# Guess what *I* found!

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#### Neil

##### Well-Known Member
Well, we were having a little family reunion, and we went for a tour of our host's barn... I see all the power tools, yadda yadda yadda.... Then we go up to the top story, which is all storage... And there is a huge tube lying right there.... 8 or 9 feet long, 6.5" OD, 6" ID, quarter inch thick walls, and stronger than heck. So I ask him what its from... He says its from some carpet he bought years ago, and he saved the tube for some reason, and said I could have it if I wanted. You obviously know what the awnser was. The thing weighs 14 pounds, and is obviously too big for me to make right now... So I start thinking about what the heck to do with such an enormous tube... I toy around with the usual.... "IQSY Tomahawk", "stubby Fatboy type rocket" blah blah blah... Then this thought.... A thought that hasnt popped into my head since LDRS.

L3

Well, I thought the tube was way to heavy to use for anything...But then I start simming out a basic design to get the feel for this size rocket, just to see what it would do... So I load in the smallest M in the rsim database, an M1550 redline... "altitude: 14000". (insert confused look here) So I add some more weight in the form of fiberglass and other junk, bringing the rocket from 20 or 30 something pounds to 50 pounds even... That goes about 5K, wich isnt too bad.... So if I reinforce the crap out of this tube, tip to tip glass, glassed tube, etc etc etc, it could work.

That was good enough to keep me from chopping the tube into 3' lenths to make stubby rockets out of....

So now the tube is wrapped in a load of bubble wrap, and is sitting on my shelf for 5-7 more years, when I will start my L3 work.

So now I have a really big tube sitting in my basement. Any ideas on how to make sure it stays straight for half a dozen years while I age up a bit? Would it be a good idea to put it right next to the dehumidifier?

Heres the rocksim I made just for the heck of it (I was bored).

I think the name "Armageddon" suits it perfectly, dont you?

Oh, and I also scored an 8' long 2" diameter tube (which, through some miracle, is still unbent and perfectly round), and half a dozen more 5" diameter 36" long tubes from a build site... The 5" tubes are going right next to the 6.5" tube for a while, but the 2" tube will become a rocket pretty soon... Ill have to cut it a little shorter so it doesent bend as much, but itll still be nice and sleek...

#### BlueNinja

##### Well-Known Member
Maybe, for your L3 project, you could upscale something. Does 98mm Deuce come to mind?

#### Neil

##### Well-Known Member
Already thought of that. You cant do clusters for your L3 project. Same goes for airstarts and 2 stagers, IIRC.

#### karatekicker271

##### Well-Known Member
why cant you do clusters?

#### wwattles

##### Well-Known Member
Neil,

As far as where to store the thing is concerned, the dryer the climate the better. As far as HOW to store it, any place you lean it will cause it to slowly warp. I'd recommend getting a piece of steel pipe from your local hardware store that is about 6 inches longer than the total length of the tube, attach a few inches of string to it, and hang it from a pair of eyebolts that are screwed into the ceiling or a rafter somewhere. That way, it's out of the way (nothing gonna fall on it or get set on it), and it's supported.

WW

#### Ryan S.

##### Well-Known Member
why not use regular tubes for your rockets. It is much easier, plus you can buy parts for it, and your rocket will be lighter, in the end.

#### edwardw

##### Well-Known Member
If you ever build this - why have the drogue at the top? Then you have to add shear pins to the fin section to keep the upper tube on. You don't want them to separate by accident and pop your main at 5K. Just an idea.

So this tube weighs 14 lbs? 6" tube from Giant Leap is $35 for 4 feet. I think they weigh in at 4 lbs-ish. Not bad for a big project. Throw some glass on there and your fine. And if you go that route you don't have to make a lot of custom parts. Personally, I'm all for scratch building, but I have realized what I thought I was saving in$ cost me in time to make all the parts.

Edward

#### Karl

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Originally posted by karatekicker271
why cant you do clusters?
Because you have to have a motor that uses a motor of M to O impulse. This total impulse can not be obtained by using a large amount of motors to reach the Level3 cert code.
Karl

#### Missileman

##### Well-Known Member
Ok not to beat a dead dog but back to the cluster question.
Say you build an upscale duece with 98mm mounts.
Can you L3 cert with a cluster of 2 M motors?
In fact thinking back (I may be wrong) but didn't Wedge Oldham cert L3 with his Herc. that was both clustered and staged?

#### Karl

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I think that 2 M's would roughly be the impulse of a N motor ( N being twice the power of a M ) . So yes I think you can aslong as one of the motors is more or equal to a M but not over the impulse of a O.

Karl

#### xenon

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by missileman

In fact thinking back (I may be wrong) but didn't Wedge Oldham cert L3 with his Herc. that was both clustered and staged?
No, he was going to, but a few months before he was going to, the Bod passed a new rule that basicly said no two stage rockets for L3 certs whatsoever. He quickly built a new rocket so he could still fly the other one.

You can cluster, but only if you need it to obtain the proper thrust to weight ratio

#### Neil

##### Well-Known Member
Well, thats just what I heard at a launch. I sure dont want to mess with clusters or airstarts or two stagers on my L3 cert flight... Just making a rocket to fly on an M without shredding is hard enough, I dont see a need to make it more complicated than that...

Considering that if I used a rocket this size with an M, It would need to be at least 50 pounds to keep it under a mile, lighter Giant Leap tubes wouldent neccesarily be better.

Steel piping? hm... Thatd be a little heavy/expensive, wouldent it? What if I just tied a few corners of a blanket to the ceiling like a sling and set it up there? Would that give me the same effect? It has bubble wrap all over it, so it cant really get dinged up too bad...

Well, I put the drouge at the top, thats why the drouge is at the top It doesent matter, since I proabably wont even use that design when it comes time, if I even HAVE the design when it comes time... Itll be another 6 or 8 years at least, im guessing...

But how often does a tube like this fall into your hands? Even if I dont make my L3 cert project out of it, im proabably gonna use it for something...

#### Stymye

##### Well-Known Member
your gonna hang a tube you found in a barn, for 8 years in your parents garage for your level 3 cert?I have doubt that it will stay straight, nomatter what you do, after that amount of time.

I used to have a tube fetish myself, anything that was round and had a hole thru it ,you can find tubes everywhere! I would drag them home to the garage and add to the pile... and they just set there for 2-3 years ...

most were very heavy, hard to finish , curved, and dirty.
plus they required special cones and rings. most are not laminated very well so they are weak and unravel easy.I found some would start to seperate internally after I cut them

I finally threw most of them out . it's so much easier to work with a tube designed for the purpose (plus I have more room now.)

I'm sure you could build a rocket from them but it's not the ideal material

#### scm86

##### Well-Known Member
Any one have tips for unbending tubes? i have a huge 5.375" tube that has enuff bend in the middle to be noticeable, its sitting witht he high side up in the garage, on some folding tables so it has even support if it ever straightens out, wondering if theres a better way to do it...

Scott McNeely

#### Smokin' Rockets

##### Well-Known Member
No two stagers or complex rockets (clusters, air starts, etc) for Tripoli L3. Not sure about NAR.

....Bill

#### Todd Moore

##### Well-Known Member
I'm not a TAP, but.......

Complex rockets ARE allowed for TRA L3 certs, as long as:

1) One of the installed motors is a least an M class motor, and
2) The other motors are shown to be required for flight.

I can't find the actual rule on the TRA website, but this is from the TAP pre-flight review:

E. Motor
a. Is the motor (or motors) suitable for the rocket?
b. Are the motors Tripoli Certified?
c. ......

The fact that you can't find the actual L3 "rule book" on the TRA website is irritating. If the rule has been changed not allowing complex L3 flights, then fine. It might be appropriate, however, to find a way to let everyone know what the rules actually are

#### Neil

##### Well-Known Member
Well, it was a TRA launch that I heard that at, so thats proabably the case.

Where can I buy Unistrut? Home Depot? I could send my dad to go get some right now if your sure they sell it there. His office is a hundred yards away from a Home Depot.... Quite handy for rocket parts that I need right away...

A

#### Austin

The same applies to NAR...no clustered flights for Level 3 certification. You must fly a single stage, single motor model.

Carl

#### Neil

##### Well-Known Member
Thats what I thought.

Does the same apply to L1 and L2? I would think so...

A

#### Austin

Originally posted by Neil
Thats what I thought.

Does the same apply to L1 and L2? I would think so...

No...you can fly clusters or staged rockets for your L1 or L2 cert with the NAR, as long as the "TOTAL" impulse falls within the range for the level you are attempting. This also includes single use, reloadable or Hybrid motors for both Level 1 and Level 2.

Carl

#### jetra2

##### Well-Known Member
Carl,

I'm just trying to get this straight...

So, for an L1 cert, I could fly a 2x G64 cluster, successfully, and get a L1, or stage a G80 to a G64 and get it?

Jason

#### DPatell

##### Well-Known Member
In order to certify, the rocket must have a single motor in it of the desired level. Such as, a level one cert can contain a cluster,but one of the motors must be an H or an I.

Example:

H128 and two F21's.

Combining motors (Ex. G64's) in order to certify is not allowed.

A

#### Austin

Dan is correct...at least one of the motors in a cluster must be at the level you wish to cert...at least one H or I motor in the cluster for Level 1 and at least one J-K-L in the cluster for a Level 2 attempt.

All of this info is posted on the NAR website...you guys need to visit it more often.

Carl

#### Missileman

##### Well-Known Member
Neal,
I Buy Unistrut from an electrical supply house but I do believe Home Depot does carry it. Should be near the eletrical supplies.
Edit: In fact come to think of it I bought quite a few Unistrut fittings from HD so I am sure they carry the rails as well.

#### Neil

##### Well-Known Member
Anyone ever heard of B-Line? I hear its better... Where can I get that?