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CPUTommy

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And again. My ONLY complaint is that the people who will never buy his motors have soooo much to say about a new motor vendor..

I looked for the negative stuff of the awesome jolly logic and the GPS that lets us walk to our rockets and not spend HOURS looking.
I would love for this thread to be about specs, prices, assembly instructions, and test fire videos rather than safety Nazis and who is or is not afraid of their own shadows. Let’s hope it becomes that thread after a few pages of train wreck.
Yup... you have valid points
 

Jmhepworth

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And again. My ONLY complaint is that the people who will never buy his motors have soooo much to say about a new motor vendor..

I looked for the negative stuff of the awesome jolly logic and the GPS that lets us walk to our rockets and not spend HOURS looking.

Yup... you have valid points
This thread could be about specs and such, but it got derailed because Carber Energetics refuses to respond to legitimate questions about how to use their head end ignition solution and still comply with the safety codes. It’s curiosity, not negativism. Many of us would like a safe HEI motor, particularly for staging. Yet when we ask about safety, all we get is name calling and pronouncements that NFPA has no enforcement power. If the safety codes never get addressed, the ONLY [emphasis in original] people who will ever buy their motors are those who don’t rely on a Tripoli or NAR club to get a waiver.
 

CPUTommy

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This thread could be about specs and such, but it got derailed because Carber Energetics refuses to respond to legitimate questions about how to use their head end ignition solution and still comply with the safety codes. It’s curiosity, not negativism. Many of us would like a safe HEI motor, particularly for staging. Yet when we ask about safety, all we get is name calling and pronouncements that NFPA has no enforcement power. If the safety codes never get addressed, the ONLY [emphasis in original] people who will ever buy their motors are those who don’t rely on a Tripoli or NAR club to get a waiver.
The thread started by a new motor vendor who is offering a revolution in high power rocketry motors. The HEI obviously works in the applications that he used to make commercial motors whos use was by higher authorities, he comes here offering his high power motors and his HEI that WORKS.

the convo went to NFPA.. which is NOT any type of authority its a group that our sport chooses to follow for saftey measures.

When an RSO says, "guys and gals, this is what your going to do and your going to do it over here, when the RSO gives those orders that are safer than NFPA says it has to be is the RSO out of order???? The NFPA says so... where is the outrage over that?

Oh wait.. the RSO is acually making things SAFER while breaking the NFPA rules...

Why is the HEI all of a sudden an issue with an advisory board? Oh wait.. we have the EXPERTS here who launch there mini half A's and call themselves "rocket gods"

I've seen so much B.S from some of you in other threads that I just laugh at how ludicrous some of you sound.

I think I may take your approach.. im going to call Bullshit on some of the utter nonsense some speak only to sound intelligent. I CHOSE to pass by the thread with out calling you out for your incomplete knowledge of some things.

Im far from intelligent and probably have the lowest IQ here, however i have 50 years of life experience and will say what I have known to be true.

I started my own computer business in 1997, im retired now and the company is still running strong. Im responsable for multi million dollar business as well as the little old couple living in a nursing home. So I've seen and done it all. Am I an expert in computers? I'm willing to bet my $ against your $ on who is more knowledgeable. Am I the smartest computer guy out there. NO FREIKING WAY. Do I have ANY idea how to build a HP motor.. well yes I have an idea, would my motors work.. 100% no!

After 50 years of building motors, I can guarantee one thing, I'd be better at building motors than owning a computer company.

Don has experience, and builds non commercially available motors that have a HEI, he hired a chemist to make everything burn right. Ive hired professionals while owning my own business. (I hired a Cisco engineer to connect 4 car dealerships together while I was wiring a new dealership comming online.

Why do some of you feel the need to say anything negative about a new vendor who is making the motors he already produces available to us HP guys..

Maybe its time to become a fact checker and totally blast the people who make up stuff only to sound smart to others. A bunch of negative posts to follow up the lies and nonsense...maybe that will make you feel safer..

I can do this all under the guise of being "smarter" than I acually am, as well as referencing Microsoft (NFPA) as the all knowing God. How many of you have illegal versions of office, of windows, of any program you use? Should I blast you for doing something I cant do? I WOULD LOSE MY IPD STATUS AS WELL AS MY OEM CERT if I loaded a SINGLE pc without a key. So anytime someone mentions computer software is it OK for me to blast the person asking for help or advise? Trust me you don't want to go there as Microsoft is the same as the NFPA.. dont think Microsoft can fine you? Dont think Microsoft has no rules? (NFPA) Dont think Microsoft won't send you a letter where YOU HAVE TO PROVE THEY ARE IN THE WRONG? Ever try to win against them in court? Yeah...I think ill be the Microsoft police and start telling YOU what you can and can't do based upon what Microsoft "says"

All Don did was say hello and give us a heads up on what he has to offer us. The treatment by some is honestly just down right pathetic.

I pray a new low power vendor shows up.. I have no need for them so its acceptable for me to blast them and question everything to include the type of paper the engine is wrapped in.

New motor vendor comes on here and gets blasted by people who will never buy his motors, BECAUSE THEY DONT FLY HIGH POWER AND ARE AFRAID OF DUAL DELPOY!!! IM WILLING TO BET ITS BECAUSE THEY ARE EITHER TO STUPID TO FIGURE IT OUT AND DONT WANT TO BE LAUGHED AT DUE TO THERE FAILURES.

This whole thread is just SAD for rocketry as a whole.

The Dude
 
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CPUTommy

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This thread could be about specs and such, but it got derailed because Carber Energetics refuses to respond to legitimate questions about how to use their head end ignition solution and still comply with the safety codes. It’s curiosity, not negativism. Many of us would like a safe HEI motor, particularly for staging. Yet when we ask about safety, all we get is name calling and pronouncements that NFPA has no enforcement power. If the safety codes never get addressed, the ONLY [emphasis in original] people who will ever buy their motors are those who don’t rely on a Tripoli or NAR club to get a waiver.
Dons HEI is being used successfully in the motors he has and is producing now.. so because he isn't telling you HOW the HEI gets connected (possibly a new safer method) then he is doomed to be trashed..

And one last question.. does the NFPA have enforcement powers ?
 

shockie

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wasn't ACS-Reaction Labs sold to Jerry Irvine in 1998.....?

If that's true then Carber Energenics is Don Carter and Mark Webber(Weber), 2 of the co-founders of TRA back in 1985.

anyway, per the NFPA NOT being an authority. Actually they are Authority. Their Authority is backed up in nfpa regulations and enforced (sometimes) by local and state fire officials. Everybody in the USA lives in what's called a fire district; and each fire district has a local Fire Chief or Marshall. With that said: The only way you can violate the NFPA regulations is to have somebody standing there that knows the NFPA regulation that is being violated.... And if it's just a regular person and NOT a fire official it doesn't count. Regular people do not enforce or interpret the nfpa regulations. It doesn't matter what someone thinks the nfpa regulation means or don't mean or when they are being violated or not violated. That's up for fire officials to do the interpretation. SO unless you have your local fire officials onsite watching what you are doing, and hopefully knows the nfpa regulations, that's the only way a civilian can be charged with a nfpa fire code violation. The fire code official isn't going to take some civilian's word that so and so violated a specific nfpa regulation, without seeing it with his own eyes.

Reminds me of a conversation I once had with the Indiana state fire marshall.....he basically said NFPA 1122/1127 were unenforceable and therefore he would not enforce them.

Tripoli regulations do not TRUMP( heheh I said Trump) NFPA regulations, although in one instance the NAR seems to think so. Hopefully the TRA won't go down that road. But BOTH the NAR and Tripoli are required to enforce NFPA regulations under their watch. That's because both the NAR and TRA are Authorities Having Jurisdiction when it comes to enforcing NFPA regulations. SO eventually imho, Carter Energenics is going to have to take this to the Tripoli Board Of Directors and let them decide if it violates NFPA regulations and is allowable on Tripoli ranges .

nfpa 1125 is completely different. This refers to the design and construction of the rocket manufacturing plant itself. The local, state and federal governments ALL get involved at this point to make sure the plant is safe. Just having an BATFE Manufacturing license isn't enough.

if you want to read 1122/1127/1125 online FREE goto https://www.nfpa.org, register and create a free access login, and then you can read all 3 online for free.

As far as TRA and NAR Safety Codes are concerned. You can think of them as guidelines and rules for its membership. They don't superced the NFPA regulations. The model rocket safety code is included in the annex of NFPA 112 just as the High Power Safety Code is included in an annex in 1127. But the NFPA points out they are there for informational purposes only., i.e. the NFPA doesn't require or endorse them.
 
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Steve Shannon

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The thread started by a new motor vendor who is offering a revolution in high power rocketry motors. The HEI obviously works in the applications that he used to make commercial motors whos use was by higher authorities, he comes here offering his high power motors and his HEI that WORKS.

the convo went to NFPA.. which is NOT any type of authority its a group that our sport chooses to follow for saftey measures.

When an RSO says, "guys and gals, this is what your going to do and your going to do it over here, when the RSO gives those orders that are safer than NFPA says it has to be is the RSO out of order???? The NFPA says so... where is the outrage over that?

Oh wait.. the RSO is acually making things SAFER while breaking the NFPA rules...

Why is the HEI all of a sudden an issue with an advisory board? Oh wait.. we have the EXPERTS here who launch there mini half A's and call themselves "rocket gods"

I've seen so much B.S from some of you in other threads that I just laugh at how ludicrous some of you sound.

I think I may take your approach.. im going to call Bullshit on some of the utter nonsense some speak only to sound intelligent. I CHOSE to pass by the thread with out calling you out for your incomplete knowledge of some things.

Im far from intelligent and probably have the lowest IQ here, however i have 50 years of life experience and will say what I have known to be true.

I started my own computer business in 1997, im retired now and the company is still running strong. Im responsable for multi million dollar business as well as the little old couple living in a nursing home. So I've seen and done it all. Am I an expert in computers? I'm willing to bet my $ against your $ on who is more knowledgeable. Am I the smartest computer guy out there. NO FREIKING WAY. Do I have ANY idea how to build a HP motor.. well yes I have an idea, would my motors work.. 100% no!

After 50 years of building motors, I can guarantee one thing, I'd be better at building motors than owning a computer company.

Don has experience, and builds non commercially available motors that have a HEI, he hired a chemist to make everything burn right. Ive hired professionals while owning my own business. (I hired a Cisco engineer to connect 4 car dealerships together while I was wiring a new dealership comming online.

Why do some of you feel the need to say anything negative about a new vendor who is making the motors he already produces available to us HP guys..

Maybe its time to become a fact checker and totally blast the people who make up stuff only to sound smart to others. A bunch of negative posts to follow up the lies and nonsense...maybe that will make you feel safer..

I can do this all under the guise of being "smarter" than I acually am, as well as referencing Microsoft (NFPA) as the all knowing God. How many of you have illegal versions of office, of windows, of any program you use? Should I blast you for doing something I cant do? I WOULD LOSE MY IPD STATUS AS WELL AS MY OEM CERT if I loaded a SINGLE pc without a key. So anytime someone mentions computer software is it OK for me to blast the person asking for help or advise? Trust me you don't want to go there as Microsoft is the same as the NFPA.. dont think Microsoft can fine you? Dont think Microsoft has no rules? (NFPA) Dont think Microsoft won't send you a letter where YOU HAVE TO PROVE THEY ARE IN THE WRONG? Ever try to win against them in court? Yeah...I think ill be the Microsoft police and start telling YOU what you can and can't do based upon what Microsoft "says"

All Don did was say hello and give us a heads up on what he has to offer us. The treatment by some is honestly just down right pathetic.

I pray a new low power vendor shows up.. I have no need for them so its acceptable for me to blast them and question everything to include the type of paper the engine is wrapped in.

New motor vendor comes on here and gets blasted by people who will never buy his motors, BECAUSE THEY DONT FLY HIGH POWER AND ARE AFRAID OF DUAL DELPOY!!! IM WILLING TO BET ITS BECAUSE THEY ARE EITHER TO STUPID TO FIGURE IT OUT AND DONT WANT TO BE LAUGHED AT DUE TO THERE FAILURES.

This whole thread is just SAD for rocketry as a whole.

The Dude
Personally, I welcome any company that can bring to market safe rocket motors that follow the rules we have written at a price that leads to more participation at all levels.
However, for me, the several comments which reflect such a complete lack of understanding of the role of NFPA as an organization, the history of NFPA 1122, 1125, and 1127 sample codes, and the continued importance of the adopted versions of those codes to our ability to obtain insurance, launch sites, and COAs, lead me to believe that Carber Energetics is just entering the steep uphill portion of the learning curve. I wish the company luck on that climb.
 
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jsdemar

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And one last question.. does the NFPA have enforcement powers ?
NFPA publishes best practices codes which are written by committees made up of industry experts, company representatives, and government representatives. This is done for a wide range of applications and services. They are only publishers.

A State or locality adopts those published codes into regulations by referring to specific codes, sometimes with exemptions. It's also common to refer to other published codes (such as the IBC, International Build code, or IFC, International Fire Code), which include the NFPA codes.

The State or local regulations are law and include terms for prosecution and fines. NFPA 1122/1125/1127 (model,manufacture,HPR) codes are adopted as law directly or indirectly in virtually all of the USA.
Tallied here: https://www.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/Master-I-Code-Adoption-Chart-Sept-2020.pdf
 

jderimig

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nfpa 1125 is completely different. This refers to the design and construction of the rocket manufacturing plant itself. The local, state and federal governments ALL get involved at this point to make sure the plant is safe. Just having an BATFE Manufacturing license isn't enough.
Is a garage good enough to satisfy this?
 

crossfire

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I think this post needs to be ended. A new motor company made an announcement of a possible new motor manufacturer and people just go crazy and try to tear the post apart. Lot of people today just love to be negative on any subject. Let's give them a chance to get up and running than the product will talk for it self.
 

PayLoad

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I think this post needs to be ended. A new motor company made an announcement of a possible new motor manufacturer and people just go crazy and try to tear the post apart. Lot of people today just love to be negative on any subject. Let's give them a chance to get up and running than the product will talk for it self.
I have no dog in this fight - I'm a businessman, and I guess I would be considered successful, whatever that means (I pay the bills & put kids thru College and still have $$ left over for my hobby)so I guess that counts. I make no comments derogatory towards Don (CPU Tommy is a bit over the top, but no harm, no foul)

The fact is that nothing has been shown, nothing has been answered, nothing but only an idea has been presented, and an idea is not a business. THAT is the concern. I've not seen a thing on this thread but un-answered questions - which is not a good BUSINESS practice.

One picture of a motor, one video of a static, 90% of the naysayers would go away. It is just. That. Simple.
 
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Jmhepworth

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Whether the NFPA has enforcement power or not isn‘t relevant. Complying with the Tripoli and NAR Safety Codes is. If we don’t comply, insurance won’t cover us. My club will never let someone launch in violation of the Safety Codes. It’s great that a new vendor has a tested HEI system. But if using it doesn’t comply with the Safety Codes, it doesn’t matter for the vast majority of us. If they’ve figured it out, tell us how we can use the motors and comply. It may be that we have to use an away final assembly area. If that’s the answer, please just say so. Or if you have some other plan, say so. Really, we’re not trying to be negative. We want a new motor. But a new motor we can’t use isn’t really a new motor.
 

CPUTommy

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Isn't this vendor ALREADY PRODUCING MOTORS FOR higher end types of people ?

Hasent this guy offered what he currently is building (L,M and even O+ motors) to the sport at a discounted price?

Did this guy hire a chemist that worked for company X to look at his motor propellant as well as how to ignight these bigger motors?

Why the push back against THIS motor vendor that by all looks helped start High power as we currently know it ?

I'd love to see the answers to these questions as to me they have already been answered.

Tom
 

CPUTommy

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Oh and for the record..

1-ive never spoken to Don
2-Ive never messaged him
3-i never heard of him until this thread.

All my comments are my opinion and they obviously come from a high power guy who just LOVES the sport.

Sorry if I offended "you" in any way.. its a how I throw my communication that comes off the wrong way 99% of the time unless your one of the 1% of the people who know me.

With love AND kisses.

Tom
 

cbrarick

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Tom:

Take a deep breath. Step away from your keyboard and consider this:

Multiple questions have been legitimately asked.
No answer has been forthcoming.
All we get is personal attacks, stating no one who asks questions ever flies HP. That's false. Look up the people who are asking the questions, see what they post in "featured flights" of your regional launches.

Many of us have asked about the NFPA standards. They are important because we need to follow them in order to get and maintain our insurance (even echo'ed by Tripoli Board members.)

Perhaps they will chill, forget about built-in igniters as non-approvable.
Then perhaps a lot of people would be interested.
A fourth motor manufacture would be nice. I can remember a time when we had 5. Choices are good. I'm willing to bet that most of the people asking the questions would agree.

Of course, there's the matter of their bad PR.......
 

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I don’t think anyone is afraid of cheaper certified motors becoming available. But what if they end up not being certified? What if they are sold anyway? A lot of people have worked very hard at great expense over the years to allow the hobby to operate as it does. It won’t take much to undo that and so far there are more facts here pointing to a problem than a successful company. The fear is we may end up with fewer motor options if the thought that “NFPA is unenforceable” prevails...
 

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This thread is chugging along splendidly. The announcements backed with CPU's charm and charisma have generated interest. You can feel the enthusiasm in the air!

It's time to strike while the iron is hot. Get some capital flowing in to grease the wheels of the innovative new company (that's not really new because he's been doing this for 30 years... or something... I lost track and honestly sorta stopped reading some of the longer posts).

Launch a presale! Start with the $130 L already mentioned and add in the others that have come up. This would allow you to gauge interest and confidence in the ability of Carber to get it done.
 
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PayLoad

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This thread is chugging along splendidly. The announcements backed with CPU's charm and charisma have generated some interest. You can feel the enthusiasm in the air!

It's time to strike while the iron is hot. Get some capital flowing in to grease the wheels of the innovative new company (that's not really new because he's been doing this for 30 years... or something... I lost track and honestly sorta stopped reading some of the longer posts).

Launch a presale! Start with the $130 L already mentioned and add in the others that have come up. This would allow you to gauge interest and confidence in the ability of Carber to get it done.
Without certification? Shirley you jest......
 

PayLoad

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I'm all in - Publicly - to purchase 4 of each motor made, and to keep 4 of each motor in stock. At wholesale, for resale
 
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