GUNS & ROCKETS

the rocketry show
SilicdyneTRF
madcow rocketry
rocket sok
The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
teepot said:
I have a 10.5" AR with a light/laser and night sights. I took the red dot off because it would take time to turn on.
Click to expand...
On a defensive weapon (home or carry) equipped with a red dot one should leave the red dot on at all times. The battery is rated for 50,000 hours in the medium setting.
 
teepot said:
I have heard the comment many many times that racking a round into the chamber of a shot gun will end a fight before it has started. But, your home defense gun should already have a round in the chamber. You wrack a round into the shotgun or charge your AR and you have just told the bad guy where you are and that your armed. If the bad guys break into your home while you are there they are armed and not afraid of you. Take your loaded weapon and your cell phone to a place of cover. Dial 911 and ambush the SOB when you see them. Cover is something that will stop bullets. Not to be confused with concealment. Which is just hiding. Think about this. It's 3am and you are awakened by your front door being kicked. You think what was that at about the same time the door breaks. You now have 10 or 15 seconds to respond. The bad guys, and there will be more than one, spread out through the house looking for the occupants and subduing them. Now they have time . Unless your house is alarmed. Police response to a home alarm is not fast because of all the false alarms. { In Vegas the police stopped responding to home alarms years ago.} So they now have 10 or 15 minutes to get what they came for. Things could get ugly. I have a 10.5" AR with a light/laser and night sights. I took the red dot off because it would take time to turn on. I know exactly what I would do if the front door gets kicked in. Roll off the bed and grab the AR. Stay on the floor behind the bed and greet the Zombie when I see it. There is a revolver in a kitchen drawer, one each in two of the bathrooms, a gun in the living room, in the bedrooms and the arsenal in the garage. There are pistols stashed in different places in the garage. While there isn't many, there are people that know I build AR's and have a lot of guns. The wrong word in the wrong ear and I might have a problem. That is why I take the precautions I do. Oh, and one more thing, I practice and so should all you good guys.
Click to expand...
Not disagreeing with your methods and reasons, but are your guns in secured drawers (locked, whether electronic or manual)? Due to the fact we have kids ages 7, 11, 13 in the house and all have been taught how to handle firearms, unsecured weapons scattered around the house is not an option. Yes my home defense weapons are loaded at all times, first up is my Sig 556P similar in size and function to your AR SBR, second up is the wifes .40 S&W Springfield XD compact, my .45 ACP M&P Shield EDC, and then the 12 gauge (its not a tactical so its harder to handle in the house. In our home baddies would have to go up the stairs, and as soon as they set foot on the property I get an alert that someone is there. All exterior doors are secured (reinforced deadbolts and frames) and exterior first floor windows are not easily accessible. Top of the stairs would be my chosen position as that location limit access to the bedrooms (none on first floor). As for Dot sights or lasers, we always have light sources providing light to the interior of the house, I have night sights on the guns but no electronics to fail. The Sig 556P does have a Surefire Tactical Light but as I was trained it has limited use and can be a negative if not used correctly.
 
Semi auto and pump shotguns can hold a lot of shells. My kid has a Benelli that holds 13 3" shells. All you need to do is put an extended magazine tube on it.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
I’ve heard the same thing, that shootouts are chaotic and confusing, and that leads to a lot of misses. From what I understand, that’s pretty typical, but what I don’t understand is why that leads to the idea that a shotgun is recommended for home defense. From what I have heard, and from my own experience with shooting my shotgun only a few times, you really do have to aim it to hit anything. It’s not like a shotgun increases your chances of hitting a target by that much at home defense ranges, especially with home defense ammunition that doesn’t spread out that much. From what I’ve heard, the main reason for picking a shotgun is that it can end an encounter with one hit. You hit something with a 12 gauge, it’s done.

But I’m definitely no expert on the subject at all. One of the questions I’ve been asking myself is which type of gun makes the most sense for home defense.

I have my shotgun, which is pretty formidable. It’s not hard to operate, but you do need to rack a new round in manually between shots. It would be deafeningly loud indoors. Recoil is substantial. And it’s got 5 rounds, and then it needs to be reloaded. In the chaotic situation you described, I’m wondering if the noise, recoil, and need to pump in a new round would add to the confusion.

The other gun I’m considering for now is a semi-automatic 9mm carbine. The rounds are not as devastating as 12 gauge, but probably still lethal. On the plus side, the recoil is supposed to be very light. It’s not so loud. It has 10 rounds (in CA), and they are fed semi-automatically as fast as you can pull the trigger.

I’m starting to think the carbine might make more sense just because it might be easier to operate under pressure. But I’m definitely open to feedback on that.
Click to expand...
One thing that I have seen with regards to shotguns, and I’m not entirely sure how correct this is, is that handling a shotgun is not so much aiming as it is pointing. I suppose that would depend on what kind of range we’re talking about here and what kind of choke you have installed on the barrel, if any.

Shotguns are also very versatile, being able to fire a variety of less-lethal ammunition that won’t over-penetrate. Bean bag rounds and such. I have no idea if that kind of thing is legal for civilians in California or if you’d consider a round designed primarily for incapacitation to be useful, but it may be worth looking into.

On the other hand, if you feel the legitimate need to shoot a jerkface in your home, there isn’t much room for mercy and not much sense to self-imposing limits on the stopping power available to you. I should know, I’ve been on the receiving end of more than one attempted murder.

About the only bit of sense I see is limiting injuries to your housemates from over-penetration, but the same objective can be achieved by placing yourself in the best position possible, knowing who and what is beyond your target, and controlling your fire based on that.

I wouldn’t be too concerned about noise. This won’t be a regular thing you subject your ears to, and you want to get out of this situation with the good guys alive and the bad guys dead, incapacitated long enough to be arrested, or fleeing for their lives.

As always, it’s up to you to determine what information is most accurate, relevant, and important to you. I’m hoping this is helpful but I’m also ready to for somebody to blast a hole in this post, as it were.
 
A 12 gauge with lead shot at 10 yds (30 feet, based on a choke spread chart with a cylinder choke generally from a 24-28" barrel length) will be approx 19" in diameter, at 5yds (a realistic home defense range) it will be about half that or 9.5" or less 1" per yard is commonly accepted asxwell. For comparison a .45 caliber bullet is well .452-ish inches (depending ammo) and will be exactly that same diameter at point blank all the way to impact If a zombie target is 2 feet wide then the can only hit inside that 2' circle, a shotgun on the other hand can miss the target zone by less than 9.5" at 5 yds and still hit the the zombie, maybe not enough to stop said zombie...but its still an injury.
Shotguns are indeed "pointing" weapons hence the reason they do not normally have fancy precision sights, pistols and rifles are aimed weapons hence the reason they are fitted with precision sighting systems, though pointing goes a long way towards getting them on target.
 
Last edited:
teepot said:
I have heard the comment many many times that racking a round into the chamber of a shot gun will end a fight before it has started. But, your home defense gun should already have a round in the chamber. You wrack a round into the shotgun or charge your AR and you have just told the bad guy where you are and that your armed. If the bad guys break into your home while you are there they are armed and not afraid of you. Take your loaded weapon and your cell phone to a place of cover. Dial 911 and ambush the SOB when you see them. Cover is something that will stop bullets. Not to be confused with concealment. Which is just hiding. Think about this. It's 3am and you are awakened by your front door being kicked. You think what was that at about the same time the door breaks. You now have 10 or 15 seconds to respond. The bad guys, and there will be more than one, spread out through the house looking for the occupants and subduing them. Now they have time . Unless your house is alarmed. Police response to a home alarm is not fast because of all the false alarms. { In Vegas the police stopped responding to home alarms years ago.} So they now have 10 or 15 minutes to get what they came for. Things could get ugly. I have a 10.5" AR with a light/laser and night sights. I took the red dot off because it would take time to turn on. I know exactly what I would do if the front door gets kicked in. Roll off the bed and grab the AR. Stay on the floor behind the bed and greet the Zombie when I see it. There is a revolver in a kitchen drawer, one each in two of the bathrooms, a gun in the living room, in the bedrooms and the arsenal in the garage. There are pistols stashed in different places in the garage. While there isn't many, there are people that know I build AR's and have a lot of guns. The wrong word in the wrong ear and I might have a problem. That is why I take the precautions I do. Oh, and one more thing, I practice and so should all you good guys.
Click to expand...
The laser is as bad as racking sound to give your position away. Sure, when you're not delerious with rage or drugs, that shotgun slide will catch your attention. But I wouldn't count on the "intimidation factor" for folks that are determined or out of their minds. It's a time waster and a giveaway. There are tons of reasonably priced red-dots that "shake-awake" at the slightest movement, turn off after so long in disuse, with batteries that last months if not years. A flashlight is imperative, because you never want to shoot something you cannot see clearly. But a laser is worthless but looks cool in the movies. Besides IR lasers for your (expensive and heavy) night vision optics, when have you ever seen military/LE with lasers on their weapons (visible)? I'm guessing never. I'd upgrade your optics back to a shake-awake red-dot, double-check your flashlight, and put the laser on a pellet gun for amusement. Lasers are a lotta fun and look really cool, but they're really not good for much except giving your position away. And I hope that your revolvers in the kitchen, bathroom (2) and your firearm in the living room, and your garage (easily breached while you're sleeping?) arsenal are sufficiently hidden so it takes an extra maneuver beyond opening a drawer to locate your weapons, so they don't get used against you. You might not have the luxury of time to barricade behind your bed and await your guests. Round in the chamber, safety on, and practiced.
 
smstachwick said:
One thing that I have seen with regards to shotguns, and I’m not entirely sure how correct this is, is that handling a shotgun is not so much aiming as it is pointing. I suppose that would depend on what kind of range we’re talking about here and what kind of choke you have installed on the barrel, if any.

Shotguns are also very versatile, being able to fire a variety of less-lethal ammunition that won’t over-penetrate. Bean bag rounds and such. I have no idea if that kind of thing is legal for civilians in California or if you’d consider a round designed primarily for incapacitation to be useful, but it may be worth looking into.

On the other hand, if you feel the legitimate need to shoot a jerkface in your home, there isn’t much room for mercy and not much sense to self-imposing limits on the stopping power available to you. I should know, I’ve been on the receiving end of more than one attempted murder.

About the only bit of sense I see is limiting injuries to your housemates from over-penetration, but the same objective can be achieved by placing yourself in the best position possible, knowing who and what is beyond your target, and controlling your fire based on that.

I wouldn’t be too concerned about noise. This won’t be a regular thing you subject your ears to, and you want to get out of this situation with the good guys alive and the bad guys dead, incapacitated long enough to be arrested, or fleeing for their lives.

As always, it’s up to you to determine what information is most accurate, relevant, and important to you. I’m hoping this is helpful but I’m also ready to for somebody to blast a hole in this post, as it were.
Click to expand...
At closer distances shot spread is very contained--with adrenaline up you risk missing as with any other gun. You may get lucky with "general" aiming, or you might just find yourself out of rounds quickly and in a bad scenario. Nobody's shooting bean bag rounds at intruders; might as well hand out cotton candy. Interesting you've "been on the receiving end of more than one attempted murder". wth???
Overpenetration depends on your gun and, most importantly, your ammo. A 9mm 115 grain FMJ will penetrate more walls than a .223 softpoint or frangible, in general terms. A .223 M885 penetrator round will go through more than a 9mm JHP. 12g 00 will go through a lot, too. There are frangible rounds for most common calibers if needed, that break apart at the first sheet of drywall (or thorax) they meet. There are also shortened lower-powder/power 12g rounds available, though some guns have difficulty chambering/extracting. Right on noise, mostly. An AR indoors is unpleasant to say the least. The hearing you sort out later. Supressors can reduce hearing loss concerns, but is the expense of purchasing and getting your tax stamp/approval worth it for the average joe? Dunno. The AR platform converted to .300 Blackout rounds, especially subsonic, are manstoppers with less hearing issues. Your muzzle "compensator" on a budget AR? Yeah, that'll deafen you. Not an immediate concern if there are intruders in your house.
 
SharkWhisperer said:
At closer distances shot spread is very contained--with adrenaline up you risk missing as with any other gun.
Click to expand...

Adrenaline is bad for accuracy. I used to shoot competitive IPSC and ICORE and my accuracy always went down in competition. I took it too very seriously. Then the year I shot the Steel Challenge for fun I was the fastest stock wheelgunner in Oz. It's a real thing. Freak out and you can't hit the ground with a handful of chaff.

Also shooting without muffs, as in an intruder situation, is a whole new ballgame. Not sure if adrenaline raises your auditory pain threshold. Maybe...
 
Sooner Boomer said:
....and tracers work both ways...

Not if you have a cat. The laser doesn't even need to be on a gun. My cat is a laser-guided attack missile.
Click to expand...
We have a dog bell....anyone gets close to the doors and it goes off, not much for attack though...give her a treat and you own her for about 2 minutes.
 
SharkWhisperer said:
Nobody's shooting bean bag rounds at intruders; might as well hand out cotton candy. Interesting you've "been on the receiving end of more than one attempted murder". wth???
Click to expand...
Long stories, I’ve lived with more than my share of loonies. I’ll elaborate more if you’re interested, I just didn’t want to post a wall of text without warning.

But I’m also the kind of guy who would rather be (or be seen as) foolish than heartless. The things I think about in the entirely hypothetical question of what shotgun ammo I’d choose reflects that. Others may choose differently, and it sounds like they often do. More power to them, literally,
 
rharshberger said:
Not disagreeing with your methods and reasons, but are your guns in secured drawers (locked, whether electronic or manual)? Due to the fact we have kids ages 7, 11, 13 in the house and all have been taught how to handle firearms, unsecured weapons scattered around the house is not an option. Yes my home defense weapons are loaded at all times, first up is my Sig 556P similar in size and function to your AR SBR, second up is the wifes .40 S&W Springfield XD compact, my .45 ACP M&P Shield EDC, and then the 12 gauge (its not a tactical so its harder to handle in the house. In our home baddies would have to go up the stairs, and as soon as they set foot on the property I get an alert that someone is there. All exterior doors are secured (reinforced deadbolts and frames) and exterior first floor windows are not easily accessible. Top of the stairs would be my chosen position as that location limit access to the bedrooms (none on first floor). As for Dot sights or lasers, we always have light sources providing light to the interior of the house, I have night sights on the guns but no electronics to fail. The Sig 556P does have a Surefire Tactical Light but as I was trained it has limited use and can be a negative if not used correctly.
Click to expand...
No kids in the house. If a drawer is opened the gun is not visible. I have a large safe in the garage. The garage has two alarms. Window and motion. I also reinforced the dead bolts and door frames.
 
teepot said:
No kids in the house. If a drawer is opened the gun is not visible. I have a large safe in the garage. The garage has two alarms. Window and motion. I also reinforced the dead bolts and door frames.
Click to expand...
I figured that was the case, that and Pahrump seems to be where a lot of people "retire" to, we had one of our local gun/black powder dealers retire to Pahrump iirc, been about 4-5 years ago, he moved from WA.
 
SharkWhisperer said:
The laser is as bad as racking sound to give your position away. Sure, when you're not delerious with rage or drugs, that shotgun slide will catch your attention. But I wouldn't count on the "intimidation factor" for folks that are determined or out of their minds. It's a time waster and a giveaway. There are tons of reasonably priced red-dots that "shake-awake" at the slightest movement, turn off after so long in disuse, with batteries that last months if not years. A flashlight is imperative, because you never want to shoot something you cannot see clearly. But a laser is worthless but looks cool in the movies. Besides IR lasers for your (expensive and heavy) night vision optics, when have you ever seen military/LE with lasers on their weapons (visible)? I'm guessing never. I'd upgrade your optics back to a shake-awake red-dot, double-check your flashlight, and put the laser on a pellet gun for amusement. Lasers are a lotta fun and look really cool, but they're really not good for much except giving your position away. And I hope that your revolvers in the kitchen, bathroom (2) and your firearm in the living room, and your garage (easily breached while you're sleeping?) arsenal are sufficiently hidden so it takes an extra maneuver beyond opening a drawer to locate your weapons, so they don't get used against you. You might not have the luxury of time to barricade behind your bed and await your guests. Round in the chamber, safety on, and practiced.
Click to expand...
The laser has a pressure switch. It would only be used if the Zombie was in front of me. It wouldn't be on all the time. Your right that it could give your location away if it was on all the time. The light and laser are one unit similar to what the military uses. All the stashed guns are not visible to a quick look. I have looked at red dots that turn on by motion. I'm just not ready to spend $300 { Holosun } on another red dot.
 
rharshberger said:
I figured that was the case, that and Pahrump seems to be where a lot of people "retire" to, we had one of our local gun/black powder dealers retire to Pahrump iirc, been about 4-5 years ago, he moved from WA.
Click to expand...
Pahrump is mostly retiaries. A lot of them are either military or Test Site retiaries. A lot of people moving here. A lot of snow birds too.
 
Primary Arms SLX RS-10 checks out. Nice and easy to zero at 15 yards, no issues, no complaints thus far. My G19 has less than 500 rounds down the pipe, so need more range time on this rig for longer term opinion on the optic.
 
Might I interrupt this thread for some help? This is my wife's dad, 82nd Airborne, Korea, 1951-53 time frame. I don't think that's an M1, maybe an M14, or did the airborne guys carry something else? If anyone can ID, I'd be grateful. I'll be back when I can finally convince my wife to get her concealed carry permit! She is the very picture of gun ambivalence, never handled one before, so she wants one but is scared of it at the same time! I even have an instructor lined up! Ok, I'll stop derailing my own post...
KD_US_Army_Korea_1951-52 _007.jpg
 
The bayonet lug under the barrel is a dead giveaway. The original M1 carbines had no facility for a bayonet, these were added as the popularity of the firearm grew and it was issued to more troops. By Korea the carbine was quite popular with soldiers of all types as it was light and easy to handle. Paratroops were among the first to receive carbines during WW2. That's a great picture of the Korean war era, thanks for sharing.

Jim
 
Jim Hinton said:
The bayonet lug under the barrel is a dead giveaway. The original M1 carbines had no facility for a bayonet, these were added as the popularity of the firearm grew and it was issued to more troops. By Korea the carbine was quite popular with soldiers of all types as it was light and easy to handle. Paratroops were among the first to receive carbines during WW2. That's a great picture of the Korean war era, thanks for sharing.

Jim
Click to expand...
You're welcome, and thanks to all for the verification. 50 years ago, I carried a dummy version (real, but no firing pin) in parade as an AFJROTC cadet. And in college a couple of years later, I trained with an M14. But hanged if I could remember the details that closely!

My father-in-law signed up Jan 11, 1951, less than a month after he turned 17. My brother-in-law says "What kind of living hell was your life when jumping out of an airplane into combat looks like a move up?" And to be sure, he had a troubled home life, so we can appreciate his dark humor!
 

Similar threads

S
Adam Laakmann's Rocket Facts LinkedIn posts #1 - #10
Replies
8
Views
932
John Kemker
John Kemker
boatgeek
Fafnir, a 3" Dragon-Themed Rocket
Replies
4
Views
190
boatgeek
boatgeek
W
WOW! Large and Dangerous Rocket Ships by Mark Canepa
Replies
9
Views
1K
wonderboy
W
tjkopena
Fancy Rockets @ NYPOWER 2023
Replies
9
Views
770
Raythain
R
Flare
L2 Lessons Learned
Replies
10
Views
1K
Zman1961
Zman1961

Latest posts

Back
Top