High altitude liquid rocket

[ksaves2]

Not a troll, just someone who has an ambitious idea and no idea of the actual complexity involved. You see them a lot more in other rocketry communities that young people will tend to find before TRF. I typically see them either trying to build a TVC rocket, after seeing a few BPS.space videos, or making super sketchy sugar motors after seeing the a YouTube video with absolutely horrible instructions on how to build them.

Unless there is an imminent safety risk, like with a poorly designed and built sugar motor that they intend to light with a fuse and stand 10 feet away, I generally prefer to nudge them towards NAR and Tripoli clubs. I know of several teenagers who showed up in various online rocketry communities with various terrible motors who now have Jr. L1 certs and are working on interesting projects with experienced mentors.

Weeeellll, this is the place not to post about doing a liquid propellant lox or otherwise motor aside from hybrids.

If working on liquids, keep it within the academic institution(s) one is attending with their advising Professor(s), Phd's or otherwise.
Likely there will be "patent" issues involved on some "new and improved" liquid propellant and all will be sworn to secrecy. Last I heard, they got to the epitome of propellant with LOX and liquid hydrogen. A "beech" to deal with and some folks used "stuff" with less impulse but could get by with. Was a lot safer too. Especially the solids. Kurt

 

[cls]

Unless there is an imminent safety risk, like with a poorly designed and built sugar motor that they intend to light with a fuse and stand 10 feet away, I generally prefer to nudge them towards NAR and Tripoli clubs.

I feel that is not strong enough. We are self guided community, let's keep it going. Strong words.

or else https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/22/brigham-young-university-student-rocket-fuel-dorm

 

[Neutronium95]

I feel that is not strong enough. We are self guided community, let's keep it going. Strong words.

or else https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/22/brigham-young-university-student-rocket-fuel-dorm

I do react strongly when dealing with people that are actively a hazard, usually when they're making sugar motors based off of Youtube tutorials. Unfortunately they also tend to show up with videos of sketchy motors lit with fuses, so there isn't really any room to dissuade them from dangerous activities before they actually do them.

The OP is interested in pursuing a project that is wildly beyond their means, but I haven't seen any evidence that they've acquired anything dangerous yet. I'd be singing a significantly different song if there was any indication that this was anything more than the wild dreams of a teenager at the peak of the Dunning Kruger curve.

 

[Ez2cDave]

I've seen replies like this before, however I have also seen some people answer. I mostly posted this to cover all of my bases. I am not expecting most people to answer. I would just like to hear some opinions on this forum, as I think it is one of the biggest. I have tried other forums/sites that could be helpful, though not that one. Thanks, I will try it out

Zburnt,

99.999% of us, including myself, have ZERO experience using liquid propellant. So, unless someone has actual first-hand, experience, I agree about referring interested parties to other websites and organizations, rather than posting something that might get someone injured, or worse.

Personally, for me, liquid propellant is too complex, too expensive, and too dangerous to even consider attempting.

Dave F.

 

[FredA]

Like climbing that mountain that thousands have already climbed.
Put your ice-axe dreams away and do something constructive with your time, money and effort.
Making yet-another copy-cat motor that involves extreme expense and potential personal/property damage seems so silly.
To what end - that "check mark?"

If you set on advancing the state of the art - your questions here seem way off base.

 

[CalebJ]

Like climbing that mountain that thousands have already climbed.
Put your ice-axe dreams away and do something constructive with your time, money and effort.
Making yet-another copy-cat motor that involves extreme expense and potential personal/property damage seems so silly.
To what end - that "check mark?"

Why the constant ridicule of mountain climbing?

 

[FredA]

Why the constant ridicule of mountain climbing?

Personably find it beyond silly.
Know people who are missing body parts and I've told them to their face they are nuts....and the OP brought it up as a reason to do this.....

 

[CalebJ]

Personably find it beyond silly.
Know people who are missing body parts and I've told them to their face they are nuts....and the OP brought it up as a reason to do this.....

Okay... I mean, I get that we all find different things appealing. You've just rehashed the same thing multiple times and it's a little worn out.

 

[zburnt]

If you think I'm a troll or someone who is way out of their depth, im perfectly fine if you don't post here. I'm may have wild dreams, but I'm not stupid, and safety is my first priority. I'm not planning to wake up one morning and just have a liquid motor. I am going to actually think this through before I even start working on it, and I have already made better design choices just from this forum. My current plan with this (while it might take 2+ years or more) is to make a small liquid motor using GOX and Kerosene. It won't ever fly, but it will still be a challenging project. I appreciate everyone who has given feedback so far and I hope you continue to do so.

 

[Ez2cDave]

If you think I'm a troll or someone who is way out of their depth, im perfectly fine if you don't post here. I'm may have wild dreams, but I'm not stupid, and safety is my first priority. I'm not planning to wake up one morning and just have a liquid motor. I am going to actually think this through before I even start working on it, and I have already made better design choices just from this forum. My current plan with this (while it might take 2+ years or more) is to make a small liquid motor using GOX and Kerosene. It won't ever fly, but it will still be a challenging project. I appreciate everyone who has given feedback so far and I hope you continue to do so.

Zburnt,

I do not think you are a troll, but I do believe that you have little to no experience with liquid-fueled rocket engines. That is not intended to be a "cut-down", in any way, merely a fact.

Otherwise, you would not be on a Model Rocket forum ( yes, even Level 3 HPR is "Model Rocketry" ), asking for advice in an environment where Solid Propellant is, 99%+, the only type of propulsion used ( there is some usage of Hybrid rocket motors ).

Given the complexity and danger of liquid-propellant rocket motors, getting advice from those knowledgeable with them is the wisest course of action and this forum is not the place to do so.

I wish you success with your project !

Dave F.

 

[zburnt]

Zburnt,

I do not think you are a troll, but I do believe that you have little to no experience with liquid-fueled rocket engines. That is not intended to be a "cut-down", in any way, merely a fact.

Otherwise, you would not be on a Model Rocket forum ( yes, even Level 3 HPR is "Model Rocketry" ), asking for advice in an environment where Solid Propellant is, 99%+, the only type of propulsion used ( there is some usage of Hybrid rocket motors ).

Given the complexity and danger of liquid-propellant rocket motors, getting advice from those knowledgeable with them is the wisest course of action and this forum is not the place to do so.

I wish you success with your project !

Dave F.

I 100% agree. And I have actually gotten referred to other sites. I think that that is the best way to go forward, and if anyone know any other sites than ARocket email I would appreciate this. I have looked at some stuff there, and I think the best way forward is to have as many referrals to sites that do deal with Amateur rockets.

 

[lakeroadster]

I 100% agree. And I have actually gotten referred to other sites. I think that that is the best way to go forward, and if anyone know any other sites than ARocket email I would appreciate this. I have looked at some stuff there, and I think the best way forward is to have as many referrals to sites that do deal with Amateur rockets.

What's your user name stand for?

 

[zburnt]

What's your user name stand for?

Its just a name I use for a bunch of accounts that I have. I don't even remember how I started using it (think I didn't have any ideas so I mostly copied someone else with a little modification).

 

[lakeroadster]

Its just a name I use for a bunch of accounts that I have. I don't even remember how I started using it (think I didn't have any ideas so I mostly copied someone else with a little modification).

What other sites? Like rocketry sites? Anything us model rocketry folks might be interested in?

 

[jderimig]

I wish you good luck in your endeavor. I suggest learn how to model the motor. If you are an engineering student expand your network to professors or professionals who can help you build a useful model. Get a model to work on paper before you start on the long. expensive and dangerous path to an actual prototype. And the model has to be more sophisticated than a steady-state model. You need a transient model where you can test margins.

 

[zburnt]

What other sites? Like rocketry sites? Anything us model rocketry folks might be interested in?

Games, email, old github (have a new one tho, dont' know if it is still up), discord. Mostly person stuff. Most forum sites. Lichess I think (haven't played there in a while).

 

[zburnt]

Games, email, old github (have a new one tho, dont' know if it is still up), discord. Mostly person stuff. Most forum sites. Lichess I think (haven't played there in a while).

Not really rocketry, one of the reasons I am asking for more sites for rocketry.

 

[Antares JS]

Or wait the 2 days till I read it…

An extremely relevant passage:

"And a disconcerting number of things could start [peroxide] decomposition in the first place: most of the transition metals (Fe, Cu, Ag, Co, etc.) and their compounds; many organic compounds (a splash of peroxide on a wool suit can turn the wearer into a flaming torch, suitable for decorating Nero’s gardens); ordinary dirt, of ambiguous composition, and universal provenance; OH ions. Name a substance at random, and there’s a 50-50 chance (or better) that it will catalyze peroxide decomposition."

Do not underestimate peroxide. I cringed hard when you said it "wasn't difficult/scary to work with." In the concentrations you need to be useful for rockets, yes. Yes it is. There is NO SUCH THING as a "safe" liquid oxidizer.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Not really rocketry, one of the reasons I am asking for more sites for rocketry.

Something you may find interesting . . .

http://www.cientificosaficionados.com/libros/cohetes.pdf

Dave F.

 

[zburnt]

An extremely relevant passage:

"And a disconcerting number of things could start [peroxide] decomposition in the first place: most of the transition metals (Fe, Cu, Ag, Co, etc.) and their compounds; many organic compounds (a splash of peroxide on a wool suit can turn the wearer into a flaming torch, suitable for decorating Nero’s gardens); ordinary dirt, of ambiguous composition, and universal provenance; OH ions. Name a substance at random, and there’s a 50-50 chance (or better) that it will catalyze peroxide decomposition."

Do not underestimate peroxide. I cringed hard when you said it "wasn't difficult/scary to work with." In the concentrations you need to be useful for rockets, yes. Yes it is. There is NO SUCH THING as a "safe" liquid oxidizer.

Indeed. That is why after deliberating even more (and this could change too, like the 2 other oxidizers I have chosen) I have chosen GOX, because it is reasonably cheaply available, and even though it won't fly well it is probably the safest (or one of the safest) fluid oxidizers available, and the first engines won't fly either.

 

[rocket_troy]

A GOX+liquid fuel or GOX hybrid is a perfect place to start IMHO. GOX hybrids are famous for *indoor* demonstrators. They are pretty darn safe.

TP

 

[Jmhepworth]

I don’t have the technical expertise to comment on the feasibility or safety of a liquid fueled rocket. Instead, I’ve wondered about the practical ability to launch such a thing. NAR doesn’t allow experimental motors, and TRA doesn’t allow liquids. So a launch or even a static test would have to be somewhere else. Any private or government property will require insurance, and no insurance company is likely to underwrite something like this without a demonstration that it will be safe. They just don’t take risks. And if insurance is available, it will likely be rather expensive. The OP may want to identify the launch/static test sites and understand the insurance requirements before spending a lot of money to develop something he won‘t be able to launch.

 

[Charles_McG]

I just know you guys are going to shoot down my idea of a liquid-solid hybrid using concentrated peracetic acid and pressed potassium meta-bisulfite.

But I'll show you how a cidermaker builds propulsion systems!

 

[Ez2cDave]

Reaction Research Society . . .

https://www.rrs.org

Dave F.

 

[rharshberger]

I just know you guys are going to shoot down my idea of a liquid-solid hybrid using concentrated peracetic acid and pressed potassium meta-bisulfite.

But I'll show you how a cidermaker builds propulsion systems!

Depends on whether the exhaust byproducts are delicious and have a nice kick....somehow the ingredients dont sound like they would have that effect.

 

[rocket_troy]

Depends on whether the exhaust byproducts are delicious and have a nice kick....somehow the ingredients dont sound like they would have that effect.

Certainly not to the saltpeter+sucrose benchmark

TP

 

[Charles_McG]

Depends on whether the exhaust byproducts are delicious and have a nice kick....somehow the ingredients dont sound like they would have that effect.

Well, since we're licensed as a distillery too, a 150 proof pear eau de vie / NO2 engine would probably meet that criteria.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Do not underestimate peroxide. I cringed hard when you said it "wasn't difficult/scary to work with." In the concentrations you need to be useful for rockets, yes. Yes it is. There is NO SUCH THING as a "safe" liquid oxidizer.

Highly-concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide can function as a Mono-propellant . . .

The "Vanishing Point" Rocket Car, powered by a 28,000 HP Hydrogen Peroxide, mono-propellant rocket engine . . . 1/4 mile 3.22 Seconds @ 402 mph !

Dave F.

 

[dhbarr]

Well, since we're licensed as a distillery too, a 150 proof pear eau de vie / NO2 engine would probably meet that criteria.

Now that's good for a laugh!

 

[rharshberger]

Well, since we're licensed as a distillery too, a 150 proof pear eau de vie / NO2 engine would probably meet that criteria.

at leas the fuels have interesting effects from exposure.......to the digestive and respiratory systems...drunk and laughing, RSO says your not going anywhere near the pads.