High Power Noob and a Madcow 2.6" AGM-33 Pike

[RLB454]

Hello All! I've been carousing the forum a couple weeks now and learning a lot. I just got my new Madcow kit in and figured it was time to say hello and start a build thread. I have been searching for specific info that will help me out, but to be honest, a lot of the info just whizzes over my head. I am not new to model rocketry, but all my experience is in the Estes low power kits. I am pretty excited to have discovered high power, and I get to start this adventure with my sons (they already have visions of that L3 cert!)

So here are my plans at the moment:
Madcow AGM-33 Pike 2.6". So far I am very impressed with this kit, the quality, and the service from MC
Possible dual deployment
Nose cone altimeter bay
Ejection baffle. Already experimented a little with low power and some fancy 3D printing

Like I mentioned, I am new to this and have been looking for some threads to give me some tips, but really looking for the starting points for this build that are basic. I know I dont need to get very advanced with this kit, and most of the time simpler is better, but I would like to prepare this bird for more advanced features to add on later.

So far I have:
MC AGM-33 Pike
MC fiberglass altimeter bay
Aero Pack motor retainer
Rocketman 48" Pro Exp chute
Fiberglass coupler to build ejection baffle

I have not started to assemble any part of this kit yet, I just want to make sure all my ducks are in a row first. Thanks in advance for any tips and for any direction to helpful threads. Anyone near the Grand Junction Colorado area?

Here are a couple of quick phone pics:

Kit layed out with a .50 cal case beside it for size reference... plus who doesnt like a pic of a .50 cal case?


Nose cone with sweet metal tip:

 

[DavidMcCann]

Sweet kit. DD will be tricky. Have you looked at jolly logic's chute release?

as for the baffle, I'd drop that idea. Get a Kevlar blanket and be done with it.

 

[Rex R]

looks like recovery space will be at a premium... I would echo the advice, skip the baffle. you'll be needing a chute protector when you DD the thing...a 48" chute will be a challenge to pack down small enough to fit...build/paint it first then weigh it and consider what size chute you actually need, I used a 48" for a 10 pound rocket.
Rex

 

[noffie79]

I'd definitely be using the Chute Release. Keep things simple and it'll give you a lot of enjoyment.

 

[crossfire]

Welcome to the hobby. When you get the kit built contact me and we will help you with the chute size.

 

[Flyfalcons]

Nice looking bird! Like others have said, I'd stick with motor ejection on this and use a chute release. An altimeter in the nose can be done; I'd just use one for altitude data instead of dual-deploy. I also like the look of the Pike and recently got the little 1.6" cardboard version for park flying at my local field. Welcome!

 

[noffie79]

I got the 4" version of this for Christmas. It will be almost identical to my L2 PAC-3 build. Flies great. I really wish the 4" came in FG though.

 

[RLB454]

Thanks for the tips and welcomes! As with most things, simpler is better, and you guys are confirming that for me. I have been contemplating the Jolly Logic chute release, are there any others besides the JL? I do want to prep the nosecone for an altimeter to do some data logging, not to be all scientific and such, I just think it would be a lot of fun in addition to gaining more knowledge for the next kit.

How about foam in between the airframe and motor tube? I saw someone did this but there was no explanation of the product, is this a common thing or just an extra step that doesnt have much benefit?

 

[noffie79]

Thanks for the tips and welcomes! As with most things, simpler is better, and you guys are confirming that for me. I have been contemplating the Jolly Logic chute release, are there any others besides the JL? I do want to prep the nosecone for an altimeter to do some data logging, not to be all scientific and such, I just think it would be a lot of fun in addition to gaining more knowledge for the next kit.

How about foam in between the airframe and motor tube? I saw someone did this but there was no explanation of the product, is this a common thing or just an extra step that doesnt have much benefit?

As far as I'm aware, there are no other products besides cable cutters that do the job that the Chute Release does. But Chute Release does it without the need for any more explosives. It's definitely a worthwhile investment.
As far as foaming the fin can, others may disagree, but with a build like this, foam will not be needed and it will only add unneeded weight at the wrong end of your rocket. Some decent internal/external fillets will be just fine.

 

[Hobie1dog]

Welcome to the forum. We love photos.

 

[Buckeye]

I'll take different tact. If a lot of the info you see here whizzes over your head, then maybe take a step back? Try a mid-power rocket (LOC, Aerotech, even Estes PSII) or cardboard high power rocket (LOC, Madcow) to help you bridge the gap from low power techniques to heavy fiberglass techniques.

 

[DavidMcCann]

If you're going to insult him, do it right

TAKE A DIFFERENT TACK. This expression has nothing to do with tactfulness and everything to do with sailing, in which it is a direction taken as one tacks—abruptly turns—a boat. To “take a different tack” is to try another approach.

 

[Steve Shannon]

If you're going to insult him, do it right

TAKE A DIFFERENT TACK. This expression has nothing to do with tactfulness and everything to do with sailing, in which it is a direction taken as one tacks—abruptly turns—a boat. To “take a different tack” is to try another approach.

Or he could have said try a different tactic...

The thing is, we all knew what he meant and nobody else felt the need to correct him.


Steve Shannon

 

[DavidMcCann]

Or he could have said try a different tactic...

The thing is, we all knew what he meant and nobody else felt the need to correct him.


Steve Shannon

well, I did feel the need. So I did.

 

[bill2654]

I just finish a 2.6" av-bay with HED. (Head End Deploy) I have a Top-Flight 42" X-Type chute packed inside the nose cone.
Inside the av-bay is a MissleWorks RtXGPS and a RRC3, two switches and two batteries. You need a nose cone with the separate shoulder/coupler. (6")

 

[lawndartman]

RLB sent you a PM

 

[MikeyDSlagle]

Building a bay into the nose cone isn't too difficult. It looks like your nose cone has a separate coupler to attach to make a shoulder, that makes it even easier. You should have room for traditional dual deploy as well, depending on how big a motor you will put in it, but also depends on how long your body tube is.
If you go with using a chute release you can use you a deployment controller in your nosecone bay to pop the bundled main at apogee. The the chute release to let the main open.

If you want an altimeter just for flight logging, Jolly Logic makes some nice ones. The Altimeter 2 or 3 will be good.

The stuff that whizzes by will all make sense before long. Just keep reading and asking questions.

Mikey D

 

[Buckeye]

If you're going to insult him, do it right

TAKE A DIFFERENT TACK. This expression has nothing to do with tactfulness and everything to do with sailing, in which it is a direction taken as one tacks—abruptly turns—a boat. To “take a different tack” is to try another approach.

I stand corrected, but wow, just wow. With all the rampant spelling, grammar, and syntax errors on this forum, you are going to bust my balls on this one?!?!?! By the way, you missed a punctuation mark in your post (the sentence you wrote, not the one you copied from Google.) :eyeroll:

Also, there is no insult here, just a suggestion. The OP said he did not understand some aspects of HPR. My different TACK was to suggest that he gain experience in the MPR world.

 

[boatgeek]

One thing I wish I had done on my MC Arcas kit was to disregard instructions in assembling the motor mount. The Arcas instructions said to glue the two centering rings to the motor mount, then glue the motor mount into the airframe, then glue the fins down with epoxy on the root of the fin and then external fillets. Instead, I would go with the following order for a stronger fin can:

Glue forward centering ring to motor mount
Glue forward centering ring to airframe, using the aft centering ring dry fit (no glue) to keep it straight
Pull out the aft centering ring, glue in fins
Fillet all the fin to motor mount and airframe connections
Glue aft centering ring to motor mount and airframe
Glue on retainer (if used)

Hope this helps!

 

[sharkbait]

One thing I wish I had done on my MC Arcas kit was to disregard instructions in assembling the motor mount. The Arcas instructions said to glue the two centering rings to the motor mount, then glue the motor mount into the airframe, then glue the fins down with epoxy on the root of the fin and then external fillets. Instead, I would go with the following order for a stronger fin can:

Glue forward centering ring to motor mount
Glue forward centering ring to airframe, using the aft centering ring dry fit (no glue) to keep it straight
Pull out the aft centering ring, glue in fins
Fillet all the fin to motor mount and airframe connections
Glue aft centering ring to motor mount and airframe
Glue on retainer (if used)

Hope this helps!

I do the same thing but I just TACT all my fins in place before FOOLY glueing them

 

[noffie79]

I do the same thing but I just TACT all my fins in place before FOOLY glueing them

I see what you did there...

 

[RLB454]

I'll take different tact. If a lot of the info you see here whizzes over your head, then maybe take a step back? Try a mid-power rocket (LOC, Aerotech, even Estes PSII) or cardboard high power rocket (LOC, Madcow) to help you bridge the gap from low power techniques to heavy fiberglass techniques.

Wow, this reply got some attention

No worries on my end, I knew what you meant and no offense was taken. As far as starting of with the above mentioned kits, both my son and son in law have recently built the Aerotech and Estes PSII kits, and have used the F and G motors, and I got to play along. The kits that I have personally built so far have been cardboard, but I have some pretty involved experience with fiberglass mold making, so the fiberglass construction presents no difficulty for me. Plus, for just a little bit more $$ (and some are even the same price), fiberglass construction is a no brainer. A lot of the things that are wizzing over my head are all the abbreviations and such. I am sure that with a little time as mentioned already, these things will start to make a bit more sense.

 

[RLB454]

One thing I wish I had done on my MC Arcas kit was to disregard instructions in assembling the motor mount. The Arcas instructions said to glue the two centering rings to the motor mount, then glue the motor mount into the airframe, then glue the fins down with epoxy on the root of the fin and then external fillets. Instead, I would go with the following order for a stronger fin can:

Glue forward centering ring to motor mount
Glue forward centering ring to airframe, using the aft centering ring dry fit (no glue) to keep it straight
Pull out the aft centering ring, glue in fins
Fillet all the fin to motor mount and airframe connections
Glue aft centering ring to motor mount and airframe
Glue on retainer (if used)

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the tip, I was talking to my son about this very thing today, with the same idea. Especially with such a long motor tube because of the twin fins, this seems like a must to build with the aft centering ring loose until the fins are complete.

 

[RLB454]

Good info guys, thanks! Bill2654, thanks for the pics, this is pretty much what I was imagining it might look like.

Looking at the main body tube this evening, and the length of the motor tube because of the fin set up, it does not seem that a dual deploy is an option with this kit....looks like I am just going to have to buy the 5.5" AGM 33 Pike :lol:

 

[bill2654]

With HED, any length tube can be a dual deploy. You don't need a break in the airframe to do DD. With HED the nose cone/av-bay separates at apogee. Then at the pre determined altitude, the main chute which is packed inside the NC is deployed. If you look at my second picture you will see my chute packed up in the nose cone.
In you're case I would build it stock and get a 38mm to 29mm motor adapter and fly a few G's and baby H's to get the hang of singly deploy. Learn to adjust delays so you get your deployments right on, or as close to apogee as possible. Then when you are comfy with that then tackle dual deploy. Simple can be very enjoyable. Good luck to you and your son.

 

[Buckeye]

Wow, this reply got some attention

No worries on my end, I knew what you meant and no offense was taken. As far as starting of with the above mentioned kits, both my son and son in law have recently built the Aerotech and Estes PSII kits, and have used the F and G motors, and I got to play along. The kits that I have personally built so far have been cardboard, but I have some pretty involved experience with fiberglass mold making, so the fiberglass construction presents no difficulty for me. Plus, for just a little bit more $$ (and some are even the same price), fiberglass construction is a no brainer. A lot of the things that are wizzing over my head are all the abbreviations and such. I am sure that with a little time as mentioned already, these things will start to make a bit more sense.

Gotcha. Yeah, the lingo can get overwhelming. Looks like you are in good shape. Good luck with your build.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

looks like recovery space will be at a premium... I would echo the advice, skip the baffle. you'll be needing a chute protector when you DD the thing...a 48" chute will be a challenge to pack down small enough to fit...build/paint it first then weigh it and consider what size chute you actually need, I used a 48" for a 10 pound rocket.
Rex

He's talking about a rocketman chute, they measure different than anyone else. You get a smaller chute for the same measurement. Haven't used them just spent too long with their website... Take a look at their decent rate chart sometime. 4 ft chute, 3lbs, 16ft/s. I think they measure over the top to the tips of the X shape...

 

[MikeyDSlagle]

Another option on building your fin can:

Epoxy your rear ring (and thrust plate if you got one) into place.
Dry fit the forward ring anywhere forward of the fins and slide the whole thing in place. You can epoxy the ring in place if you choose to. Depending on the rocket and how many rings, sometimes I do, sometimes I dont.
Tack your fins in place.
Remove the tabs behind the rear fins to extend your fin slot all the way to the end of the body tube and remove the tabs between the forward and rear fin slots. Sometimes it is easier to remove them before attaching fins, just beware of the floppy tube that will result. I usually remove mine first.
Remove the whole fin can assembly from the body tube by sliding it out the back.
Epoxy forward ring into place if you haven't already and add fillets.
Then put epoxy in your tube where the forward ring goes and on your rear ring/thrust plate assembly an slide it into place.

No reaching up in the rear end of the rocket with a q-tip or brush and making a mess. And you can see how good your fillets are. Super easy, super clean. I use this method for nearly all my rockets. You don't get a fillet inside where the fin meets body tube, but you will have a good one where fin meets motor mount and you'll have one outside on the fins. The usefulness of the second internal fillet is debatable. I am not intending to have that debate start up again in this thread, so let's not do that folks.

Mikey D

 

[RLB454]

So here is my thoughts on the nose cone av bay:
The bay body will be the nose cone coupler. I am not planning on swapping out the bay to other rockets, and not going to dual deploy this one. At this point the plan is to epoxy the bay solid to the nose cone. Or, I can use the plastic rivets just in case I do decide to remove it down the road...but not likely. The 1/4-20 all thread from the forward bulk plate will hold the tip in place, and will also hold the av bay in place alongside the rivets if I do not epoxy it. I epoxied in a centering washer at the front of the nose cone to keep the all thread straight, which will also keep the tip centered. Yes, things are not perfectly aligned in this pic, it is all just loosely fitted as a mock up. Thoughts? <- I know, that is a dangerous question, but I am a big boy.....



Ha ha, and now for something totally different.... the last "build" thread I put on any forum started as this:


And 5 years later ended up as this:



Ok, back to the subject at hand.....

 

[ChrisAttebery]

First off go read this thread:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=541643

I may have missed it but which epoxy system are you going to use? I've been using RocketPoxy for the last couple years and I've yet to have a failed joint. On a kit in this size range I like to do the double dip method on the fin to MMT joints. Then I put reasonably sized fillets on the fin to body tube joints. Unless you're flying off concrete I don't think you need big internal fillets too. This means you can just glue both centering rings in place before you glue the motor mount into the body tube.

Take a look at how CJ epoxies the Kevlar strap to the MMT for a shock cord anchor.

Take a look at CJ's Punisher build thread for the proper way to build a head end deployment bay in the nose cone coupler. You can use nylon rivets to keep the NC on the coupler if you're not flying DD right away.

Good luck with your build.