and taller .

I would still choose the EZI (or other similarly sized rocket) over the Vulcanite for L1 (or other similarly sized rocket)... reason? Its a bigger rocket... you can see it when flown on H and small I's. Unless you have a really big flying field, I recommend not going for altitude on your cert flight, especially if the motor hardware is borrowed .

As far as motor retention goes... that is an option. With the EZI (or other similarly sized rocket), all you need to certify is the kit, tube of epoxy, roll of masking tape, and a 29/54mm adapter, wadding, and your motor. Motor retention adds a small challenge to the project. You have to decide how to do it, and what to use? Simple bolts, washers, or nuts? Or go for broke and buy a retainer? Or do what I usually do... friction fit. Wrap tape around the motor so it goes in the tube with some effort... and then won't comeout manually.... Fly the rocket. And then use a wooden dowel to knock the motor loose. Cheap, easy, less to decide on... and reliable for motors this size . Some retainers limit your motor choices, so I find myself friction fitting anyway...

Now when you get to J size motors and above for L2... their charges get on the high side... then I would seiously think about motor retention... I never lost a case friction fitting... but the price and power of the J and larger hardware... the extra effort is worth it

My additional 2 cents

 

[Johnnie]

As mentioned already, Loc Precision has an assortment of L1 possibles that are great. I might just add that the Aerotech Sumo makes for a great crossover into HPR, as it will fly on the smaller consumer use motors as well as an H128 or similar 29mm HPR reload.

Personally I certed L1 on a Vaughn Brothers Rocketry 2.6" Javelin, but you can't hardly find these anymore as VBR is out of business.

Keep us posted and good luck.

 

[lalligood]

I can't believe there have been so many posts with suggestions that did NOT include the BSD Horizon. Excellent choice for those "slow 'n' low" certifications. Combine that rocket with a Pro38 H153 & you're all but guaranteed a successful cert! With BSD though, I'd email them before placing your order from them directly (they were having some production problems a couple months back) or order from one of their dealers.

Or if you wanted to do something *really* different for a cert, check out the deal Art Applewhite has going for certifying with one of his saucers!

Good luck with whatever you choose!

 

[loopy]

I've built and will (eventually) do my cert flight on my PML Small Endeavour. Great kit, under $100, flies on G-I motors with no problems, and I built mine in about a day.

Loopy

 

[Bullpup]

I would recommend this...

Pick a 3" kit from PML with a 38mm motor mount
Buy a AeroPack 38mm motor retainer
Buy a Rocket Man R4 parachute
Buy ACME rail guids for it.
Foam the fin can.

Cert on a 38mm two grain motor with a medium delay. It would give you a very nice bullet proof rocket that will work well for years to come.

 

[rstaff3]

I didn't cert on my Small Endeavour, but will attest it flies great on Gs and Hs. Great kit, easy to build and prep and plenty tough. (due to the Quantum Tube I don't fly it in freezing weather, but then I don't fly hardly anything in freezing weather)

BTW, most any 3" - 4" entry level kit from a reputable vendor (LOC, PML, Public Enemy, BSD, Binder etc etc etc. ) will be fine for a cert. Buy one that suits your price and style tastes. If you can build a MPR rocket and can mix epoxy, you can build most any L1 capable kit.

Some one will point out that with an all paper/wood kit the epoxy may not be necessary But its a good idea to get used to using it anyway.

 

[rstaff3]

The mods I recommend in general and if not included, are rail buttons, a kevlar chute protector, and positive retention. The chute protector can move between rockets easily, the buttons are nice and cheap from railbuttons.com, and t-nuts and mirror hangers work well for retention. But them Aeropacks sure are purty...and cool

 

[DynaSoar]

Originally posted by Johnnierkt
As mentioned already, Loc Precision has an assortment of L1 possibles that are great. I might just add that the Aerotech Sumo makes for a great crossover into HPR, as it will fly on the smaller consumer use motors as well as an H128 or similar 29mm HPR reload.

And the AT Mirage. I didn't mention AT birds because they;re all 29mm and there's far more 38mm stuff available.

 

[lalligood]

Originally posted by DynaSoar
... and there's far more 38mm stuff available.

Besides, you can always adapt down to a smaller diameter motor (i.e., use a 29mm motor in a 38mm MMT), but you can NEVER adapt up!

Some food for thought.... (and count me in as another rocketeer in favor of rail buttons!)

 

[GL-P]

I love doing scratch building. You determine what you want. I've made some really nice rockets (and some not so nice) Just keep it simple and the results can be very rewarding. i've learned more from scratchbuilding than kits. My biggest kit so far is a PML IO. I have no plans to buy bigger kits.

This bird flew on an I170 twice perfectly. It has a built in electronics bay with just enough room for an MAD. The deployment was absolutely perfect both times.

 

[Johnnie]

Use rail buttons, not ACME rail guides...you may find a launch group that will not let you fly because you would have metal rail guides. As we all know, metal on metal can be a bad combination. The ACME rail guides have been known to damage more expensive rails, and launch groups are shying away from them...besides, last time I purchased buttons, they were a quarter a piece

 

[Chuck Rudy]

Small Endeavor just looks cool sitting on the pad, and it's a 38mm flier.

 

[Missileman]

I did my L1 with a PML Amraam 2 with a slimline retainer.
My daughter did hers on a PML Callisto.
Both are great fliers.

 

[Bullpup]

There is a reason for the ACME on PML kits. They don't interfear with piston ejection. On other paper tube kits I would use buttons but not on PML kits. Like anything, they have a place to be used and not used. The fear about metal guides stems from the old Blacksky stainless steel buttons. There were very real problems with them and were banned. The ACME guides came along later and they do work well. They are cut so that they cannot dig in and are made from a weaker alloy than the rail is. If you use them you will still run into people against them. Just like there are people who think you cannot use metal in the construction of a rocket. Enjoy the hobby. I hope you have a long future in it. Come fly at Blackrock sometime. It is rocket Mecca.

 

[cls]

if you want inexpensive, scratchbuilt, build a crayon rocket.

ralphco crayon - $6
15" piece of LOC 29mm MMT - $2
some 1/8" plywood for fins and MMT rings and NC baffle - $10
10' of 1/8" shock cord - $3
2 eye bolts & nuts - $1
1 yard of ripstop nylon to make the parachute - $6
put it all together with yellow glue - $0.25
use gorilla glue for the NC baffle

fly it on an H97, H128, or H165 - $14
if you buy the 29/180 motor then add about $60

 

[dragonshiprider]

LOC Forte' on a Vulcan H-100-10 for my first TRA L1 cert.Left for a while and then came back.Recerted on the same rocket with an Aerotech H-97 with I believe another ten second delay.All of that has gone by the wayside now.The TRA faded away and the Forte' came to rather loud,dramatic and dirt chuckin' halt.Possibly next spring I will have built another Forte' and will go for my NAR L1 cert.I could even do it now with my Mountainside 4" V-2,my PML Black Brant VB or even my LOC Lil' Nuke possibley but wanting to cert on another Forte' will get me off my duff and inspire me to go ahead and build it rather than let it slip by undone.

 

[rstaff3]

Originally posted by Bullpup
There is a reason for the ACME on PML kits. They don't interfear with piston ejection. On other paper tube kits I would use buttons but not on PML kits. Like anything, they have a place to be used and not used. The fear about metal guides stems from the old Blacksky stainless steel buttons. There were very real problems with them and were banned. The ACME guides came along later and they do work well. They are cut so that they cannot dig in and are made from a weaker alloy than the rail is. If you use them you will still run into people against them. Just like there are people who think you cannot use metal in the construction of a rocket. Enjoy the hobby. I hope you have a long future in it. Come fly at Blackrock sometime. It is rocket Mecca.

I have buttons on my Small Endeavour and it doesn't interfere with the piston. The top button is pretty low.

However it is a good point to check this before you drill the QT!

 

[lalligood]

Alternately, check out my PML Phobos review at EMRR for how I attached my rail buttons and still use the piston...

HTH,

 

[Stymye]

how about a 38mm applewhite cone?

 

[bobkrech]

There's a lot of good rockets out here for $100 or less, and many have been mentioned, but another perhaps more important question to ask is how big is your launch field. If your field is large, it doesn't matter, but near Eastern metropolitan centers, fields greater than a few hundred acres are getting scarce.

You can do a level 1 cert with anything from a minimum diameter 29 mm rocket to a lightweight 5.5"-6" diameter bird, the primary difference is the altitude you will obtain. If you're near an urban area with relatively small fields, you want to consider a larger kit to keep the altitude down so you will recover your rocket without undo effort. Remember that in a 10 mph wind, a rocket drifts 1 ft sideways on recovery for evey 1 ft of altitude.

For example, a 1.6" LOC Legacy on an H128 will reach 4200 ft., whereas as a 2.6" AeroTech Mirage will reach 2050 ft on the same motor. A 4" LOC EZ-65 or 4" BSD Horizon will reach ~1250 ft with the same H128, but a 5.5" LOC Mini-Mag will reach only 860 ft. with the H128.

All these kits are below $100 and have a thrust to weight ratio greater than 10:1 with an H128 (which is about as cheap a L1 motor as you can get). Also remember it's a lot easier to track a 4" rocket at 1300 ft, than a minimum diameter one at 4000 ft.

For your cert flight, use the KISS principle. Do nothing extreme. 3 or 4FNC with motor ejection is all that is required. You don't need electronics or anything to make life more complicated. Get the HP cert out of the way first, then if you want to get more complicated, you can do so with out the pressure of a cert flight.

Good luck.

Bob Krech

 

[jerryb]

For your cert flight, use the KISS principle. Do nothing extreme. 3 or 4FNC with motor ejection is all that is required. You don't need electronics or anything to make life more complicated. Get the HP cert out of the way first, then if you want to get more complicated, you can do so with out the pressure of a cert flight.

Good luck.

Bob Krech [/B]

that as definately been the plan from the beginning

 

[Thrasher]

I certified level one on a Public Enemy Extreme Performer (4") on an AT I195J. The rocket was about $74. Here's a pre-cert. photo.

 

[SpartaChris]

I got my Level 1 cert on a PML Bull Pup. It was $80 something total, including shipping from Magnum. It's a sweet looking rocket, very simple to build and is pretty forgiving. Plus you can fly in on G's through I's stock, and J's with some minor midding.

-Chris