Going For My Canadian Level 1-3 HPR Certification! - Wildman Shape Shifter Jr...

Discussion in 'High Power Rocketry (HPR)' started by rocketgeek101, Nov 11, 2013.

Help Support The Rocketry Forum by donating:

  1. Nov 11, 2013 #1

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    Welcome to my first HPR build!

    Intro:
    At the last club launch I attended, someone recommended that I attempt to achieve my HPR certification(s). I couldn't see any reason why not too. I have the funds, and had already been toying with the idea. All I needed was a little push in that direction.

    I've always liked the look of the Wildman Shape Shifter, and I suppose I mentioned it to my parents, because for my 17th birthday a few days ago, they got me said rocket! Thanks to them, my level 1 project has just become a whole lot cheaper!:grin: (And I may now be able to free up some cash for one of those new iPad minis!)

    Now I must say, I am really pleased with the kit! upon opening, I was pleasantly surprised to find that all of the components are made out of black fiberglass (not mentioned on the website), and that the nose included an aluminium tip (again not mentioned). Did I just get lucky and get a share of a limited run of kits, or is this how all of Tim's kits are made now?

    I have plenty of experience with F & G motors (though for some reason I have yet to fly an E:blush:), and feel that I am now ready to undertake this project.

    I should point out that in Canada HPR certification levels work a little differently:

    Level 1 = H impulse motors
    Level 2 = I impulse motors
    Level 3 = J, K, and L impulse motors
    Level 4 = M, N, and O impulse motors


    In this thread when I mention cert levels, I'll be referring to the Canadian (Canadian Association of Rocketry (CAR)) ones; so if I say level 3, I'm referring to J, K, and L impulse (which is equivalent to an NAR or TRA level 2).

    Before I get started on the build, I'll need to order some stuff such as: a good quality epoxy, Aero Pack retainer, parachutes, and the stuff needed to build the avionics bay.

    In Canada the written test is with level 1, not level 2 like most of you guys down in the states, so I have recently started studying for that.

    Since I'm still under 18 (and by the time my 18th birthday comes 'round next year It'll be building season), I'll be getting a Jr cert. Bill Daigle, who is the CAR area director for my region has agreed to be my mentor.

    This rocket would be capable of getting me up to a level 3 certification. I kind of like the idea of doing the first 3 levels on this rocket, but on a J it would go pretty high and would need to be flown at Rage at the Gage (our biggest launch of the year, which takes place on military training grounds on labour day weekend), as our smaller flying field doesn't have a waiver that's big enough), so I'm still undecided about that. I'm thinking I'll definitely try to get level 1 and 2 with this rocket though.

    If all goes well I'm looking to have the level 1 and 2 flights in the springtime next year, and if I decide too, level 3 at Rage at the Gage (though the level 1 and 2 might just end up getting pushed to Rage if I take too long with the build or the weather doesn't cooperate in the springtime (which is a good possibility)).

    Now for the questions:

    [*] Can Aeropoxy be tinted black? I'm thinking I might not want to paint this beautiful Carbon-like glass; in which case I would like the fillets to be black (though I might just end up painting it, since I'm not the neatest when it comes to epoxy... It just seems to get everywhere...) Also would a pint size of Aeropoxy be sufficient for this build, or would I need a quart?


    [*] How does Rocketpoxy compare to Aeropoxy? Is one better (stronger) then the other?


    [*] What size parachutes are you guys using in your Shape Shifters? I know my ideal chute size will depend on the final weight, but I would like to get an idea of what works so I can order the chutes with the other stuff and not pay shipping charges multiple times.


    [*] What is the absolute best sandpaper grit to use when roughing up the fiberglass surface for epoxy adhesion? I've heard some say it's 60 grit, while others say it's 80, and yet others say its 100 or even finer...

    That's all of the questions I have at the moment. But I'm sure I'll think up many more along the way...

    Now on to the pictures!

    The kit as it comes packaged:
    SDC10096.jpg

    The obligatory parts shot:
    SDC10107.jpg

    This thing is a lot bigger then my only other Wildman rocket; the Mini Eagle Claw:
    SDC10111.jpg

    I just love this beautiful long and black filament wound nosecone with the sexy aluminum tip!
    SDC10102.jpg


    Please feel free to comment at any time during the build. Constructive criticism is also welcome.:)

    Sebastian
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2014
  2. Nov 11, 2013 #2

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    I'm planning to copy GaryT's (who designed this rocket) paint scheme, as it looks awesome (and the decal set available from Stickershock23 is only $15)!
    [​IMG]

    0012.jpg
     
  3. Nov 12, 2013 #3

    chris m

    chris m

    chris m

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    1,809
    Likes Received:
    2
    If it was me I would do low and slow for your certs . Go with a 3-4 " kit ie wild man ,comp not the Jr ' s they will all do fine but altitude would be up there on the smaller diameter kits
     
  4. Nov 12, 2013 #4

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    Yeah, a lot of people have told me that. Honestly though, it's not what I want to do. I'm a believer in flying what you truly want - cert flight or not. (Plus, on an H it will only get around 2000', which is not that high in my book.)
     
  5. Nov 13, 2013 #5

    Spurkey

    Spurkey

    Spurkey

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    0
    It can probably be tinted, Rocketpoxy only needs 2 or 3 drops of colouring to turn it black. Honestly for a cert rocket I would worry about building it to ensure successful cert first - you have to accept you're going to make mistakes and you'll learn things along the way and the next one you build will be even better. You could just carefully paint the fillets black once the kit's complete just to keep things simple. That's pretty much my general advice for any cert flight attempt: keep it simple.

    Someone recently pointed me to this site:

    http://www.jcrocket.com/adhesives.shtml

    For bonding composites it seems the 'pro' epoxies are more or less equivalent - get whichever one cost you less to ship across the border. On that same note a pint is plenty to complete this kit however consider how many other kits you'll be building in the future as well as how much fibreglass/carbon fibre layups you'll be doing (those require more epoxy), a quart might be a better investment again because of shipping.

    You could look up RockSim or OpenRocket design files that people have posted of this kit, both programs are pretty good at estimating final weight. Your assembled kit will be off by a few ounces but at this size that won't make any difference in chute selection. With a CF kit it can take a bit more abuse on landing meaning you could use a smaller chute if you wanted to reduce weight to get more altitude but for a cert flight I wouldn't recommend it. Stick to a 15-20 foot/sec descent rate and you'll be fine.

    One thing about this hobby is there is no 'absolute best'. :) It comes down more to technique than anything and a careful eye to what you're starting with: if you have a thin CF/FG tube with little epoxy to key into, less grit with a gentler touch is wiser; if you have a fairly robust tube you can get away with super coarse grit and a more shall we say haphazard sanding approach. The point of roughing up the surface is to give the epoxy something to key into as it cures but you don't want to sand so deep that you expose the fibres since you then run the risk of the whole thing delaminating. The grit number doesn't matter - it's how you use it.

    Hope that helps, keep us posted on your build!
     
  6. Nov 13, 2013 #6

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    Thank you for taking the time to reply Peter. Your post was very informative and helpful. I find it's a little discouraging to have written up a lengthy post, and have 200+ views with only 2 replies...

    Anyhow, I feel that I should clarify on a few things:

    First off, I do intend to keep it simple for the level 1 cert. That is, no dual deploy - just good 'ol motor eject with main at apogee. I only mention dual deploy because the kit comes with an avbay, and I intend to assemble it for the most part (wont bother with getting altimeters and other expensive electronics for it just yet) to give me the ability to fly it dual deploy after the cert (and my level 3, if I decide to do it on this rocket).

    Secondly, I am not committing myself to getting the cert levels all at once. I'm just keeping my options open (Now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure that if buying a motor onsite won't be an option, I'd have to do them at separate times anyway; because I don't think one can buy a level 2 motor before being level 1 certified... Then again, since the motor would be purchased under my mentor's name; that may not be the case. I'll have to check on that).

    Again thanks for looking

    -S
     
  7. Nov 14, 2013 #7

    Danno

    Danno

    Danno

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    2
    I just successfully completed my US Level 1 on this same rocket, so I can share my numbers:

    Motor: Cesaroni Pro38 261H120-14A (9 second delay)
    Altitude: 1428 feet
    Max velocity: 204 mph
    Motor burn time: 2.0 sec
    Peak acceleration: 7.0 G
    Coast time to apogee: 8.2 sec
    Apogee-to-ejection time: 1.9 sec
    Ejection altitude: 1371 feet
    Average descent velocity: 22.4 ft/sec (15.3 mph)
    Total flight duration: 71.4 sec

    It was my first time using the delay-cutting tool, so that might account for the delay coming out a little longer than it should have. I flew the same rocket at Midwest Power the following weekend on an I175 to 3171 feet.

    The 30" Recon parachute that Wildman sells is the perfect size for this rocket. As sturdy as it is, you can get away with more than the usually-recommended 15fps descent rate (see above) and there isn't much room in the 2.1" tube for a larger parachute.

    I am planning to try for my US Level 2 with the same rocket on a J290, which sims to 5500 feet. I would recommend that you weigh and measure your finished rocket and plug those numbers back into your sim - mine was a few inches longer than the published number on the Wildman site and in the stock RockSim file, which affected the sim a little bit.

    Good luck!
     
  8. Nov 14, 2013 #8

    Danno

    Danno

    Danno

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    2
    My build blog and photos can be found here - but I took a lot of guidance from GreenJello's most excellent Wildman Jr. Level 1 build thread here.

    Like you, I did my level 1 single-deploy but am working on getting my dual-deploy system solid for my US level 2. Here is a video of one of my ground tests (without a parachute).
     
  9. Nov 15, 2013 #9

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    Thanks Danno! Nice job with your Shape Shifter. I haven't had the time to look through your build log too thoroughly, but will do that soon. I'll let you know if I have any questions. Good luck with your level 2 (aka 3 eh!). Let me know how it goes!

    Unfortunately, It looks like I'm coming down with a cold; so tomorrow's planned rocket bathing may be put on hold a few days. Oh well, might as well use that time to study for my first aid test in about a week...:sigh:

    Epoxy wise, I'm looking at Rocketpoxy, West Systems, Aeropoxy, and will look at others like System III and Proline before deciding.

    Here are the Pros/Cons of each as I see it:

    Rocketpoxy: Pros: Easiest to use; and supposedly very strong. Cons: Somewhat untested compared to the others, A little expensive for the amount you get (but who knows what will happen with Wildman's black saturday just around the corner:wink:)

    Aeropoxy: Pros: Strongest, least toxic. Cons: I'm told it's a little bit thick to be practical to mix in small amounts, expensive (more so then RocketPoxy).

    West Systems: Pros: Locally available, cheap (relatively - especially if you factor in the shipping cost of the others), pumps are available for easy measuring. Cons: Very thin without added fillers, relatively low heat resistance.

    I'll update this post later to include the others when I've researched them.

    I'm planning to build this mostly stock. Though I'm toying with the idea of ordering a 54mm airframe bulkhead, and trying out my hand at a glueless nosecone. I'll be using an Aeropack for motor retention, and will probably get their 38-29 adapter so I can fly this on some 29mm loads (thinking of using the CTI H159 for my level 1 flight). I'm planning on putting a lot of time and effort into the finish, as a cert rocket should look pretty (at least I think so :)) As mentioned, I'm planning on copying GaryT's paint scheme; though I'm thinking I'll get the decals in chrome or silver instead of green.

    Thanks for looking!
    -S
     
  10. Nov 16, 2013 #10

    CF-105

    CF-105

    CF-105

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2009
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    1
    Seb, I use West Systems on all my HPR rockets (so far anyway). Unless you're going well-past Mach 1, heat is not an issue. If you're really concerned, use JB Weld on parts in contact with the motor mount. Without fillers, West Systems dries clear.

    Also keep in mind where you'll be flying the rocket. A high-altitude flight at a site like Gagetown can make for difficult recovery. Would suck to have a picture-perfect flight & landing, only to never find the rocket. That said, based on Danno's results... 1,400' on an H isn't what I'd consider "high" :)

    Bottom line: you have to be happy with your selection. It's your flight. However, be sure you understand & accept the risks.

    Looking forward to seeing that puppy fly!
     
  11. Nov 16, 2013 #11

    CarVac

    CarVac

    CarVac

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    5,662
    Likes Received:
    2
    Mixing is not hard. Metering out of the cans is hard; that's why the first step is to transfer some into squeeze bottles.
     
  12. Nov 16, 2013 #12

    Aksrockets

    Aksrockets

    Aksrockets

    Now with 8% more aluminum

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,482
    Likes Received:
    5
    If you're getting laminating epoxy, the only thing that West has going for it is it's availability. Other then that, it's an inferior product compared to Aeropoxy Laminating resin. It has a lower TG (120 compared to aeropoxy's 200), harder mix ratio (5:1 vs 3:1) and in my experience "kicks" much easier. It also has a much quicker pot life.

    Alex
     
  13. Nov 16, 2013 #13

    CarVac

    CarVac

    CarVac

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    5,662
    Likes Received:
    2
    The other benefit is for boats: it's completely waterproof instead of mostly; Aeropoxy isn't meant for long-term submersion.
     
  14. Nov 16, 2013 #14

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    Thanks Kevin! Yeah 1,400' isn't high that high in my book either. I've already flown rockets to higher altitudes then that both in Gagetown and Petitcodiac. Considering I build a little on the heavy side, level 1 and 2 should be quite manageable at Petit. If I do decide to attempt level 3 with this, and Danno's sims are correct; slightly under 6000 on a small J should still be trackable from the flight line. It's by no means a big rocket, but it isn't that small either; so with a nice loud noisemaker and a brightly coloured parachute, finding it on the ground will hopefully not be too difficult (I hope). Worst that can happen is I lose the rocket and gain an excuse to build another! Also, Bill told me there would most likely be an HPR launch in Petitcodiac sometime next spring, do you know when that would be more precisely?
     
  15. Nov 16, 2013 #15

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    Yeah, the only reason I'm considering West Systems is because of it's availability locally. I'm not too interested in doing my own layups and such, so it would mostly be for structural work. From what I understand, it's too thin to use for fillets on its own, so fillers would be required. Not something I really want to bother with as it just adds complexity. If I get Aeropoxy I'd get the structural stuff, which is a 1:1 mix ratio.

    Basically what I'd like is a high quality high strength multi-purpose epoxy that is easy to use, preferably isn't too hazardous to ones health, and doesn't require adding fillers and such for fillets, yet remains thin enough for easy usage in general rocket assembly.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2013
  16. Nov 16, 2013 #16

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    You know, that's a pretty good idea!
     
  17. Nov 17, 2013 #17

    CarVac

    CarVac

    CarVac

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    5,662
    Likes Received:
    2
    If you're not going to do much fiberglassing to start, then Aeropoxy ES6209 or presumably Rocketpoxy would be your best bet. Fillers are really irritating because it makes it more difficult to estimate the volume you'll end up with, it slows down your work, and the powders can be downright scary.

    I say "presumably" about Rocketpoxy because I haven't used it myself but have heard positive things about it.
     
  18. Nov 17, 2013 #18

    blackbrandt

    blackbrandt

    blackbrandt

    That Darn College Student

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    9,123
    Likes Received:
    34
    I just have to input one thing into this thread. Please fly either a J825, J570, or J575 in this thing. Please. It would teleport halfway into the next dimension.


    :)


    Matt
     
  19. Nov 17, 2013 #19

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    Yeah, I agree those do seem to be the two best options for what I want to do. Do you know which of the two is less toxic?
     
  20. Nov 17, 2013 #20

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    Sorry, not gonna happen! I much prefer nice longish burning motors...

    EDIT: I also would rather cert on a CTI motor... (I'm guessing those are Aerotech loads?)
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2013
  21. Nov 17, 2013 #21

    blackbrandt

    blackbrandt

    blackbrandt

    That Darn College Student

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Messages:
    9,123
    Likes Received:
    34
    Yep. Aerotech motors.
    (Does a 1.2 second burn on the J825 count as long?:p)
     
  22. Nov 18, 2013 #22

    CarVac

    CarVac

    CarVac

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    5,662
    Likes Received:
    2
    There is no long-burning J in 38mm. Sorry.
     
  23. Nov 18, 2013 #23

    MarkedOne

    MarkedOne

    MarkedOne

    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0

    What about the 567 I125
     
  24. Nov 18, 2013 #24

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    I guess it depends on how one defines long burn. For me it's anything over 2 seconds. One of the motors I'd like to use is CTI's J270 Green^3 load which has a 2.4 sec burn duration (I'm a BIG fan of green flames).
     
  25. Nov 18, 2013 #25

    CarVac

    CarVac

    CarVac

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    5,662
    Likes Received:
    2
    You should check out the I49 and I59...7 and 8 seconds respectively (in an ideal world; in my experience they're faster than that). Very cool motors.
     
  26. Nov 19, 2013 #26

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    I'd love to try those out one day, but not in this rocket! The thrust to weight ratios are dangerously low; 2.42:1 for the I49 and 2.81:1 for the I59 (assuming the weight in the Rocksim file from the Wildman website is similar to what my actual weight will be).
     
  27. Nov 19, 2013 #27

    CarVac

    CarVac

    CarVac

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    5,662
    Likes Received:
    2
    Look at the initial thrust for the I59. It's significantly higher than the average thrust.
     
  28. Nov 19, 2013 #28

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    Well look at that.

    Btw, how does one calculate thrust to weight ratios by hand? I've always just used OpenRocket to calculate it, but really should learn how to do it on my own.

    Thanks
     
  29. Nov 19, 2013 #29

    CarVac

    CarVac

    CarVac

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    5,662
    Likes Received:
    2
    Step 1. Convert units: 1 kg = 9.8 Newtons of weight; 1 pound = 4.4 Newtons of weight
    Step 2. Divide thrust by weight
     
  30. Nov 19, 2013 #30

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    rocketgeek101

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    2,211
    Likes Received:
    13
    Location:
    Eastern Canada
    Thanks. That's easy enough. Knew it was something like that:)
     

Share This Page