# Hello from Carber Energetics!

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##### I don't do spirals
TRF Supporter
Regarding Domain name - If you beg to get kicked in the ass, lean over to get kicked in the ass, and taunt others to kick you in the ass, you're gonna get kicked in the ass.

#### H. Craig Miller

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Not if their company isn't yet incorporated, LLC'd, and trademarked. No, it is not.
I’d recommend that you speak with an intellectual property attorney before getting too comfortable with that mindset... others have tried this sort of thing, at great expense.

#### CPUTommy

##### Thrust cures All
I’d recommend that you speak with an intellectual property attorney before getting too comfortable with that mindset... others have tried this sort of thing, at great expense.
Have to totally agree.

#### rcktnut

##### Well-Known Member
From what I have seen so far in this thread from Don/ Carber Energetics, I can answer your questions.

Isn't this vendor ALREADY PRODUCING MOTORS FOR higher end types of people?

NO - WHAT MOTORS

Hasent this guy offered what he currently is building (L,M and even O+ motors) to the sport at a discounted price?

NO- WHAT MOTORS

Did this guy hire a chemist that worked for company X to look at his motor propellant as well as how to ignight these bigger motors?

I'll TAKE HIS WORD FOR IT ON THE CHEMIST - TYPE OF INGNITION IS THE BIGGEST ISSUE IN THIS THREAD, BEEN ASKING HOW, NO ANSWER BY ILLUSTRATION OR OTHERWISE

Why the push back against THIS motor vendor that by all looks helped start High power as we currently know it ?

BECAUSE ANYONE THAT STARTED HIGH POWER AS WE KNOW IT SHOULD BE ABLE TO ANSWER ALL THE QUESTIONS ASKED SO FAR ABOUT HIS MOTORS ON THIS THREAD. HE HAS REFUSED TO DO SO.

I'd love to see the answers to these questions as to me they have already been answered.

Tom
PLEASE RE-READ ENTIRE THREAD SHOULD MY ANSWERS BE WRONG I WOULD BE VERY HAPPY TO CORRECT THEM AND DON'T BE AFRAID TO ASK ANY MORE THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE.

##### I don't do spirals
TRF Supporter
From what I have seen so far in this thread from Don/ Carber Energetics, I can answer your questions.

PLEASE RE-READ ENTIRE THREAD SHOULD MY ANSWERS BE WRONG I WOULD BE VERY HAPPY TO CORRECT THEM AND DON'T BE AFRAID TO ASK ANY MORE THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE.
How DARE you make sense.....

#### crossfire

I bet Don really likes all the attention.

#### Dustin Lobner

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Question for Don at Carber. There's been a lot of back and forth on this thread (me being a cause of some of that, I apologize)...I would prefer that Don answer this, so please stay out otherwise. I'll take the leap of imagination that the motors can get certified...I'd like to understand more of how this motor works.

I'm designing a rocket right now that will be my first attempted high power airstart. I was planning on the airstart motor to be an AT J450DM (figure if I can reliably air light a DM sparky I should be good for most other things I'm planning of). If you're planning on a 54mm K, that could apply though instead of the J450. I'm planning on using a cardboard shipping tube body with a 3D printed fincan, so I can basically design and manufacture this exactly how it needs to be. The ground started motors will be Aerotech I205s clustered around the center...the center being the 54mm airstart.

The normal situation would be a conduit of some sort down to the bottom of the rocket, so I can get ignitor leads from electronics down there.

How would I go about designing this for HEI? How does the ignitor interface with the rest of the rocket? Is it a couple of wires kinda sticking out of the top of the motor, or is there a terminal block on top, or something else? Do I run wires down the motor mount tube, attach to the motor, and then slide the motor in and allow the wires to coil up inside? Or do I have a cutout in the side of the rocket so I can slide the motor in, and then connect the leads through that cutout? Is there some way to shunt across the ignitor leads to "safe" them? I've never done this before, so attempting to understand.

I'm going to be using an Eggtimer Proton for the fight computer with a 2S LiPo battery with a total of 600mAh and a 30C current rating (so, 18 amps at 7.2V) - is that enough battery to reliably light this?

Goal is to launch at Mini-Midwest Power Halloween weekend this year. Do you anticipate having motors certified and available by then?

#### jsdemar

##### Well-Known Member
Not if their company isn't yet incorporated, LLC'd, and trademarked. No, it is not.
The violation only requires public use of the company name or trademark prior to the non-owning party registering the domain. There are other civil laws that either Don or Gary could apply to show misrepresentation and libel. Best to reverse the domain name charade as soon as possible.

#### dr wogz

##### Fly caster
started on Tuesday (Feb 23rd), and we are at 12 pages 5 days later..

This thread feels like watching either the directors cut of Apocalypse now Redux, or The Good, The Bad, The Ugly (with deleted scenes) or the entire Hobbit trilogy in one sitting..

need more popcorn..

#### llobdelljr

##### Active Member
Been interesting to read this thread, but it seems to me it's an apples vs. oranges thing. Existing companies make rocket motors for military, commercial, entertainment and who knows what else. Apparently Carber Energetics does the same. I think I read somewhere that most of the motors for those applications use HEI. Whatever those customers want is up to them. Their wishes are not relevant to us, and neither is how Carber makes motors for them. No problem. Think of those as apples.
However, now Carber wants to get into another market - that of HPR, or, if you will, oranges. Just because a product works in one market doesn't mean that will be acceptable in another. To play in the HPR market a manufacturer has to be willing to follow the NAR & TRA safety codes for motors, and HEI is a big question mark. Even RCS sells stuff for HEI but they are careful to note that those motors can only be used at TRA Research launches. The real question I see in this thread is how are these proposed motors ignited and how will they fit into the TRA HPR Safety Code. It is natural for those of us who spend \$ on this hobby to want to know, but for whatever reason, so far Carber has been unwilling on this forum to share any substantive drawings, descriptions, or patent references to answer the question. This thread has certainly put Carber on notice that the ignition question is real, but all of our flaming, guesses, discussion, etc. is useless until Carber resolves it with TRA. So thank you for the offer Carber Energetics, but I'll have to wait to see how the ignition question gets resolved with TRA.
Just for information I have been L2 for three decades and am now working on an L3 and the only time I fly LPR is with my grandkids

TRF Supporter

#### SharkWhisperer

##### Well-Known Member
The violation only requires public use of the company name or trademark prior to the non-owning party registering the domain. There are other civil laws that either Don or Gary could apply to show misrepresentation and libel. Best to reverse the domain name charade as soon as possible.

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#### SharkWhisperer

##### Well-Known Member
It's actually as easy as going to https://lookup.icann.org/lookup and putting in the website.
And if you're not a complete idiot, it's just as easy for me to purchase the domain name in YOUR name, with your contact info, and I would remain anonymous. Naive.

#### Arpak

##### Well-Known Member
And if you're not a complete idiot, it's just as easy for me to purchase the domain name in YOUR name, with your contact info, and I would remain anonymous. Naive.
Hm ok, I'd like to see you swing that past godaddy. You seem pleasant.

#### SharkWhisperer

##### Well-Known Member
Hm ok, I'd like to see you swing that past godaddy. You seem pleasant.
So you're relying on the "security" offered by GoDaddy? Oh my, you know absolutely nothing about internet commerce. I worry for you.

#### Arpak

##### Well-Known Member
So you're relying on the "security" offered by GoDaddy? Oh my, you know absolutely nothing about internet commerce. I worry for you.
I'd rather not go back and forth with someone playing high and mighty in front of their monitor. My intention was to show a way for Don to pursue regaining that domain, I'm not sure what crawled up your safety spot but I'd rather not be at the recieving end.

#### SharkWhisperer

##### Well-Known Member
I'd rather not go back and forth with someone playing high and mighty in front of their monitor. My intention was to show a way for Don to pursue regaining that domain, I'm not sure what crawled up your safety spot but I'd rather not be at the recieving end.
Aw relax a little, Arpak. I'm not advocating anything about domain names--whether the ethics of bulk-buying them (common), retaining them (easy), or arguing about their validity. I have no pony in this race. I was simply commenting that there is very, very little that the Internet Security "Police" can do about it, that GoDaddy has zero security that a prepaid visa card and a disposable email address cannot circumvent, that pursuing a libel or commerce interference argument is in this case ridiculous, and that our friend Don's marketing plan might not have been very well thought out. "You seem pleasant"? Let's not make this personal. "...crawled up my safety spot..." Same thing. But bless your little heart.

#### SharkWhisperer

##### Well-Known Member
It's actually as easy as going to https://lookup.icann.org/lookup and putting in the website.
Computers: Garbage in=Garbage out. Puters don't yet do too much critical thinking. You tell them what you want them to say, ffs... The Alexa/Siri fans...yipes. And everybody's happy to accept your online payments, even (especially--less responsibility) anonymous.

#### cwbullet

##### Obsessed with Rocketry
Staff member
Global Mod
WARNING! - Watch the foul language and insults. Failing to do so could earn some vacation time from the forum.

#### pondman

##### Serenity now......
Ah, but you can’t sell a research motor.
One slight addition to your statement Joe, from the TRA Research Safety Code:

3.2.2.4. Research Motor. Any motor made for personal use which is not a Certified Motor.
Research motors shall not be sold or distributed for a profit.

The bold underline is my edit.

#### crossfire

Question for Don at Carber. There's been a lot of back and forth on this thread (me being a cause of some of that, I apologize)...I would prefer that Don answer this, so please stay out otherwise. I'll take the leap of imagination that the motors can get certified...I'd like to understand more of how this motor works.

I'm designing a rocket right now that will be my first attempted high power airstart. I was planning on the airstart motor to be an AT J450DM (figure if I can reliably air light a DM sparky I should be good for most other things I'm planning of). If you're planning on a 54mm K, that could apply though instead of the J450. I'm planning on using a cardboard shipping tube body with a 3D printed fincan, so I can basically design and manufacture this exactly how it needs to be. The ground started motors will be Aerotech I205s clustered around the center...the center being the 54mm airstart.

The normal situation would be a conduit of some sort down to the bottom of the rocket, so I can get ignitor leads from electronics down there.

How would I go about designing this for HEI? How does the ignitor interface with the rest of the rocket? Is it a couple of wires kinda sticking out of the top of the motor, or is there a terminal block on top, or something else? Do I run wires down the motor mount tube, attach to the motor, and then slide the motor in and allow the wires to coil up inside? Or do I have a cutout in the side of the rocket so I can slide the motor in, and then connect the leads through that cutout? Is there some way to shunt across the ignitor leads to "safe" them? I've never done this before, so attempting to understand.

I'm going to be using an Eggtimer Proton for the fight computer with a 2S LiPo battery with a total of 600mAh and a 30C current rating (so, 18 amps at 7.2V) - is that enough battery to reliably light this?

Goal is to launch at Mini-Midwest Power Halloween weekend this year. Do you anticipate having motors certified and available by then?
MMWP is in May

#### Dustin Lobner

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
MMWP is in May
Oops. Planning on launch at Midwest Power then, my bad. Whichever one is in October.

#### Jmhepworth

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
One slight addition to your statement Joe, from the TRA Research Safety Code:

3.2.2.4. Research Motor. Any motor made for personal use which is not a Certified Motor.
Research motors shall not be sold or distributed for a profit.

The bold underline is my edit.
That does seem to suggest that one could sell research motors at a loss. I doubt that’s what was intended, but it seems clear. Not a very good business model, though. Sell them at a loss and make it up in volume.

#### Dustin Lobner

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
That does seem to suggest that one could sell research motors at a loss. I doubt that’s what was intended, but it seems clear. Not a very good business model, though. Sell them at a loss and make it up in volume.
I know I've seen larger projects where someone builds the airframe, someone does the avionics, someone does the motor...guessing this was put in there so that other team members could contribute to the cost of the motor but not for the motor builder to turn a profit?

#### CPUTommy

##### Thrust cures All
So you're relying on the "security" offered by GoDaddy? Oh my, you know absolutely nothing about internet commerce. I worry for you.
Go daddy is the biggest by far with more shopping carts than Anyone.

Security is huge with go daddy.. been there...done that..spoke to the devs one one one...

Ignorance IS bliss..

#### jsdemar

##### Well-Known Member
One slight addition to your statement Joe, from the TRA Research Safety Code:

3.2.2.4. Research Motor. Any motor made for personal use which is not a Certified Motor.
Research motors shall not be sold or distributed for a profit.

The bold underline is my edit.
Plus:
7.1.2. A person who makes the research motor(s) for a Tripoli Research group project may do so only if they are a member of said group, and may collect only the costs (without profit) for materials used to produce the motor(s) for use in the group project.

The motor maker must be a member of the group and can only be paid for materials costs and not labor.

#### don carter

The last time I laughed this hard was when my wife and I went to a Rodney Dangerfield comedy performance at The Palace!

#### quickburst

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Not supposed to ask questions. You're supposed to fall on your knees and worship at the feet of the new vendor hawking his vaporware.
I couldn't help but belly laugh. I thought that was very funny.

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