# Hardware dilema

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#### astrowolf67

##### Well-Known Member
Okay, I'm finally ready to purchase some HPR hardware (since I did certify in February). Now that I've had my surgury, and gone back to work, working extra days to build the rocket budget back up. I know I will be getting the Dr. Rocket 29/180-240 set. My dilema is with 38mm. Should I get the Dr. Rocket 38mm set, which gives a broad selection of H and I's, and wait for AT motors to come out a few at a time. Or, should I get a Pro 38 case, which I can only aquire one motor for (Smokey Sams require a LEUP), but is readily available? What would you guys choose?

#### Loki

##### Well-Known Member
Wait a couple of weeks for the Loki Research motors to be TRA certified. They've been submitted for testing and it won't be long now. Great prices and great performance! Check Loki Research for details.

#### shockwaveriderz

##### Well-Known Member
didn't I read someplace, like maybe ROL, that CTI was going to come out with 38mm/54mm reloads for AT vcases? Or maybe I am just imagining this...... I wonder if the Loki reloads will fit in AT cases...? Ohh by the way Jeff, great work ......

#### BlueNinja

##### Well-Known Member
They might... I know they have aerotech grain style loads, so I wouldn't be too suprised if they did.

#### shockwaveriderz

##### Well-Known Member
david: good question and heres my analysis:

To purchase all 6 Pro38 Cases, allowing for G-H loads is approx. $225..... this would allow up to a 765 NS J motor..... All 6 of the Dr.Rocket 38-240/360/480/600/720/1080 cases would cost more than$425 this would allow up to a 1060 NS J motor...

With the Pro 38, you have only the standard propellant ...that may change in the near future.....as CTI and AMW have some form of marketing(?) or production(?) agreement so maybe the colored smokes and flames will turn up in CTI Pro 38 motor cases.
This is pure speculation on my part.........

With the RMS, you have must more variety in terms of both propellant formulations(smoke and flame colors) and propellant grain sizes....

I know that smoke and flame coloring is a selling point to some people, so you will have to decide how important that feature set is....

So the major plus for the Pro38 line is its in a sense much less expensive than the full 38mm Dr. Rocket RMS line, but you also are paying for a more limited set of potential reloads..... But the question is do you want or will you even need the entire set of 6 38mm AT/RMS cases?

Another major plus for the Pro38 is availability, although by this time next year, I would assume that AT/RMS will be back in full blown production so that will not be as big a plus.....

So those are some of the pluses and minuses for both....

One big plus or minus is how the ATF will consider AT reloads versus CTI reloads..... The argument can be made that the CTI reloads are fully preassembled PADS and thereby are exempt from the need of a LEUP.....AT/RMS reloads have to be assembled prior to use, so they may not be determined the same as PADS.... Of course nobody knows hows that will wash out in the end...]

hope this helps some

#### Justin Horne

##### Well-Known Member
Well, that last post pretty much summed it up, so ill just throw in my opinion. I like the Aerotech cases just because you are not limited to pretty much 1 motor a case. I also lie the fact that the actuall reloads are cheaper then ProXX cases.. That's pretty much it.

#### Johnnie

##### Well-Known Member
PRO38 H is nearly $25-$30 is it not? What about the Aerotech H128, I believe it is still in the $20 range. The way I see it, is if you go PRO38, you will pay more in the long run as you fly more, as their reloads are very costly. With Aerotech having somewhat cheaper reloads, you fly more to break even, then the savings will kick in...both mfg's will even out eventually. Either way, the motors must be flown a lot, and after a while, who cares. so lets see the real decisions here: Blue Thunder / Whitelightning / BlackJack / Redline <-------oh yeah! or... Standard propellant. (maybe a future Dirty Harry load, Smokey Sam ...what ever) I don't fly single use motors because they are too expensive, and PRO38's are single use motors and a$20 tube with a logo on it. Besides, putting a reload together ROCKS!

...of course there is always the Hybrids...I just bought the complete SRS motor system in 38mm, for $203...The J reload alone is only about$15 ea. With these 3 cases, I can fly (2) H's, (3) I's and (1) J.

Speacial effects??? Well no, with the PVC I should get some smoke as well as a little tracking smoke, and with the PloyPro, I'll get mach diamonds and whiplash

ah decisions decisions...

I will fly my SRS hybrids at Saturdays launch in Manchester.

#### RocketboyG80

##### Well-Known Member
Johnnie I think you may have meant the 240N-s AeroTech H motors are in the $20 dollar range. The 180N-s loads are in the$12 range. This is according to the prices I'm seeing from the dealers with the lowest prices like Commonwealth and Great Lakes. The AeroTech 240N-s H loads are the most comparable to the Cesaroni H's I think.

#### blacksky

##### New Member
I am partisan regarding the Pro38 because I had something to do with their creation, but here goes.

1. The Pro38 reloads do cost a few dollars more, but, with the adjustable delay, one need only have the Pro38 DAT to get the full range of delays (a total of 5 delays) rather than using multiple delay kits to get just 3 delays.

2. Assembling the Pro38 motor is essentially foolproof. Take it out of the shipping package, remove the Delay Assembly, set the Delay with the DAT, re-install the Delay Assembly, screw the reload into the tube and you are DONE! No grease, no o-rings, no spacers, no parts to loose.

3. The Pro38 comes with an igniter pellet installed in the head end of the motor and an electric match. The ignition reliability is high 9's and really reduces the anxiety of first launches and clustering.

4. Cleaning the Pro38 motor requires you to unscrew the expended reload and throw it into the trash. You may want to wipe off the outside of the case with a paper towel.

5. The Smokey Sam (black smoke) reloads are available and acutally provide higher thrust than the standard propellant.

#### cls

##### Well-Known Member
I have a set of 18/24/29 AT motors, 29mm & 38mm Dr Rocket stuff, and a couple 54mm 2-grain CTI motors.

If you are clustering or airstarting, no choice, go for CTI. they always start instantly, no complaining, no chuffing, no igniter trouble. as blacksky noted above the motor delay is adjustable and reliable - AT delays are notoriously bad for adjustability & reliability!

AT is cheaper per load and more flexible. You can fly H128s - awesome motor - all day long for $13 a load. compare that with$12 for G64 (excellent motor too!) and $15 for F50 SU and$18 for G40 & G80 SUs.

Price for (38mm/720) AT J350 or J420 is about $45, vs. (54mm) CTI J280 reload at$62.

Astrowolf, for your situation, you probably ought to start with a 29/180-240 case & ends. If you want to fly H97s get a 29/360 case.

Soon I bet you will add a 38/360 case & ends. I don't use my 38/240 case much - H123s at $20 vs H128 for$13? I use a LOC motor adapter. I don't have a 38/600 case, I think having one would give some flexibility in selecting reloads. You don't need a 38/720 unless you want to fly J350s & J420s. (evil grin goes here)

#### astrowolf67

##### Well-Known Member
After all the replies, pro's and con's, and lots of debating last night, I solved my problem. In transit, is the Dr Rocket 29/180-240 system, the Dr Rocket 38/240-480 system, a Pro 38 3 grain case, and a Pro DAT tool

Thanks everyone for the input.

Jeff, I'll keep an eye on your motors! More choices are great!

#### Justin Horne

##### Well-Known Member
Well, that's one way to do it! Good job, sounds like youll be happy.

#### firemanup

##### Well-Known Member
Nice choices Astro..

I started out with the both of those Dr. Rocket systems and have since added 600 and 720ns cases to the mix.. and have a large variety of great realoads to fly..

Watch the online vendors and check them weekly, they are all getting motors in and they come in cycles.. they do still sell out a little quickly but with the flying season winding down for some I think that will disappear some..

I've had no problems all season filling my casings..

#### aksarben10

##### Well-Known Member
I agree with alot of what has been said already. AT is a bit cheaper but harder to use and CTI is easy to use and clean but costs a bit more.

For me I found that the +'s and -'s of the two systems evened themselves out and the real decision came down to, what can I get. And at the time I started flying HPR CTI was the only real option. The vendors that come to our field are Giant Leap and Fly Fast both always have plenty of CTI motors. Recently they have started to have some AT, AMW and Ellis motors in stock more often. I like to buy at the field for several reasons, 1) it encourages the vendors to come to the field and 2) I hate hazmat fees.

So my advice would be go with what you can get. Also don't just limit your self to CTI and AT, remember Ellis and Loki as well. I will be looking closely at the Loki Line, I like them because I can use these cases for double duty, Loki reloads and EX reloads - I cannot do that with my Pro38's.

Scott

#### Loki

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by shockwaveriderz
.... I wonder if the Loki reloads will fit in AT cases...? Ohh by the way Jeff, great work ......

The Loki 38mm and 54mm reloads will not fit AT style cases. I'm still toying with several 29mm designs, some are compatible with AT style cases, some are not.

The Loki 38mm motors will be priced as follows:

Hardware:

38-240 motor $49.99 38-480 motor$54.99
38-740 motor $69.99 Introductory three motor package$129.99 (three cases, three nozzles, one bulkhead).

H144 $17.99 for the 38-240 I305$29.99 for the 38-480
J528 $39.99 for the 38-740 All of the above reloads are the Loki White propellant (white flame, white smoke). Loki will be releasing reloads in several other formulations in the coming year. "Loki loads" come with adjustable delay times, from 5 to 17 seconds. We thought the CTI Pro-DAT tool was great, so we designed our motors to use the same tool! You can buy a Loki-DAT from us, or you can use a Pro-DAT if you already have one (the only difference between the Pro-DAT and the Loki-DAT is the label). One big difference with our 38mm H and I reloads is that they have been approved for shipment via the USPS with no hazmat charge (not the J, sorry). No other vendor offers "mailable" 38mm motors. Combine this with our already low prices and you'll save real money. Even if you only buy on site from a dealer, the dealers did not have to pay the hazmat so they should be able to pass along the savings. I'm going to start a "pre-certification" sale soon (probably this week). I'll will post the details to the Loki Web site when I have them ready. Basically it will be, order motors now for shipment when the TRA certifications are completed and get a discount. The motors have been submitted to TMT, and as soon as TMT chairman Paul Holmes gets back from a business trip he will fire them, the certifications should be issued by the first week in September. You can preview the reload assembly instructions here. #### lalligood ##### Well-Known Member Jeff, I think I nearly wet my pants from hearing all of the wonderful things (particularly the part about inexpensive reloads & user-adjustable delay!) that Loki has in store for us Something tells me that I am going to be having a lot of experiences with Loki in the near future!! Best of luck to you #### gregzo ##### Well-Known Member That's very exciting news Jeff!!!! Make sure you post your sale here as well as your website. You seem to be doing everything right so far. If your product holds up to all the hype you just listed - I think you will do very, very well selling your goods. I'll jump in and buy some product. Good Luck #### Hospital_Rocket ##### Well-Known Member Jeff Will you have the .eng files for these available? Can I drive to Milford and do a pickiup? A #### Bill ##### Well-Known Member Originally posted by Loki "Loki loads" come with adjustable delay times, from 5 to 17 seconds. We thought the CTI Pro-DAT tool was great, so we designed our motors to use the same tool! You can buy a Loki-DAT from us, or you can use a Pro-DAT if you already have one (the only difference between the Pro-DAT and the Loki-DAT is the label). Most excellent! If only we can convince AT to incorporate the same feature into their product line...fewer SKUs to manufacture and for everyone up and down the distribution chain to keep track of. Bill #### gregzo ##### Well-Known Member Hey Loki.... I see you have updated your website - THAT"S GREAT!!! It will be wonderful to have more motor options and yours seems like it will be really good with all the features you described. I am very much looking forward to getting some. Where is the$129.99 hardware deal on the three motor set you advertised? I am very interested in that introductory package price you offered. I do not see this on your website??

Your site says you can only ship via FedEx with \$20 hazmat - you advertised that the H & I reloads would be able to go via USPS without the fee????

Thanks and good luck with the final TMT certification.

#### n3tjm

##### Papa Elf
Originally posted by cls
If you want to fly H97s get a 29/360 case.
H97 is for the 29/240 case

Originally posted by Johnnierkt

Aerotech also makes the 29/360 full "I" known as the I200...not sure what the Redline load is for that 29/360 case.
The I200 is a baby I.... basicly a C motor more than a full H.
Currently the 29/360 case has two loads, the I200W, and H268R. Both are awesome loads.

#### Johnnie

##### Well-Known Member
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Johnnierkt

Aerotech also makes the 29/360 full "I" known as the I200...not sure what the Redline load is for that 29/360 case.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The I200 is a baby I.... basicly a C motor more than a full H.
Currently the 29/360 case has two loads, the I200W, and H268R. Both are awesome loads.

BAM, POW, Johnnierkt takes another on the chin for posting false information...

Still, the I200 is the BADDEST "BABY" I motor for such a small package!