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nomopbo

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I am certain I could find this out by doing a search, but I was overwhelmed with the results when I searched "LEUP"

Anyhoo,

If you are level 1, do you have to have a LEUP?

And if you are level 1...
it doesn't sound like you can have three or four "I" motors sitting on your shelf in the basement like a pack of Estes D's, so whats the deal on that? Buy and burn at the launch site?

Thanks!
 

Ray Dunakin

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Originally posted by nomopbo
If you are level 1, do you have to have a LEUP?
No. You don't even have to have a LEUP if you're Level 2 or 3 either. LEUPs have nothing to do with cert levels.

As for buying motors, here's the scoop:

ALL "fully assembled rocket motors" are exempt from ATF at this time because they are classified as Propellent Actuated Devices. That includes single use motors and assembled reloads. Technically, even reload kits should be exempt too (just as nailgun cartridges are exempt). Whether ATF (or your local vendor) will see it that way remains to be seen.

Currently most of the 29mm and 38mm reloads are exempt from ATF because they contain grains weighing no more than 62.5 grams.

At most launches, if there's a vendor on-site, you can buy and fly any size motor under the "supervision" of the vendor or another LEUP holder.

The ATF has already issued a "Notice of Proposed Rule Making" which will, among other things, eliminate the 62.5g per grain exemption. It has not yet gone into effect, and no one knows when or if it ever will. They have also stated a desire to issue an NPRM to eliminate the PAD exemption, but have not yet done so.


it doesn't sound like you can have three or four "I" motors sitting on your shelf in the basement like a pack of Estes D's, so whats the deal on that? Buy and burn at the launch site?
Most folks buy and fly at the launch.

Fully assembled rocket motors are exempt from ATF storage requirements.
 

thomasrau

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Nomopbo,

Excellent question, and you aren't the only one that's overwhelmed. Like most gov't rules, those applying to rocketry are written in such a way as to force confusion. Ask 10 BATFE agents a question and get as many different answers.
Ray did an outstanding job explaining the current state of affairs. All I can add is this, just go out and have fun flying. Hopefully you have access to a club field that has an onsite vendor that will assist you, or fellow members with a LEUP. If you are lucky enough to be able to qualify for a storage magazine by all means get a LEUP, then you can help others to continue to enjoy the hobby.
 

nomopbo

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That makes so much more since now!
Thanks
 

karatekicker271

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Originally posted by Ray Dunakin
.

Fully assembled rocket motors are exempt from ATF storage requirements.
Does that mean SU motors, or does it mean assembled reloads. If that means reloads, does that mean you can have a fully assembled J-350 sitting around?
 

thomasrau

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Hmmmmm, tough one, this is where it gets confusing. Once assembled it is a PAD, and currently exempt. However many would argue that since 968 hasn't yet been enacted, that easy access still exists and therefore a J350 is exempt whether or not it is assembled.
 

scm86

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i think the J350 is a bad example, lets go with something like an M, since they werent exempt before (im talkin solids here). once its assembled, it should be a PAD, but, you need the reload kit to do that, and that is regulated.

That raises the question, could one purchase a fully assembled M reload from someone w/o a permit. albeit that motor couldnt be used for a cert motor, since you didnt assemble it.

just my .02 cents worth, feel free to give change...

oh, and I currently have one I in my motor box but i have had upto 4 or 5 H and I's at once, no problems here, and i usually preorder for pickup at launch's, since i have no real need to store the motor if i can get it when i get to the field...

Scott McNeely
 

thomasrau

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The way I understand the current rules the answer would be yes. A fully assembled reloadable motor is a PAD and therefore exempt.
 

Chilly

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It seems to vary greatly depending on location.
 

cls

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Chilly, this should not vary at all, at any location. if you find any variance in enforcement or understanding of the ruling, call NAR or TRA immediately!
 

Ray Dunakin

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Originally posted by scm86
That raises the question, could one purchase a fully assembled M reload from someone w/o a permit. albeit that motor couldnt be used for a cert motor, since you didnt assemble it.
Yes, the judge has ruled that once the motor is assembled it is a PAD and exempt from ATF. So if worse came to worst, vendors could assemble motors into hardware provided by the flyer, and then the flyer could buy the assembled motor without a LEUP.

However, there is precedent for exempting even the reload kits. For instance, a nailgun is a Propellent Actuated Device and thus exempt from ATF regulation. Nailgun cartridges are not "devices", they are merely a component of the device, yet they are also unregulated. You can walk into a hardware store and buy all you want, no permits needed. The same _should_ be true of reloads for rocket motors. Whether the ATF agrees with that assessment remains to be seen, and the court has not yet specifically addressed this.

Furthermore, both reloads and nailgun cartridges consist of a container holding a propellent charge. One container happens to be a brass tube, the other is paper, but both are specfically designed for the sole purpose of being used in a PAD.
 

loopy

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As for storage of the motors, (I'm no expert, this is just what's in my head, and I can't remember exactly how it got there) and how many you can have, with exempt motors it doesn't matter. With regulated motors, I seem to remember it was limited by weight. Something like 50 pounds if I'm not mistaken. Someone with more knowledge on that part - help me out!!! lol

Loopy
 

thomasrau

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Good question Loopy, the answer is... it depends.
You are allowed whatever your storage is approved for, most people get approved for 50#. However if you have the room and meet the distance requirements you could set up a cargo container on your property and get up to 10,000# or more approved.
 
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