# GUNS & ROCKETS

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#### Steve Shannon

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
My reason for buying Blazer ammo in the first place was twofold:
1. It was priced lower than everything else, and
2. My conscience wouldn’t bother me if I didn’t pick up my brass.

Unfortunately, the Blazer aluminum didn’t have enough impulse to reliably operate the roller locked HK94. It works fine in the MPX though. Fortunately, I bought some Privi Partizan for $145/1000. I just wish I bought 10,000. #### DRAGON64 ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter I found yet another rabbit hole to go down... Cowboy Action Shooting! How and why is the rabbit hole, but I ended up at my first match this past weekend, as a visitor only. I attended a monthly shoot for the North Alabama Regulators and had the most fun I have ever had as a non-participant. But I learned a lot and made a number of connections. The event started with the Pledge of Allegiance and a prayer... The match site was set up like an old west town... And the weapons are just old west bad-assedness I do not have any firearms or leather just yet, but I do have an alias and an SASS membership... By alias, every shooter has to have an old west alias, just like "Billy The Kid" etc. I am Maricopa John! #### jd2cylman ##### Still not Carl... ;-) TRF Supporter I found yet another rabbit hole to go down... Cowboy Action Shooting! How and why is the rabbit hole, but I ended up at my first match this past weekend, as a visitor only. I attended a monthly shoot for the North Alabama Regulators and had the most fun I have ever had as a non-participant. But I learned a lot and made a number of connections. The event started with the Pledge of Allegiance and a prayer... The match site was set up like an old west town... And the weapons are just old west bad-assedness I do not have any firearms or leather just yet, but I do have an alias and an SASS membership... By alias, every shooter has to have an old west alias, just like "Billy The Kid" etc. I am Maricopa John! Our neighbor hosts cowboy mounted shooting contest shows. Two six guns shooting 12 balloons in a pattern on a horse timed event. Fun to watch. All contestants must be in full cowboy/cowgirl dress. Talk about an expensive hobby... Horses are bad enough, but then add a pair of six shooters, outfits, ammunition (blanks, but still), and truck & trailer plus fuel to get to events. Someone was telling me they had over$1000.00 in custom tooled holsters.
But it did look like a fun time.

#### manixFan

##### Not a rocket scientist
Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) is really a lifestyle for a lot of folks that get into it. There is a whole community of folks that make clothes and other gear, and many end up making their own costumes. I bought a really nice holster and belt rig to use as a prop when photographing Colt SAAs from a company that makes them for CAS shooters and it was nearly \$300. And that was 'unfinished', meaning I had to antique it myself to get the look I wanted. Then there are the guns themselves. For regular CAS you need three - a side by side shotgun (or an early design pump action), a lever action rifle, and a single action revolver. Many reload their own ammo to get the right loads for competition.

Since you have to dress up and act in character, it really draws out a lot of interesting folks. Often entire families get involved and attend, all in period garb and with names to match. It is definitely not for the faint of wallet if you really get into it. But it can be a lot of fun to watch and to interact with the participants and their families.

And then there are those who use black powder, which is a rabbit hole in a rabbit hole.

Tony

#### rfjustin

##### Well-Known Member
I'd love to see a CAS match, looks like great fun! Not my cup of tea to get into, but looks like a great way to kill a day or two as a spectator!

#### rfjustin

##### Well-Known Member
6 or 7 dudes, lots of polymer, glass, and steel in pic below.... 1000+ yards on private property... Great time...

#### FredA

##### Well-Known Member
Wow - people actually do shoot beyond 300yards. Nice

#### Michael L

##### Random Pixel Generator
TRF Supporter
All the time

I didn't know there was a gun section (makes sense)

.338 Edge at the 300 yd range. .338 Edge is a .300 Ultramag necked up to .338. Defensive Edge (Shawn Carlock for anyone that knows long range hunting) built this one. It's kind of a .338 Lapua. It shoots very sub-minute groups. That's my old .30-30 Winchester in the foreground. My dad bought it used in his 20's. He'd be in in his 90's if he were alive today. I took it to remind myself how bad I am with open sites.

Speaking of very sub-minute groups

100 yards. That's a 1/2" square (.22 LR target)

300 yard testing of the .338 Edge.

How not to dial the scope for 700 yards. I was so disappointed in myself for botching this. It was an easy 700 yard shot and I forgot to account for the down angle.

.20 Beggs (pea shooter). Modeled after the Edge. Both rifles have a Bat action and Hart barrel. Same Nightforce NXS scope as well

100 yard test target that Shawn sends with his builds. Back when I bought the rifle I was hung up on heavier Berger bullets so I never got this kind of accuracy. When he sent the powder / bullet / charge combo for the .338 I followed it and got the same results that he did. I'll get back on load developing for the .20 one day.

Ladder testing the pea shooter at 200 yards. I picked Group B for the rest of the loads. Either of them would work. I don't remember if I shot it at 300 to pick between these 3

This is a ladder test of my Remington 700 TAC in .223. I bought the .20 Beggs to replace it. It didn't No photos of the rifle unfortunately

Found a crappy shot of the 700 TAC (foreground). That's a 10 year old kid shooting my .338. Its a very easy shooter. Too easy. See that nearly empty blue box just under the rifle? It holds 50. It was full when we got there.

TRF Supporter

#### Dotini

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
What do guns, rockets and racing cars all have in common? Loud noises and stinking smoke!

I know, because I've done all of these activities off and on my whole life.

#### judo

##### Well-Known Member
I have an idea to go to an Appleseed shoot one day.

#### Banzai88

##### Lvl 1,Wallet....Destroyed
TRF Supporter
6 or 7 dudes, lots of polymer, glass, and steel in pic below.... 1000+ yards on private property... Great time...
View attachment 460353
Surprised to see so many sticks and not a single can.

Once you start shooting suppressed, everything else is barbaric!

#### rfjustin

##### Well-Known Member
Surprised to see so many sticks and not a single can.

Once you start shooting suppressed, everything else is barbaric!
Land was in IL... case closed....

#### Michael L

##### Random Pixel Generator
TRF Supporter
Cans and 1000+ yards don't mix well

#### FredA

##### Well-Known Member
Cans and 1000+ yards don't mix well
You would be surprised....

What size targets are you hitting at 1000yds?
What are your first-hit rates on those target?

#### dhbarr

##### Amateur Professional
You all should go to a benchrest match sometime.

#### Michael L

##### Random Pixel Generator
TRF Supporter
You would be surprised....

What size targets are you hitting at 1000yds?
What are your first-hit rates on those target?
No, not for legit subsonic rounds I wouldn't. I've drilled many a primer pocket and loaded quite a few subsonic rounds for my son-in-law (he has a night, day, helo, or dogs hog hunting business). My .338 has more energy at 1000 yards than a .308 subsonic round does at 100 yards. The bullet is not stable for very long.

On the other hand, I've seen more than a few people hit a fairly small target with a pistol, .45ACP and 9mm, at 300 yards with pretty impressive consistency once they were on. I also watched a guy hit the "Buffalo" 10" plate at 800 yards) at a black powder range with bone stock AR-15, no scope. Once he was on he could make consistent, repetitive hits very quickly. I wouldn't want him shooting at me.

#### FredA

##### Well-Known Member
You all should go to a benchrest match sometime.
I've made the final at EBR - but that's airguns.
I do intend to hit the "King of the Mile" or one of those competitions once travel resumes.

I know there's a lot of talk about long range shooting.
But not seen much evidence that people actually do it much outside of those competing.

#### Michael L

##### Random Pixel Generator
TRF Supporter
I shoot 800+ when I can. I'm currently working in NW NM but I don't have my rifle, etc here (etc as in reloading bench. My bullets don't come in a box). There's a lot of BLM land here and a lot of mile+ space. I'm hoping to do some shooting while I'm here. I'll grab the .338 when I'm home next. There's a lot of space here but also a lot of wind... the 338 with a 300gr SMK doesn't mind the wind as much as the smaller bore rifles do.

#### Banzai88

##### Lvl 1,Wallet....Destroyed
TRF Supporter
Cans and 1000+ yards don't mix well
Not true by any stretch of the imagination. Cans are, by no means, meant for subsonic shots only.

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#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
Not true by any stretch of the imagination. Cans are, by no means, meant for subsonic shots only.
However, suppressors do have a measurable effect on accuracy, and much of it is dependent on the quality of the can, andcthe load for the rifle. 1000yd shots are doable with suppressors.

#### Michael L

##### Random Pixel Generator
TRF Supporter
Personally, I don't care for using a can on a rifle and using standard loads. It's hard on the internals of some cans. It's still noisy so what's the point? My son-in-law shoots full power loads through his cans all the time on his hog and coyote hunts.
Note the word "personally" at the start of the sentence. I don't care what other people do as long as it's not pointed at me.

1,000 yard shots are doable with open sites... it's doable with no sites... How repeatable is it? Are you just slinging lead or trying to land the projectile inside of a small, sub moa, circle consistently?

If you're shooting subsonic rounds through a can at 1000 yards the effect is measurable and significant. It's not rocket science it's physics. Actually... it kind of is rocket science...

.308, 200 gr Lapua subsonic bullet, Trail Boss Powder (hard to come by these days, or so I'm told), . Primer hole bored 9/64" These days most people say that opening up the primer flash hole is not necessary. That suits me fine. It's a pita to put a case in a collet chuck, bore it, take the case out, rinse, repeat and it makes the case "special".

My subsonic loads average 1,025 fps. Supersonic, at seal level. is 1,100 fps. 1,000 yards, 80 degrees F, sea level, 100 yard zero

Bullet impact relative to LOS
-1,888.1" / -157' / -180.1 MOA / 720 clicks (sounds like a lot but it's only 3 degrees)
Zero mph wind. Windage
41.1 inches right
3.9 MOA
16 clicks
Velocity at impact: 755 fps. Still useful but at somewhere between 200 and 300 yards the bullet starts to tumble. Bye bye accuracy
Time of Flight: 3.451s Lots of time for a little gust, dragonfly, etc to affect the flight
Energy at impact: 253 fpe (foot pounds of energy) 100fpe is considered the minimum to inflict a wound

.308 with 168gr bullet (Berger, SMK, whatever). I don't recall the powder and primer used. Its' a hunting load

Bullet impact relative to LOS
-414.02" / -34.5'' / -39.5 MOA / 158 clicks
Zero mph wind. Windage
11.1 inches right
1.1 MOA
4 clicks
Velocity at impact:1,123 fps. That'll leave a mark...
Time of flight: 1.766s
Energy at impact: 472 fpe (foot pounds of energy)

A .338 300gr SMK or Berger at 1000 yards drops 25 moa (about 12'), hits at 1,763 fps, 2071 fpe and takes 1.347s to arrive.

I will say this in favor of cans and using a "normal" bullet - a few years ago Shawn Carlock showed his .338 Edge with a can that he made on it. He wasn't and didn't sell them. He said that he could shoot the rifle without hearing protection and accuracy was still decent.

#### teepot

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I have a YHM 30 cal can and it's rated for full auto. I usually use full power loads. It quiets the muzzle blast but you still hear the crack as it goes down range. I also use it on an AR. When I've shot subsonic rounds thru it you hear the hammer fall and a poof. My .22 cans I almost always shoot subsonic I have a Gemtech and a Spikes.

#### John Kemker

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Useless Trivia:

The 'silencer,' more accurately known as the suppressor, was invented by Hiram Percy Maxim, the founder of the American Radio Relay League (ARRL), the Amateur Radio society for the United States. He did it so he could shoot on his property without unduly disturbing his neighbors. The same design elements also became the automobile muffler...

dah-dah-di-di-dit di-di-dit-dah-dah

PS: His dad invented the Maxim machine gun.

50 BMG APIT...

#### MClark

##### Well-Known Member
I shot a Trapdoor Springfield with black powder loads at 1200 yards.
The range marks on original sites are close with the standard load at 1350, barely supersonic. Standing offhand with no support we could hold about a 8 foot group. Sounds like a terrible group but try it.
And the 405 grain lead bullet really will go through a railroad tie at a 1000 yards!

#### Michael L

##### Random Pixel Generator
TRF Supporter
I shot a Trapdoor Springfield with black powder loads at 1200 yards.
The range marks on original sites are close with the standard load at 1350, barely supersonic. Standing offhand with no support we could hold about a 8 foot group. Sounds like a terrible group but try it.
And the 405 grain lead bullet really will go through a railroad tie at a 1000 yards!
Handheld... none for me thanks. It doesn't take much "wiggle" to get outside of that 8' box

#### rfjustin

##### Well-Known Member
I shot a Trapdoor Springfield with black powder loads at 1200 yards.
The range marks on original sites are close with the standard load at 1350, barely supersonic. Standing offhand with no support we could hold about a 8 foot group. Sounds like a terrible group but try it.
And the 405 grain lead bullet really will go through a railroad tie at a 1000 yards!
8 foot group at for that style weapon at 1200 yards ain't bad at all!

#### MClark

##### Well-Known Member
Over about 300 yards the Trapdoor was used for volley fire. With a good range estimate a dozen guns fired at once is very likely to be able to hit a man sized target at 1000.

#### FredA

##### Well-Known Member
8 foot group at for that style weapon at 1200 yards ain't bad at all!
Hmm.....most of my precision shooter friends are talking quarter-MOA or better.
One MOA at 1000yards is 10 inches.

At our range - we are targeting 1-sqft steels all the way to 1600yards.
Hitting those on the first shot is the goal.

But we're not trying that off-hand nor with BP loads.....