# GUNS & ROCKETS

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#### MikeyDSlagle

##### Well-Known Member
Heres the problem with a weapon mounted light...unless its so bright as to be painful it just gives me an aiming point, aim center of the light and most likely hit the target behind the light. Many years ago when I was taught urban combat we were trained to use a flashlight (usually a large Maglight) in our off hand and to hold it to the side a bit from our body, while it was bright enough to be "blinding" it was not bright enough to stop someone shooting at it, if it was to the side of you they have a good possibility of a miss, if it was part of the weapon or just under it then the shot has a much better chance of hitting. Personally I dont use a light on my home defense gun, I carry a small flashlight (Surefire, can remember the model, its pushing 20years old) for use if I need it, instead I would turn on the overhead light if switch is easily reached and light is needed, then the light source doesn't give me away, most home these days have enough ambient light sources in them that shooting in the "dark" is still doable, if with a pistol night sighs make it easier, and with a shotgun point and shoot.

Shotguns are GENERALLY a better choice for home defense guns as they have a lot of leeway built in due to the pattern size (a 12 gauge can pattern a 15-20' between 3" and 4.5") so a near miss with a 12gauge #4 buck shot round may still put half its balls on target doing some damage, a single bullet from say a 9mm is a miss no matter what. Another point in favor of shotguns is ease of use most short barrel home defense guns are very maneuvreable, and CQB adapted ones even more so, a single day at the range can render every member of the family proficient in the operation of the shotgun as its "point and shoot" not "aim and shoot", of course much more training is required for either a pistol or shotgun so that the individual learns target recogition, situational awareness, and thought needs to go into the organization of the home. For example in my home all the bedrooms are on the second floor, anyone breaking into the house has to come up the stairs to get to the family, my sons room is has a common wall with the stairwell for that reason his bed is on the opposite side of the room from the common wall since if I am forced to engage a target in the stair well there is much less worry about pentrating the wall and hitting him on the other side (my preferred home defense load is Winchester #4 buck shot from a Rem 870 SuperMag with an 18.5" barrel). As stated shotgun as well most other weapons including pistols need both hands to operate, though a semi auto can be operated single handed until it comes time for reloads, clearing a jamb, etc. IMO just about any shotgun load except slugs are a valid home defense choice since nowhere inside my home is the range going to exceed 10 yards, most, if any shots will be taken at under 5 yards.

These are my personal opinions on home defense choices.

In my home defense safe I have a S&W M&P Shield .45ACP, a Springfield XD compact .40 S&W, a Sig Sauer 556P with brace, and a Rem 870 SuperMag configured for home defense (its also one of my hunting shotguns with a barrel change).
I agree with all of this, well almost. But especially the weapon light. Only good thing I can say about a weapon mounted light would be for last moment target identification, but I'm not advocating for them at all, for the very reason you mention: giving the intruder a target. My only weapon with a light is my 10/22 Diller Killer. Bet you can't guess what it's used for.

I wasn't wanting to start the home defense debate either. Shotgun vs pistol vs revolver vs whatever. I was only putting out some info for folks to consider.

The most agreeable part of your post is that there isn't a Glock mentioned!!

My deterrents are a LCR loaded with +P, XDE45, and a Steyr M40. My Benelli Nova isn't far away but it's a duck gun and not exactly nimble.

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
Rich,
If you want to divest yourself of that SIG 556, let me know. I’m still kicking myself for selling an FN FNC, and the 556 was a reasonable alternative.
I will keep you in mind if I do Steve.

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
I agree with all of this, well almost. But especially the weapon light. Only good thing I can say about a weapon mounted light would be for last moment target identification, but I'm not advocating for them at all, for the very reason you mention: giving the intruder a target. My only weapon with a light is my 10/22 Diller Killer. Bet you can't guess what it's used for.

I wasn't wanting to start the home defense debate either. Shotgun vs pistol vs revolver vs whatever. I was only putting out some info for folks to consider.

The most agreeable part of your post is that there isn't a Glock mentioned!!

My deterrents are a LCR loaded with +P, XDE45, and a Steyr M40. My Benelli Nova isn't far away but it's a duck gun and not exactly nimble.
No GLOCKS in my house anymore I have owned quite a few but never liked any of them enough to keep them.

#### MikeyDSlagle

##### Well-Known Member
No GLOCKS in my house anymore I have owned quite a few but never liked any of them enough to keep them.
When I turned 21 I caught the poly-gun bug. I went to a gunshow with the intent to buy me a Glock. I picked up a couple. I simply could not understand what the rave was about, still can't. Boxy, ungainly, bulky....ugly. I had recently read about the Steyr and as luck would have it they had one. Less than $500 and one of the best feeling pistols I have held to this day. I don't shoot it much anymore though. One reason is I can't hit with it anymore. I can hit what I need to hit but I'm not accurate enough for say beer cans at 20 paces. My hold has changed or I bonked the sights too hard or something. Another reason is it ejects the empty right back into the operators face. I have had them hit my glasses, a friend has had hot brass go down his bibs. From a 10 round mag I will be hit in the head or face at least 4 times. I have it at the ready if I need it but it's range days are done until I get the ejection issue resolved, and I have only recently gotten serious about it. It was 20 years before I bought another poly-gun. Recently I did pick up a Glock. I bumped it off of it's display box and picked it up to put it back. I was horrified and immediately went to wash my hands. LOL Luckily nobody I know was looking. #### rharshberger ##### Well-Known Member When I turned 21 I caught the poly-gun bug. I went to a gunshow with the intent to buy me a Glock. I picked up a couple. I simply could not understand what the rave was about, still can't. Boxy, ungainly, bulky....ugly. I had recently read about the Steyr and as luck would have it they had one. Less than$500 and one of the best feeling pistols I have held to this day. I don't shoot it much anymore though. One reason is I can't hit with it anymore. I can hit what I need to hit but I'm not accurate enough for say beer cans at 20 paces. My hold has changed or I bonked the sights too hard or something. Another reason is it ejects the empty right back into the operators face. I have had them hit my glasses, a friend has had hot brass go down his bibs. From a 10 round mag I will be hit in the head or face at least 4 times. I have it at the ready if I need it but it's range days are done until I get the ejection issue resolved, and I have only recently gotten serious about it. It was 20 years before I bought another poly-gun. Recently I did pick up a Glock. I bumped it off of it's display box and picked it up to put it back. I was horrified and immediately went to wash my hands. LOL Luckily nobody I know was looking.
I also feel the same way about Apple Computers and Iphones....

#### MikeyDSlagle

##### Well-Known Member
I also feel the same way about Apple Computers and Iphones....
Sounds like we should get along fine.

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
Sounds like we should get along fine.
Guns and Rockets we should be okay!

#### o1d_dude

##### 'I battle gravity'
I have several G-locks in both 9 and 45.

I figure that when the boogaloo starts and I need parts, there will be plenty to cannibalize from.

My 45 has extra barrels, and complete parts kits. Previous LE owner saw to that.

A G-lock is like a lawn mower. Doesn’t need much care and pretty much always works. Do miss the safety, tho.

#### tpw2000

##### Member
As an avid 3 gun competitor, and general firearm competitor of 12 years, I can definitively say a pistol-variant-AR platform gun is the best mix of capacity, recoil, and power to stop any level of threat. Robbers wearing soft body armor or cheap plates? Like a hot knife through butter. Unarmored targets? Makes jelly of their abdominal cavity. 223/5.56 is a great option but my home defense poison is supersonic 300BLK with 110gr Barnes projectiles in an 8” AR with a KAK brace- runs like a champ, doesn’t generate much recoil, is somewhat quieter than a handgun (much quieter than a shotgun or short 223) and is almost equally maneuverable to a handgun, with more stopping power thanks to velocity. I can definitively say most people can shoot a rifle or large pattern pistol much faster than a handgun lacking a brace- hence why nearly no military uses full-auto handguns (MP7 does not count as they are outfitted with a PDW stock) but rifles are commonly full-auto. Shotguns simply lack capacity to be substantially useful in a looting-defense situation, and 90% of shotguns don’t accept box magazines which means either expensive shell staging equipment and lots of reload training or fumbling with loose shells- no, I would prefer to just drop a magazine and shove 45 rounds back in (40rd PMAG with +5 TTI baseplate)

#### rfjustin

##### Well-Known Member
As an avid 3 gun competitor, and general firearm competitor of 12 years, I can definitively say a pistol-variant-AR platform gun is the best mix of capacity, recoil, and power to stop any level of threat. Robbers wearing soft body armor or cheap plates? Like a hot knife through butter. Unarmored targets? Makes jelly of their abdominal cavity. 223/5.56 is a great option but my home defense poison is supersonic 300BLK with 110gr Barnes projectiles in an 8” AR with a KAK brace- runs like a champ, doesn’t generate much recoil, is somewhat quieter than a handgun (much quieter than a shotgun or short 223) and is almost equally maneuverable to a handgun, with more stopping power thanks to velocity. I can definitively say most people can shoot a rifle or large pattern pistol much faster than a handgun lacking a brace- hence why nearly no military uses full-auto handguns (MP7 does not count as they are outfitted with a PDW stock) but rifles are commonly full-auto. Shotguns simply lack capacity to be substantially useful in a looting-defense situation, and 90% of shotguns don’t accept box magazines which means either expensive shell staging equipment and lots of reload training or fumbling with loose shells- no, I would prefer to just drop a magazine and shove 45 rounds back in (40rd PMAG with +5 TTI baseplate)
Interesting, why is your 300 BLK Supersonic quieter than a handgun? Supressed?

I have a 16" carbine in 300 BLK and I find that supersonic ammo is just as loud as any other AR. Genuine curious question (I'm rather new to 300 BLK, but not new to AR's).

#### tpw2000

##### Member
My apologies, I wrote that at about 3am- yes, it is also suppressed, but because of the extra barrel length and longer suppressor, combined with the ability to time your bolt opening to the most efficient point to limit ejection port gas escaping, it remains quieter than even suppressed supersonic 9mm handguns

#### Mugs914

##### "Use enough dynamite there Butch?"
Im a firm believer in the Rem 870 being the most versatile and economical shotgun that is readily available at reasonable prices. It also has a record as a solid and reliable shotgun, and its also gots so many accessories for it that you can personalize it to do whatever you want.
I would agree and include the Mossberg 500 as an equal or very close second. I love my 500...

#### Mugs914

##### "Use enough dynamite there Butch?"
Speaking of...

That there's a Texas toolbox!

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
I would agree and include the Mossberg 500 as an equal or very close second. I love my 500...
The Mossberg has definitely been around for quite a while, and its not a bad gun either.

#### John Kemker

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Speaking of...View attachment 419363

That there's a Texas toolbox!
Your bio says Temple, (between Austin and Waco, for the heathen) but the can of Cafe' Du Mond says you've a taste for N'Awlins coffee, which I would have thought would put you closer to Beaumont and Port Arthur, maybe as far west as Houston. Spent some time out in East Texas, Mugs? (I was born in Houston, paternal grandfather is buried in Port Arthur.)

#### Winston

##### Lorenzo von Matterhorn
Heres the problem with a weapon mounted light...unless its so bright as to be painful it just gives me an aiming point, aim center of the light and most likely hit the target behind the light.
Yep and that's why I saw on one of the gun shows on cable that the FBI [or some LE force] has the philosophy of holding a flashlight high up and away from their body. Of course, that's with a one handed hold on a handgun which won't be sufficient with a long gun.

#### richP

##### Well-Known Member
The biggest reason to "not" have a weapons-mounted light is because you are literally pointing a gun at someone when you are just trying to illuminate them. Do that to a PO, and your'e bound to get yourself shot. So for carry purposes, it's a non-starter. For a bump-in-the-night scenario, it might make more sense. Most lights these days have enough power to blind someone in a dark environment, so I wouldn't worry too much about the light being a target.
The most important thing to do is practice with system that you plan on using. I shoot a lot of IDPA matches, and they do have occasionally have "dark" or low-light stages. You'd be amazed at how many gun enthusiasts cannot or have never shot using a flashlight. They usually fumble around for a while, try to align everything, and never realize that it takes them a good 10-20 seconds to get the first shot off. Low-smoke ammo is also mandatory when using a bright light of any kind.

#### rfjustin

##### Well-Known Member
Good fun out to 325 yards...

#### grouch

##### Well-Known Member
I can't believe people are debating a weapon mounted light. Any firearm intended to be used as a self defense weapon needs a light. If it is a long gun (preferably) then it MUST have a light mounted.

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
I can't believe people are debating a weapon mounted light. Any firearm intended to be used as a self defense weapon needs a light. If it is a long gun (preferably) then it MUST have a light mounted.
Why MUST it have a light?

#### grouch

##### Well-Known Member
You would shoot in the dark at something you can't ID?

#### Speaknoevil

##### Well-Known Member
Flashlights are good for racoons.

#### OverTheTop

##### Well-Known Member
Flashlights are good for racoons.
Hit them rather than shoot them?

#### OverTheTop

##### Well-Known Member
Why MUST it have a light?
Makes sense for target ID I suppose, and you can always leave it off if the circumstance warrants I guess.

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
If they (intruder)doesn't immediately respond to a Challenge or have not Identified themselves before entering my home unannounced they are already endagering their life The only ways into my home once its dark require breaking something to get in (window, door lock and chain), and the dog has already notified me they dont belong. Using a light in the dark ruins your ability to see in low light immediately.

#### grouch

##### Well-Known Member
There are many stories of people mistakenly entering the wrong home and getting pegged. Maybe that won't happen in your personal situation but where and how I live, I cannot take that chance. Any drunk college kid with earbuds blasting could conceivably enter the wrong place and not respond to a challenge. People that make their livings using long guns all say light makes right. I'd rather have one mounted and not need it than the other way around. After all Clint Smith says so. As far as ruining your ability to see in low light, it impacts the person looking at the light far more than the person pointing it and that is a risk I am willing to assume. After all, I have a light and all.

#### rfjustin

##### Well-Known Member
Makes sense for target ID I suppose, and you can always leave it off if the circumstance warrants I guess.
"if the circumstance warrants" is the million dollar question in the "what-if" gun debates. There is no best solution that is going to cover all possible scenarios of "what-if." Taking the time to consider the endless number of "what-if" scenarios just leads to analysis paralysis IMO.

A weapon is a tool, much like a hammer, is only as good as the carpenter. Training and trigger time (even dry fire) is the best option to be prepared if something goes sideways. If your weapon has a light, train with it. You decide dynamically if it is appropriate to implement it or not.

#### MikeyDSlagle

##### Well-Known Member
There are many stories of people mistakenly entering the wrong home and getting pegged. Maybe that won't happen in your personal situation but where and how I live, I cannot take that chance. Any drunk college kid with earbuds blasting could conceivably enter the wrong place and not respond to a challenge. People that make their livings using long guns all say light makes right. I'd rather have one mounted and not need it than the other way around. After all Clint Smith says so. As far as ruining your ability to see in low light, it impacts the person looking at the light far more than the person pointing it and that is a risk I am willing to assume. After all, I have a light and all.
They can't mistakenly go through a locked door or a window...
I'm not getting into the debate but curious what is meant by the light makes right statement.
I can only think of a few people that make livings using long guns that do not need a light.
Professional hunters and competition shooters sure don't need one
Military? They have NVGs and thermals. I see very few weapon mounted lights, because it gives away their position.
Law enforcement? Possibly SWAT or the like, but those make up a small portion.
Who did I miss? What am I missing?

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