Has anyone swing tested an Estes Wizard with C6-5?

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Fritzk

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Hello folks.

Slight predicament with an old Wizard I built 30 years ago but never flew.

Recently I've been trying to get my girlfriends son into Model rocketry. (Still waiting for a good flying day here in the Northeast). Naturally we swing tested our rockets. My Bullpup 12D swung out fine, as did his Supernova (both single and double stages). Then the other week I remembered I had an old wizard that I assembled but never finished, hiding in the closet. I went ahead and rehab it so we would have something else to fire off, in case something went awry with the other two. Replaced the shock cord, re-glued brittle fin joints, etc. Then I went to swing test it with the heavier engine, (Worst case scenario and all).

And it stabilized perfectly.. backwards!.. repeatedly..

I did a check by working up a file for open rocket, and weight and CG are spot on between simulation and prototype. I understand swing tests aren't the be-all end-all, but did find it curious if anyone else has seen this with theirs?

Admittedly, I haven't tried with the lighter A or B motors. But since we will likely be making a 40 min trip to NH where a friend has a nice open 800 x 1400 ft field to play with (especially for the Supernova), it would be nice to go Max without hurting anyone. Hoping not to have to add weight to the nose that has been sealed shut since my college days.

Thanks in advance for any info on this weirdness..

Fritz K.
 

boatgeek

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I haven't swing-tested it, but I've flight tested a Wizard with a C6. The biggest issue I had with them was breaking off fins on landing and/or not being able to find it again. A C will really put it up there.
 

BEC

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What does OpenRocket say for stability margin?

As I understand it a model that swing-tests backward like that (but doesn't tumble) will be OK.

I've also seen Wizards flown on C6s (and sometimes recovered :eek: )
 

Rex R

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some times an otherwise stable rocket will do that due to a high angle of attack induced by the string being too short. if open rocket says it should be okay, then I would feel okay about flying it
Rex
 

dcastle

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I haven't swing-tested it, but I've flight tested a Wizard with a C6. The biggest issue I had with them was breaking off fins on landing and/or not being able to find it again. A C will really put it up there.
You should try it on a D21 :) with fins appropriately reinforced, of course. It's been a few years but I recall that Rocksim had the G load as something ridiculous and that it was in the transonic range very quickly. I put a metallic streamer in it and caught a glint of it in the sky some 3,000 or so feet above us but that was about it...
 

viney266

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I have flown one on a C6 a few times (We used the kit Alot in 4H, so we had leftovers). Just make sure it's a BIG field.
 

adrian

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As I understand it a model that swing-tests backward like that (but doesn't tumble) will be OK.
If you put the fins near the nose, the model will swing-test backwards. It will probably not be stable in flight. :D

So I would not trust a model which swing-tests backwards unless its stability is proven by some other source. Simulation by Rocksim or OpenRocket would be good. Statements by people who have actually flown the same model on the same motor are even better.
 

Fritzk

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Thanks for the responses!
Bernard : Open Rocket says 1.9 Caliburs at Mach 0.3, and as I mentioned the cg matches almost exact.

SO for now I'm going to hope it's correct. I may do a lower power test at a local field with an A8 just to see what happens. I'm hoping Rex is correct, and it's due to a shortcoming of the swing test itself (like those detailed in apogee newsletter 53). I just got a little curious as I know there's a ton of wizards out there without ballast in the nose.

Fritz K.
 

Buzzard

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A model that swing tests stable, but backwards is okay. I would recommend a C6-7 motor vs a C6-5. The extra delay will allow the model to slow down more prior to ejection. And very young eyes to track it. These 67 (and a half) year old eyes won't do...

Chas
 

Fritzk

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Thanks Chas and Ryan! It reflects what the simulation was saying.

I have to order up some C6-7 for the supernova, I'll add a second pack for the wizard while I'm at it :)

Fritz K.
 

boatgeek

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Thanks Chas and Ryan! It reflects what the simulation was saying.

I have to order up some C6-7 for the supernova, I'll add a second pack for the wizard while I'm at it :)

Fritz K.
You'll only need one or two unless you have a really big field and really good eyes. ;) It is super-easy to lose track of the Wizard at C6 altitudes.
 

BEC

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...though as Ryan (flyfalcons) has proven at our field, you CAN get them back when flown on C6-7s. :D
 

Fritzk

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You'll only need one or two unless you have a really big field and really good eyes. ;) It is super-easy to lose track of the Wizard at C6 altitudes.
700ft x 1300ft field, and the wiz is painted hi-viz orange.. Hoping to get a very calm day. ;)
 

Fritzk

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You should try it on a D21 :) with fins appropriately reinforced, of course. It's been a few years but I recall that Rocksim had the G load as something ridiculous and that it was in the transonic range very quickly. I put a metallic streamer in it and caught a glint of it in the sky some 3,000 or so feet above us but that was about it...
Dan,
A question about the D21. Can it be started by a booster stage like an Estes motor can? or does it have any weirdness going on with the nozzle or propellant that would prevent that?

I Just ask, because with a little modification, and structural work, I think I might have to buy another wizard, and try this...
machwizard.jpg
 

Rex R

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the D21 uses APCP, while it might light an Estes bp motor there will be a minimum 3 second delay between events, a bp motor will not work to light the D21, in short you would need an onboard electric ignition system, sorry.
Rex
 
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