# Gorilla Motors- new manufacturer?

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#### marvSRG

##### Well-Known Member
I was just browsing the TRA motor cert page and saw that a new manufacturer was on the way....Gorilla Rocket Motors. Says that they're by Jim Harris, whoever that is. Anyone know about these guys? Also I was reminded of an old question...they have "Grey Hound" propellant listed under AMW designations. Anyone know about this stuff????

#### JDcluster

##### Well-Known Member
ALL I know right now is that he's making loads for AMW & Loki Cases without their approval.

JD

#### solrules

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by JDcluster
ALL I know right now is that he's making loads for AMW & Loki Cases without their approval.
JD
Not to be confused with Guerilla Rocket Motors

#### Loki

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by JDcluster
ALL I know right now is that he's making loads for AMW & Loki Cases without their approval.

JD
And just how do you know that?

Did you talk to AMW and Loki and ask them?

Just passing on unsubstantiated rumors?

Or are you just pulling that out of your butt?

-JT

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Loki
And just how do you know that?

Did you talk to AMW and Loki and ask them?

Just passing on unsubstantiated rumors?

Or are you just pulling that out of your butt?

-JT
ouch...lol...lol (sorry jd)

I am glad that you and Tony haunt this place on a regular basis...now if we could talk you guy's into a TRF discount...

#### KermieD

##### Well-Known Member
Just to clarify, then, can I take it the permission to use Loki cases has been granted, or is Gorilla not using Loki cases?

#### rrocket

##### Well-Known Member
For the record.

Jim Harris has never, to the best of my memory, ever contacted, or discussed using AMW Production Hardware for a line of propellant.

Without some type of agreement, this could be a bad situation for all AMW customers, as well as other mfgs. customers.

I am a proponent of some level of "cross compatability".

BUTT;
As the name implies, cross compatability, implies you have a developed product line of your own.
There bye, having a shared equity base(assuming a resonable customer base)
Without some type of agreement, I see few options for hardware mfgs.

"NO Guaranty" on Hardware.

Let's see? Who saves money??

Now lets bring in the Lawyers;

Where does the burden of Responsability lie??

Let's open this up for some CONSTRUCTIVE input.
Pro/Con

Ever wonder why AMW didn't produce loads for AT??
NOT from the lack of requests!!

Paul Robinson
Pres. AMW Inc.

#### DynaSoar

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by rrocket
For the record.

Jim Harris has never, to the best of my memory, ever contacted, or discussed using AMW Production Hardware for a line of propellant.

Without some type of agreement, this could be a bad situation for all AMW customers, as well as other mfgs. customers.

I am a proponent of some level of "cross compatability".

BUTT;
As the name implies, cross compatability, implies you have a developed product line of your own.
There bye, having a shared equity base(assuming a resonable customer base)
Without some type of agreement, I see few options for hardware mfgs.

"NO Guaranty" on Hardware.

Let's see? Who saves money??

Now lets bring in the Lawyers;

Where does the burden of Responsability lie??

Let's open this up for some CONSTRUCTIVE input.
Pro/Con

Ever wonder why AMW didn't produce loads for AT??
NOT from the lack of requests!!

Paul Robinson
Pres. AMW Inc.
Considering the amount of legal disclaimer you've got on your site regarding people just looking at your site *, I would imagine you have access to sufficient legal counsel to write a common warranty that says use of propellants other than those approved by AMW void the warranty and release you from liability. After that, if people want to use your casings packed with boogers and crushed railroad flare, the joke's on them.

* Geez Louise, I have NEVER seen such disclaimer for simply reading a web site. In fact I've rarely seen any. Some landshark has you paying him to make you paranoid. Disclaimer aside, the engine noises sent with the pages are really annoying when arriving without warning, as well as impolite at best towards people still using dialup.

##### Well-Known Member
Welcome Paul

I hope that you stay around. This forum and rocketry in general benefits when a manufacture has an easy way to access a good-sized chunk of their customer base in a generally constructive environment.

I have a second hobby and it is one of the most regulated industries on the planet, had not the manufactures worked as a team for the benefit of the sport it would have gone the way of the dodo bird long ago. Constructive and equitable agreements between the principles are almost a requirement for such a niche market. The lack of these agreements, in my opinion, would eventually lead to self-destruction of the industry from profiteers and cheats that ONLY want to grab the cash and run to the next "source of income". Profit is a good thing, but survival of the market is required

Once again welcome and I look forward to your input.

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by DynaSoar
.

* Geez Louise, I have NEVER seen such disclaimer for simply reading a web site. In fact I've rarely seen any. Some landshark has you paying him to make you paranoid. Disclaimer aside, the engine noises sent with the pages are really annoying when arriving without warning, as well as impolite at best towards people still using dialup.
Hey Dyno,

I realize that down in Texas a mans word may still have some meaning but in a large share of this country he could probably get sued for the trauma that he has caused the tree huggers by associating rockets with animals. That seemed like boiler plate disclaimer stuff to me and sounds better than your on your own here. It is pretty much what I put on all of my website work with mods for the particular industry. (And you did have to look for it)

Now the sound file on the navigation page.

#### rbeckey

##### Well-Known Member
Ok, so I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I don't understand that "disclaimer," if that is what it is. I get it up to "No guaranty on hardware." What is the point of what comes after that? How does it relate to the first, more intelligible part?

#### JDcluster

##### Well-Known Member
Sorry if I stepped on any toes, heard it through the grape vine.

JD

Originally posted by Loki
And just how do you know that?

Did you talk to AMW and Loki and ask them?

Just passing on unsubstantiated rumors?

Or are you just pulling that out of your butt?

-JT

#### Bowhunter

##### Well-Known Member
Guys I understand that we all have issues with motor manuf. I would like to point out that there are plp from different motor manuf that are members here in the fourm and it is an insult to them if you slam (degrade for what the do) You should be thankfull that they are here to answer guestions.

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Bowhunter
Guys I understand that we all have issues with motor manuf. I would like to point out that there are plp from different motor manuf that are members here in the fourm and it is an insult to them if you slam (degrade for what the do) You should be thankfull that they are here to answer guestions.

Agreed!!!!

#### Loki

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by rbeckey
Ok, so I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I don't understand that "disclaimer," if that is what it is. I get it up to "No guaranty on hardware." What is the point of what comes after that? How does it relate to the first, more intelligible part?
Paul made some valid points, that I'll attempt to clarify.

First, if you mix and match loads and hardware from different manufacturers, and you suffer a cato, who should make good on the warranty? As a manufacturer I can only think of one response, nobody. In order for a Loki warranty to be valid, everything (load and hardware) must be Loki brand.

Second, and much stickier, is the question of legal liability. If you injure someone, or yourself, with a Gorilla load in an AMW case, who gets sued? The answer is always "everyone". So if a propellant manufacturer starts making loads for other companies' hardware, it unfairly increases the potential liability risk to those companies.

#### Chuck Rudy

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Loki

First, if you mix and match loads and hardware from different manufacturers, and you suffer a cato, who should make good on the warranty? As a manufacturer I can only think of one response, nobody. In order for a Loki warranty to be valid, everything (load and hardware) must be Loki brand.

Second, and much stickier, is the question of legal liability. If you injure someone, or yourself, with a Gorilla load in an AMW case, who gets sued? The answer is always "everyone". So if a propellant manufacturer starts making loads for other companies' hardware, it unfairly increases the potential liability risk to those companies.
If a propellant maker does just as is decribed and sells their loads without their own line of casings all the hardware/propellant manufacturers will have to sell everything with no warranty/guarantee and keep themselves at a "use at your own risk" arm's distance from anyone using their casings. When that happens we all lose. Every one of us.

#### rbeckey

##### Well-Known Member
Jeff,
Thanks for the clarification. I get it now.

#### rstaff3

##### Oddroc-eteer
Yeah, and lawsuits are totally out of hand. IIRC written disclaimers are not perfect protection from liability, but I don't know in this case. I do know that it sucks to have to defend against frivilous suits!

#### AlexM

##### Well-Known Member
Oh, Dont worry, I figured that they were probably fake. I just thoght that they highlighted the problems with today's court system.

#### gorillamotors

##### Well-Known Member
I thought that I would introduce myself and since there was some confusion my company Gorilla Rocket Motors, Inc.

As for myself: I spent about 8 years on active duty in the USAF flying C-130s and then transferred into the USAF reserves for 10.5 years flying C-5s as an instructor pilot. I then transferred to Florida as a liaison between the USAF and the Civil Air Patrols where I am currently at. I have been flying with the airlines for over 16 years now flying B-767s. I have earned Masters Degrees in Aeronautical & Electrical Engineering as well as a PhD in Chemistry.

As for Gorilla Rocket Motors: I have been flying rockets my whole life and high power the last 6-7 years. I have been using my own propellants for almost 5-6 years at experimental launches when I can. So, I decided to manufacture propellants. Since I had been using AMW cases and reloads since they came out I decided to use these cases. I own several of each AMW 54/1050, 1400, 1750, 2550, 75/2500, 3500, and 6000 cases.

I am tired of working for others and I am just someone that wants to start his own business. That's it!!

Lt Col Jim Harris

#### gorillamotors

##### Well-Known Member

I use AMW and Loki cases ONLY for testing at this time. Whether I make reloads for AMW and/or LOKI casings is still to be determined. I use AMW and LOKI because I believe them to be the best made on the market.

On the manufacturing side, I plan to make both single-use and reloads for J-P motors in a red flame, green flame, blue flame, a white smoke, black smoke, and maybe a few other variations. In the 54mm/ 3, 4, 5, or 7 grains; 75mm/ 3 or 5 grains; 98mm/ 3, 4, or 5 grains; 152mm/ 3, 4, or 5 grains. They will range from J-P motors.

Jim

#### Elapid

##### Well-Known Member
of propellants for a particular set of cases, i think those cases are going to sell a LOT better than ones with only a couple choices.

More = Better

that's one thing i dislike about the AT product.. only 3 or 4 choices per casing... red, white, blue, smokey...

it would be nice also to have green, sparky, long burn, short burn, core burners, moon burners, c-slots...

it seems to me like there's room for everyone in this pool.

#### quickburst

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
So what was the answer? Does the new guy have both Loki and AMW permission to make reloads for thier casings?

This could turn into a nightmare for both the flyer and the manufacturor. I see hardware warranties flying away. Can't blame Loki or AMW, why should they warrant someone elses work? I wouldn't.

What about CTI? They are making reloads for AT hardware. No warranty issues there though. Anthony claims he will warrant Aerotech hardware damaged by his reloads. He also claims he will replace any damaged AT hardware with CTI hardware. He also says there will be no charge for the upgrade : )

Must be a little friction there.

QuickBurst

#### solrules

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Elapid
of propellants for a particular set of cases, i think those cases are going to sell a LOT better than ones with only a couple choices.

More = Better

that's one thing i dislike about the AT product.. only 3 or 4 choices per casing... red, white, blue, smokey...

it would be nice also to have green, sparky, long burn, short burn, core burners, moon burners, c-slots...

it seems to me like there's room for everyone in this pool.
...and then you would need a new graphite nozzle for each type of propellant formula/grain geometry.

It would quite a bit more expensive for the end user. The only practical way to make a bunch of different formulas/geometries for a given motor without an inital price of the nozzle for each load would be to have single use phonealic nozzles.

#### Loki

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by QuickBurst
So what was the answer? Does the new guy have both Loki and AMW permission to make reloads for thier casings?

This could turn into a nightmare for both the flyer and the manufacturor. I see hardware warranties flying away. Can't blame Loki or AMW, why should they warrant someone elses work? I wouldn't.

QuickBurst
Loki, AMW, and Gorilla are in discussion on these matters. In principle Loki Research has no problem with cross-compatibility between manufacturers and I think it will be a Good Thing(tm) for the consumer. However, the devil is in the details, and there is much that needs to be worked out between the respective manufacturers.

Stay tuned, I imagine there will be official news within the next couple of weeks.

-Jeff Taylor
Loki Research

#### Dr Ryan

##### Member
Originally posted by QuickBurst

This could turn into a nightmare for both the flyer and the manufacturor. I see hardware warranties flying away. Can't blame Loki or AMW, why should they warrant someone elses work? I wouldn't.

[/B]

I've been to too many EX launches where the majority of EX cases are AMWs. A lot of guys push the maximum limits on these cases with pressures and temperatures. So when they go to a normal launch with certified reloads from AMW if something happens to the case they blame it on AMWs reloads or cases. I have seen this happen too many times where they intend to complain to AMW to get some kind of refund.

I'm sure Paul knows this happens too many times. If I were him or any other hardware manufacturer I WOULD NOT have any type of warranty on the cases because I know what people are doing. I would probably just send them 2 reloads of equivalent size and that would be the extent of the warranty.

#### Hospital_Rocket

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Loki
...Good Thing(tm)...
You can actually trade mark that?

wow...

Back on topic, I would think a generic standard for motor hardware would be kind of neat if the various motor makers could agree. Perhaps a good starting point would be middle range motors (high G to low I) where cross compatability is guaranted. Then the various manufacturers could keep the flow of motors intact even during problem periods. This would also serve to drive prices down, and encourage growth into higher power flying. There is a "Gulp" factor when you see the price of your first G80.

As interest in the big flyers expands, then the esoteric manufacturer specific hardware comes into play. The serious hobbyinst will find something they like and stick with it.

I urge you motor builders to remember that there is a large segment of potential market who will never (much as we might want to) fly a $400 motor. We will, however, easily fly dozens of$10 motors.

Just my two bits.

A

#### Ryan S.

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket
I urge you motor builders to remember that there is a large segment of potential market who will never (much as we might want to) fly a $400 motor. We will, however, easily fly dozens of$10 motors.
I think motor makers have taken this into account, but you also need to look at things from their perspectives, making motors is not easy, and the hardness grows with the decreased size. If you are pouring, like most manufacturers do, it is easier to pour into wider tubes, as this decreases bubbles and spillage, and just takes less time. When you get smaller tbes you need to push the propellant out of a caulking gun like apparatus which is a general PITA. So, as I see it, it would be much easier for manufacturers to make fewer large motors and sell those few, than to sell alot of smaller motors and make them, the profit will be about the same, but the work for the smaller motors will be much larger

just my take on it